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Advise after going - Credit card usage in Europe


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I have been in shops where a US customer has been served by a young shop assistant who is not sure how to deal with a US issued CC and has to get somebody to help.

 

What I really don't understand is why US banks don't automatically issue chip and pin cards when sending a new card. I find not having chip and pin very backward , plus it stopped a lot of card fraud in Europe.

 

Backwards? I might quibble with that. Chip and signature cards are every bit as secure as chip and pin cards with the exception if the physical card itself is actually lost or stolen. US banks claim such fraud is minuscule and simply not worth the hassle of converting the entire payments systems to accommodate pins.

 

Do remember Americans tend to carry more cards than others as many of us search the best rewards possible and best combination of features to our best advantage. I have several different cards and while I'm pretty good at memorizing 4 digit numbers, matching the right pin to the right card might take a lot more concentration. So should I make all the pins the same? Then we have to start setting up systems for changing pins, an added cost to issuers. While it's certainly not impossible to do, it is a greater pain for me than to simply take out the card and wait for the terminal to do its thing, sign the signature slip and be on my way.

 

Are pins more secure? As I just said only if the actual physical card is lost or stolen. Personally, I find the way things are done now in the USA to be more convenient than worrying about pins. In the USA, at most places with the full blessings of matercard and visa, they don't bother with signatures for amounts under $50. Cashiers rarely check signatures anyway and would not say anything even if they are clearly forgeries. It ain't their job. I get peeved sometimes when I'm in London and use my chip and signature card at a self check out (a new concept in Europe in some places) and when finishing the transaction say for £2 or something like that, the message comes up "seek assistance" and I have go wait till some clerk gets off his or her rear end, enters a code, produces a signature slip which he or she might check, not that he or she would do anything about it, to complete the transaction. What a waste for £2. Blame my bank for not issuing a pin? Or blame the stupidity of the system collecting signatures on such small amounts.

 

Again, for uniformity's sake, I wish the US banks had adopted chip and pin. But the system that has been put in place should work everywhere and almost does. And bear in mind, in the USA as in most other places, there is no liability on the part of the customer for fraud. Inconvenient if my card gets hacked. To a small degree, yes. But this is not identity theft and is not worth laying awake at night worrying about it.

 

The bottom line is it is what it is. For those from the USA, chip and signature cards work fine the overwhelming majority of times even in places off the beaten trail. Sometimes just pressing the green button when a terminal asks for a pin with do the trick when it seems the card is being rejected. It just isn't worth worrying about.

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We're probably not going to get past this impasse. You're one of several European based posters who keep warning US cruisers about the difficulty we'll encounter. And US cruisers keep posting that with some very limited exceptions they've had no difficulty using their PIN-less credit cards.

 

I'm not warning anyone, just sharing my experience trying to use my card in a port city. As I said, on the beaten track will be fine, off the beaten track not so much.

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Backwards? I might quibble with that. Chip and signature cards are every bit as secure as chip and pin cards with the exception if the physical card itself is actually lost or stolen. US banks claim such fraud is minuscule and simply not worth the hassle of converting the entire payments systems to accommodate pins.

 

Do remember Americans tend to carry more cards than others as many of us search the best rewards possible and best combination of features to our best advantage. I have several different cards and while I'm pretty good at memorizing 4 digit numbers, matching the right pin to the right card might take a lot more concentration. So should I make all the pins the same? Then we have to start setting up systems for changing pins, an added cost to issuers. While it's certainly not impossible to do, it is a greater pain for me than to simply take out the card and wait for the terminal to do its thing, sign the signature slip and be on my way.

 

Are pins more secure? As I just said only if the actual physical card is lost or stolen. Personally, I find the way things are done now in the USA to be more convenient than worrying about pins. In the USA, at most places with the full blessings of matercard and visa, they don't bother with signatures for amounts under $50. Cashiers rarely check signatures anyway and would not say anything even if they are clearly forgeries. It ain't their job. I get peeved sometimes when I'm in London and use my chip and signature card at a self check out (a new concept in Europe in some places) and when finishing the transaction say for £2 or something like that, the message comes up "seek assistance" and I have go wait till some clerk gets off his or her rear end, enters a code, produces a signature slip which he or she might check, not that he or she would do anything about it, to complete the transaction. What a waste for £2. Blame my bank for not issuing a pin? Or blame the stupidity of the system collecting signatures on such small amounts.

 

Again, for uniformity's sake, I wish the US banks had adopted chip and pin. But the system that has been put in place should work everywhere and almost does. And bear in mind, in the USA as in most other places, there is no liability on the part of the customer for fraud. Inconvenient if my card gets hacked. To a small degree, yes. But this is not identity theft and is not worth laying awake at night worrying about it.

 

The bottom line is it is what it is. For those from the USA, chip and signature cards work fine the overwhelming majority of times even in places off the beaten trail. Sometimes just pressing the green button when a terminal asks for a pin with do the trick when it seems the card is being rejected. It just isn't worth worrying about.

The reason chip and pin were originally used in Europe was to cut the amount of fraud

When cards are lost or stolen. It is also quicker to enter a pin than find a pen to sign a printed slip.

 

As for Americans having more cards, I really don't know if they do or don't. We have three different cards which charge no foreign transaction fees which we only use for holidays. We also have debit and credit cards we only use in the UK.

 

Many places are now becoming cashless societies with more people making contactless transactions. This is definitely the case in the UK and other Northern European countries.

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The reason chip and pin were originally used in Europe was to cut the amount of fraud

When cards are lost or stolen. It is also quicker to enter a pin than find a pen to sign a printed slip.

 

As for Americans having more cards, I really don't know if they do or don't. We have three different cards which charge no foreign transaction fees which we only use for holidays. We also have debit and credit cards we only use in the UK.

 

Many places are now becoming cashless societies with more people making contactless transactions. This is definitely the case in the UK and other Northern European countries.

 

Actually, chip and pin was not developed because of fraud. The communications systems in many parts of the world were not as well developed as they were in the USA back in the early 1980's. USA authorizations were able to go online without much expense because of that. Chip and pin was initially a response to the lack of ability to do real time on line authorizations and it took a while for the current chip, the emv chip, to become the standard as different places experimented with different ways of authorizing credit card payments. By the turn of this century, the emv chip had become sort of the standard and did allow authorizations to be done both on and off line. The USA did find its system with magnetic strips to be sufficient for a long while. Credit card fraud began to spike just past the turn of this century and with many places going chip and pin, credit card hackers found it easier to hack the magnetic strips than the chips. Hence as it developed, there was somewhat less fraud with chip and pin card than magnetic strips. Finally, the USA banks were forced, much against their wills because of the costs involved, to give in. It was also becoming somewhat more problematic to use USA cards lacking chips outside the USA although it never really reached a crisis stage. Just an inconvenience stage.

 

It is the same chip and it is the chip that provides the added security. Pins only come into play if your physical card is lost or stolen. Of course, none of this does any good with online fraud which has spiked dramatically since the introduction of the emv chips. Retinal scans anybody?

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I started this post because we did have a couple of issues, and despite the credit card companies and this site saying I should have no issue, it did happen and I wanted to warn others. I think it is amusing that just because some didn't have an issue, they assume no one else would /should either. Well I did. Granted, it was using various machines instead of in-person. It was in the airport buying train/bus tickets in Copenhagen; it was ATM machines in Berlin. It was just a heads up. geesh, some people are too quick to jump on others. Just was letting others know to be sure to have a pin related card with you. We had our bank atn card with a pin (no, not credit card) with us and used it when we couldn't use the regular credit card.

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It was not my intent to pick on you or to criticize you. If so, I apologize but here's the problem. There are next to no pin preferred credit cards being issued in the USA so that people who suggest make sure you have a pin may cause frustration to some. Almost every credit card being issued in the USA today is signature preferred. Many but by no means a majority have pin capabilities but almost none of the cards being issued by the big credit card banks such as Chase, Citi, Capital One, Bank of America. But is it a good idea to search out, just as a back up if need be, a card with pin capabilities. Absolutely. Also, sometimes at a terminal a pin will be requested and just pressing the enter button will complete the transaction. Not always but sometimes. Just how prevalent it is to not be able to use pinless cards is not clear. But again, thank you for the heads up.

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I was really nervous about this before we left having read all about chip and pin cards in Europe. I did get pins for as many of our cards as possible (all of them now have chips) but we never used them. I did call to check on all of the transaction fees to see which cards should be used for the lowest transaction costs and to report travel to ensure that they wouldn't be declined. We had no trouble -- not even in St. Petersburg. We were in 7 countries (Russia, Germany, Sweden, Finland, Norway and Denmark) and not an ounce of trouble. We carried euros and Swedish kroners in advance but really didn't need them.

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I started this post because we did have a couple of issues, and despite the credit card companies and this site saying I should have no issue, it did happen and I wanted to warn others. I think it is amusing that just because some didn't have an issue, they assume no one else would /should either. Well I did. Granted, it was using various machines instead of in-person. It was in the airport buying train/bus tickets in Copenhagen; it was ATM machines in Berlin. It was just a heads up. geesh, some people are too quick to jump on others. Just was letting others know to be sure to have a pin related card with you. We had our bank atn card with a pin (no, not credit card) with us and used it when we couldn't use the regular credit card.

 

Most were in agreement with what you said. But, as happens whenever this topic is brought up, (and it is brought up pretty frequently) there has to be the at times off topic discussion to diss US banks who haven't jumped on the PIN and chip bandwagon fast enough. Or to slam Americans because we don't universally or consistently use or own PIN and chip cards.

 

The fact is, PIN and chip cards are needed in automated/ "non-staffed" machine locations like ticket machines and self pay gas stations. Other than those, you will not need PIN and chip. We have traveled extensively in Europe over the last 10 years, (over 150 days, cruises and land trips totally over 200 days) and have used our PIN and chip card maybe 10 times, while using our chip and signature card probably over 100 times. We tend to pay cash in small towns (except for hotels/inns/BnBs), and purchases of less than about 25 or 30 euros. So maybe that has protected us from more PIN and chip uses.

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I'm not jumping... I was surprised at how easy it was for us as I was expecting problems. So much so that I got cash in advance (euros and Swedish kroners before changing my mind). To the thread's point, we were unable to purchase public transit passes with credit cards - Europe seems to have a Maestro debit chip/pin card of sort that's really different from ours and I needed to stick local currency into those machines. This worked because we had either tour guides helping us (Oslo, Helsinki & Russia) or we had 20 euro bills for a small group daily pass in Berlin for our 5-some. We used credit cards for a few expensive cab rides (I think around $85 in Swedish kroners to get from the Vasa to the ship in a hurry and $50 at the start of the day to get from the ship to the Sheraton near city hall). We also used a credit card ($25? In Danish kroner) from Tivoli Gardens to the ship in Copenhagen. We walked about 20,000 steps a day and had no problems with using credit cards at restaurants.

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Not sure what Chase has to do with Capital One, or vice versa.

 

It was intended as a FYI. The discussion is on cards issued by banks with chips and pins. Chase is a US bank that issues cards with chips and pins. The pin is only for cash advances - not purchases unless you want to pay the cash advance rate for the purchase.

 

Because a signature is required, it is difficult to use for purchases that are unattended.

Edited by Heartgrove
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Capital One has a pin for its chip cards

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

 

Capital one only gives you a pin for cash withdrawal. I called since that is my primary credit card. They do not use pin for regular credit transactions.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums mobile app

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It was intended as a FYI. The discussion is on cards issued by banks with chips and pins. Chase is a US bank that issues cards with chips and pins. The pin is only for cash advances - not purchases unless you want to pay the cash advance rate.

 

In other words, difficult to use in other parts of the world.

 

 

The Chase cards are Chip and Signature. FYI, I have had no difficulty using it in other parts of the world.

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We're probably not going to get past this impasse. You're one of several European based posters who keep warning US cruisers about the difficulty we'll encounter. And US cruisers keep posting that with some very limited exceptions they've had no difficulty using their PIN-less credit cards.

 

Whether you experience an issue with PIN-less cards will depend on two things -

 

- Are you using them in an unattended machine or face to face with a retailer. A machine, your guess is as good as mine, as it depends how the machine has been set up. Some will be fine, some will not be. There will be no clues on the machine to indicate which it will be.

 

- Whether you are using a chip or mag stripe card. If it is a mag-stripe card, then quite random what will happen.

 

If it is a chip card AND the bank has correctly indicated within the chip it is a PIN-less card then you have no problems provided you DON'T tell the cashier it is a PIN-less card. If you tell them, then they start to think of all the reasons why they cannot accept it. Just stick the card in the machine, the machine knows it doesn't have a PIN and it will just spit out the piece of paper to sign. The cashier will look puzzled whilst they hand you the slip to sign, but so what.

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...lf it is a chip card AND the bank has correctly indicated within the chip it is a PIN-less card then you have no problems provided you DON'T tell the cashier it is a PIN-less card. If you tell them, then they start to think of all the reasons why they cannot accept it. Just stick the card in the machine, the machine knows it doesn't have a PIN and it will just spit out the piece of paper to sign. The cashier will look puzzled whilst they hand you the slip to sign, but so what.

 

Too funny! Love this advice!

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  • 3 weeks later...
The Chase cards are Chip and Signature. FYI, I have had no difficulty using it in other parts of the world.

 

We just returned from 19 days in Scandinavia and Baltic Region. Yes, we had difficulty twice using a chip and signature card for transactions.

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Whether you experience an issue with PIN-less cards will depend on two things -

 

- Are you using them in an unattended machine or face to face with a retailer. A machine, your guess is as good as mine, as it depends how the machine has been set up. Some will be fine, some will not be. There will be no clues on the machine to indicate which it will be.

 

- Whether you are using a chip or mag stripe card. If it is a mag-stripe card, then quite random what will happen.

 

If it is a chip card AND the bank has correctly indicated within the chip it is a PIN-less card then you have no problems provided you DON'T tell the cashier it is a PIN-less card. If you tell them, then they start to think of all the reasons why they cannot accept it. Just stick the card in the machine, the machine knows it doesn't have a PIN and it will just spit out the piece of paper to sign. The cashier will look puzzled whilst they hand you the slip to sign, but so what.

 

this so reflects what happened today when American friends visiting us in a non tourist area of the UK paid with their credit cad at a restaurant

they put their card in the machine and it spat out a piece of paper to sign

the waitress looked very surprised that the usual next step to enter a pin didn't appear!

they explained to her the process and showed her the instantaneous text on his phone from his bank that the payment had been accepted

all good

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After reading all these posts I contacted Bank of America, and they will send me PIN for my credit card. Did that online. Better safe than sorry. Thanks you all for the information. Will travel next month in the Baltic for the first time.

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There are no other US banks to turn to. Even the few banks that give out PIN when they are used they are chip/signature. I have a PIN and have never had to enter it. Even in Europe I have never been asked for the PIN. Was not asked for a PIN at a local pub in Bath.

 

Just circling back on this. My Barclays cards work fine as chip and pin in Europe. The AA card has no forex fee either. The HI Airlines card has pin too but may have forex. You can set the pin online and I read some advice that it's good to use it in a chip terminal (like grocery) in the USA before going abroad.

 

It has chip and sig as primary but will kick to pin at unmanned stations. It was particularly useful in train stations to avoid lines.

 

I carry an Andrews credit union as a backup, which I own for no reason other than chip and pin but I've never needed it. Barclays does the job.

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