Moral question about dog sled tours

interesting topic and very glad to see the discussion has remained intelligent and not based on emotional outbursts. I certainly considered this issue when booking, but knew it was something I would do. I consider it a learning experience and I intend learn whatever the dogs and mushers teach me. I was always dead set against dolphin excursions as they are largely abusive (not to say putting these beautiful mammals in aquariums and forcing labor is not inherently bad). I also have seen horror stories about certain operators.

 

Regardless we decided to visit one of these placed in Grand Cayman. I was literally blown away by our dolphin friend. I gained such respect for him and also realized that the people around me (many of whom had never even seen a dolphin) were equally amazed and educated. You could see how smart these mammals truly are and how caring, especially when working with children. Our dolphin was tasked with pushing people across the pool. When working with a child who was frightened and did not position properly, the dolphin showed uncanny patience. I see dolphins quite often in the open water and after the swim encounter, I feel I understand and respect them much more.

There is a big difference between dolphins who are removed from their family groups and trapped in what is to them a very small tank and sled dogs who just can't wait to get out there and pull the sled. It is amazing to me that you can not see the difference.

DON

My grand daughter & I did the sled dog excursion in Skagway. She is a dog person & loved it. After the ride we got to hold & play with some very young puppies. After our ride we could interact with the dogs who were very friendly. By the way it was raining & we all got wet and the tour was not cancelled. We were both glad we got a chance to see & do this tour. neither one of us felt that the dogs where been mistreated. To each their own.

Allan

I would add that I am against any tours that force, in any way, animals to do anything. So in this instance, yes, I am against dog sledding. While they might like to run, does that mean they want to run with ropes attached to them pulling you around for your entertainment...I doubt that. ... I just find it morally reprehensible to FORCE an animal to do anything because they cannot speak for themselves so we are all just assuming they enjoy it, but I don't believe that is up for us to decide for them.

I would add that I am against any tours that force, in any way, animals to do anything. So in this instance, yes, I am against dog sledding. While they might like to run, does that mean they want to run with ropes attached to them pulling you around for your entertainment...I doubt that. Same as has already been mentioned with the dolphins. We have had numerous opportunities to do swim tours but always refused no matter how "good" the operators were to "their" animals. We finally had a chance to see these majestic creatures in the OPEN ocean where THEY decided if they wanted to interact with us. I just find it morally reprehensible to FORCE an animal to do anything because they cannot speak for themselves so we are all just assuming they enjoy it, but I don't believe that is up for us to decide for them.

Admittedly, I don't know much about sled dogs. But haven't dogs in general been bred for generations to please humans? As domesticated animals they are very different from wild animals. My own dog seems to get lots of pleasure out of doing things that please humans and bring us joy. A simple smile or pat from us and he is thrilled. I'm not saying the same is necessarily true of sled dogs - I don't really know. But from my own experience dogs are very different from dolphins, elephants and other non-domesticated animals.

The 2 excursions/tours we took last year were not the ones where we ride with the dogs. Not all are like that. Yes they hooked up a sled and demonstrated with them and the sled driver. More important to me was learning about the care of the dogs, seeing how well cared for they are, and learning about the Iditarod.

I find it interesting that there's a vote for 'just pet the puppies' instead of visiting an actual sled dog yard and letting them work for your money. I mean...puppies grow up to be dogs...

Every year, the Alaska animal shelters have what they call sled dog dump seasons, where unwanted dogs are left with them to be killed. Because there's more dogs than the mushers need for their teams and they can't afford to feed them all. These aren't pretty fluffy huskies either. These are working dogs that don't make particularly good pets. I know because a friend adopts washed out sled dogs as her 'pets' and they're very high maintenance and not particularly pet like.

The number of cruiseship passengers has grown to over a million a year and I've been on this board for years, and have seen the growth of interest in this 'excursion', with a real emphasis on 'petting the puppies'. So think about what that means; more dogs bred to meet a limited need for three months. Then what happens?

And just like every endeavor, there's going to be responsible breeders and racers and irresponsible. I worked for years in the horse industry with similar issues and there's no simple answers. Inform, and decide for yourself.

At least there isn't a restaurant next door like in my travels in the Orient.

Just a note to say not ALL dogs love living indoors... I grew up on a farm, and our dog hated the house... In tornado weather, you had to drag him in there! He really seemed to love being outside, herding pigs, and pestering the cats :). He was very well taken care of, and always seemed to have a happy wagging tail!

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Just a note to say not ALL dogs love living indoors... I grew up on a farm, and our dog hated the house... In tornado weather, you had to drag him in there! He really seemed to love being outside, herding pigs, and pestering the cats :). He was very well taken care of, and always seemed to have a happy wagging tail!

 

 

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i so agree with you and i was told specifically by multiple sled dog owners that on the rare occasion they try to take them indoors they get so hot and uncomfortable that they want out! Their coats are extremely dense and thick and they are miserable in the heated facilities.

Years ago, we had a husky. She preferred to live outdoors and would run like none other! Such a high energy dog. She would have been miserable living inside all the time and not being able to run. Go enjoy the tour....the owners take extremely good care of those dogs.

You've made an excellent point here. Huskies are high energy, working dogs. Like other working dog breeds (border collies come to mind), they need to be exercised regularly or they get bored and prone to bad behavior like digging or other destructive behaviors. So you can't really think of them on the same level as like pekingese (or some other type of lap dog). They are miserable when stuck inside all day with no exercise.

The 2 excursions/tours we took last year were not the ones where we ride with the dogs. Not all are like that. Yes they hooked up a sled and demonstrated with them and the sled driver. More important to me was learning about the care of the dogs, seeing how well cared for they are, and learning about the Iditarod.

Did you book the excursion thru the ship or on your own? Do you know what the company was?

Did you book the excursion thru the ship or on your own? Do you know what the company was?

We booked through our ship (Royal Caribbean) and it was in Skagway. The tour was a combo Klondike Summit & Gold Rush Sled Dogs.

The second one was in Fairbanks.

That was what eventually turned us away from considering dog sledding-related excursions. While there are arguments and evidence on both sides of the matter, there is simply too much evidence that too much of it is unnecessary imposition and endangerment on the animals for us to consider being a party to it.

I realize that some sled dogs are mistreated. However, most owners treat their dogs well because having good dogs is part of their livelihood. You claim that there is "simply too much evidence etc." that the dogs are endangered. Can you provide written documentation or references for that statement in the case of caring good sled dog owners. No "he said" or "they said" 2nd hand claims but hard evidence that can be checked.

DON

I realize that some sled dogs are mistreated. However, most owners treat their dogs well because having good dogs is part of their livelihood. You claim that there is "simply too much evidence etc." that the dogs are endangered. Can you provide written documentation or references for that statement in the case of caring good sled dog owners.

Please keep in mind that this is a thread about people's morals and also please keep in mind what I wrote: "There is simply too much evidence that too much of it is unnecessary imposition and endangerment on the animals ***for us*** to consider being a party to it." I didn't write, "... for DON to be a party to it."

You already admitted that there was some mistreatment. Please accept that that amount of mistreatment, which you've already granted occurs, is too much given the beliefs and values of my religious faith.

This message may have been entered via voice recognition. Please excuse any typos.

I believe that people are mistakenly, probably not intentionally, mixing up arguments.

I don't think anyone is saying dogs don't like being outside or whether a dog prefers to be indoors or outdoors. The question - for each person to decide for themselves based on their own morals about the issue - is whether it is acceptable or moral to participate in dog sledding excursions.

This is not a debate about whether the dogs want to be inside or out - it is a debate about whether it is acceptable to use the dogs for human entertainment. Again, as I stated before, we are talking about strapping harnesses to their bodies and forcing them to pull us on a sled. That does not seem right.

Let's use another example - humans. I like being outside. I like jogging. However I don't think anyone would agree that it would be moral to force me to carry my spouse around piggy back everywhere we go while outside because they enjoy not having to walk or because I enjoy the outdoors. It's quite silly when you view it from this angle.

Dogs "being bred" to entertain humans is another (IMO) poor argument. It is not their fault we as humans act like we are "above" all other creatures and therefore can do with them as we see fit - such as cross breeding or enslaving. I'd say a better term for what is being described as being excited by just a look or a pet by their own as more akin to stockholm syndrome.

I believe that people are mistakenly, probably not intentionally, mixing up arguments.

 

I don't think anyone is saying dogs don't like being outside or whether a dog prefers to be indoors or outdoors. The question - for each person to decide for themselves based on their own morals about the issue - is whether it is acceptable or moral to participate in dog sledding excursions.

 

This is not a debate about whether the dogs want to be inside or out - it is a debate about whether it is acceptable to use the dogs for human entertainment. Again, as I stated before, we are talking about strapping harnesses to their bodies and forcing them to pull us on a sled. That does not seem right.

 

Let's use another example - humans. I like being outside. I like jogging. However I don't think anyone would agree that it would be moral to force me to carry my spouse around piggy back everywhere we go while outside because they enjoy not having to walk or because I enjoy the outdoors. It's quite silly when you view it from this angle.

 

Dogs "being bred" to entertain humans is another (IMO) poor argument. It is not their fault we as humans act like we are "above" all other creatures and therefore can do with them as we see fit - such as cross breeding or enslaving. I'd say a better term for what is being described as being excited by just a look or a pet by their own as more akin to stockholm syndrome.

It seems like you're arguing that animals in general, and dogs specifically, ought morally to be left to their own devices. My point, which you seem not to have addressed, is that unlike most animals, dogs don't have their own devices to be left to.

You may then take the position that the only moral decision is that dogs should not exist at all. If that's your position, then you're playing hide-the-ball with your arguments, above.

If that's not your position, then we're left with a discussion not of whether dogs and humans interact, but of how they interact, or as the old joke goes, we're just haggling over price.

It's an individual decision. BUT I find the naive "assumption" that the "dogs love to run", a feel good idea that may not be reality based. I instead can speculate the reason for running is because they are short tethered for their lives and darn "happy" to finally be loose.

 

It is unknown to say the least. But, I find claiming something that is unknown, talking to yourself.

I had 2 Akitas and they LOVED to pull. They were large and thick muscled and would put their chest & shoulders into it and dig in and pull.

It seems like you're arguing that animals in general, and dogs specifically, ought morally to be left to their own devices. My point, which you seem not to have addressed, is that unlike most animals, dogs don't have their own devices to be left to.

 

You may then take the position that the only moral decision is that dogs should not exist at all. If that's your position, then you're playing hide-the-ball with your arguments, above.

 

If that's not your position, then we're left with a discussion not of whether dogs and humans interact, but of how they interact, or as the old joke goes, we're just haggling over price.

I'm not arguing that dogs should not exist. More like your second contention that it is about how we interact with animals. I don't think that just because they exist we should dominate them. I own two cats and I treat them with the respect that they are a separate being and as such should be left to their own devices with the perks of having someone who loves and cares for them (and the same could be said for dogs). Of course I feed them but aside from that they are very independent - they stay inside when they want, they go outside when they want, the use the cat litter inside and they also use the grass outside, I follow their ques as to when they want cuddle time, sleep, play, etc. I treat them like I treat my spouse - I help provide for another being that I love, but at the end of the day, they are their own "person/animal" and they shouldn't be told when, where or how to do anything.

So in closing, that is all I am saying about the dogs; the people who run these dog sledding excursions might love them and "take good care" of them, but at the end of the day they have a choice about how they interact with them and they choose to force the dogs to dance like a circus monkey. If I had to guess, I would bet the dogs they would prefer just being left to their own devices to play, run, eat, etc. on their own terms, not when someone tells them to.

I'm not arguing that dogs should not exist. More like your second contention that it is about how we interact with animals. I don't think that just because they exist we should dominate them. I own two cats and I treat them with the respect that they are a separate being and as such should be left to their own devices with the perks of having someone who loves and cares for them (and the same could be said for dogs). Of course I feed them but aside from that they are very independent - they stay inside when they want, they go outside when they want, the use the cat litter inside and they also use the grass outside, I follow their ques as to when they want cuddle time, sleep, play, etc. I treat them like I treat my spouse - I help provide for another being that I love, but at the end of the day, they are their own "person/animal" and they shouldn't be told when, where or how to do anything.

 

So in closing, that is all I am saying about the dogs; the people who run these dog sledding excursions might love them and "take good care" of them, but at the end of the day they have a choice about how they interact with them and they choose to force the dogs to dance like a circus monkey. If I had to guess, I would bet the dogs they would prefer just being left to their own devices to play, run, eat, etc. on their own terms, not when someone tells them to.

Well, I respectfully disagree. As I said before, dogs are unique in their relationship with people. Unlike other animals (cats included), they give every indication of choosing to pay attention to, and try to please, the people around them. Dogs routinely do "jobs" such as herding, chasing, scenting, and pulling, and (as far as one can tell with another species) appear to find it either fulfilling or entertaining (or both). Dogs who aren't told what to do routinely develop symptoms of neurosis (nervous tics, obsessive behaviour, self-harm).

Again, that doesn't mean that a particular situation can't be abusive, but short of situations where the dogs are physically harmed it is not immediately obvious without a much more detailed investigation than just "guessing."

In closing, based on my experience interacting with dogs, I do not find your argument persuasive. I find it entirely plausible to imagine that sled dogs would, and in fact do, choose to engage in that activity. I am open to the possibility that is not the case, but it does not seem likely enough to make me think twice about my planned tour.

Well, I respectfully disagree. As I said before, dogs are unique in their relationship with people. Unlike other animals (cats included), they give every indication of choosing to pay attention to, and try to please, the people around them. Dogs routinely do "jobs" such as herding, chasing, scenting, and pulling, and (as far as one can tell with another species) appear to find it either fulfilling or entertaining (or both). Dogs who aren't told what to do routinely develop symptoms of neurosis (nervous tics, obsessive behaviour, self-harm).

 

Again, that doesn't mean that a particular situation can't be abusive, but short of situations where the dogs are physically harmed it is not immediately obvious without a much more detailed investigation than just "guessing."

 

In closing, based on my experience interacting with dogs, I do not find your argument persuasive. I find it entirely plausible to imagine that sled dogs would, and in fact do, choose to engage in that activity. I am open to the possibility that is not the case, but it does not seem likely enough to make me think twice about my planned tour.

It would appear we will have to agree to disagree on this one :D but I appreciate your civilized debating. Happy Cruising!!

It would appear we will have to agree to disagree on this one :D but I appreciate your civilized debating. Happy Cruising!!

Now there's something we can agree on. Happy cruising, indeed!

We just got back from Alaska and did the Mushers Camp out of Skagway. These dogs seemed pretty happy to us and you could see the love they had for their musher. I would have no problem doing this again. I am more concerned with how others here in the lower 48 treat the family dog.

On my up coming Alaskan cruise, I for one will not be participating in any activity that promotes dog sledding. As with many other outlets that utilize animals for the entertainment of humans, I have seen enough evidence that shows these dogs are not treated well and the face the industry puts on for the public is not the reality for these dogs daily lives. Coincidentally, just last night, Nightline did a piece on the plight of the dogs used in this industry. It was not a pretty picture. There is also a full length documentary called Sled Dogs covering this very issue. I believe you can rent it from iTunes. Conversely, I would be very interested in doing an excursion to a sanctuary or rescue group for sled dogs. If anyone knows of such an excursion I would love to know. Thanks.

On my up coming Alaskan cruise, I for one will not be participating in any activity that promotes dog sledding.

For Avigreta and anyone else disturbed by the dog sled tours:

http://www.sleddogsanctuary.com/

Visit their website for ways you can help. It looks like visiting is by appointment.

I don't share any point of view necessarily, however I do think there are sled dog owners that take excellent care of their dogs and there are those that do not. As with everything in society, there are those that care and those who just seek to profit.

If there is a cause that you feel strong about, then fully research and find an organization that you can donate your time and money.

Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas everyone.