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Trump's changes to Cuba travel from US


VidaNaPraia
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We did not head into the forest and saw the cenetary briefly. I attached a picture of our itinerary. The second day we went into the fort, art museum and revolutionary museum on our own and of course had a fantastic lunch.

 

 

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We would like to learn more about Santeria after seeing the PBS Weekend in Havana coverage of it.

 

Do some reading first. There is quite a bit of info online. Become familiar with the pantheon of orixas and their colors, foods, and domains. Try to understand the learning process; you will see a lot of initiates dressed in white on the street in Havana. You can find the little shops that sell necklaces and such for practitioners in Vieja over by the Capitolio; no photos allowed, the signs say in Spanish.

 

You can arrange to see a ceremony, but keep in mind that it is someone's religious observance, not a tourist/outsider activity, despite what the TV show may have led you to believe. It also (IMO) may get a bit repetitive after awhile, and goes on for hours. It's an oral tradition and not a lot is publicized outside the practicing group, so there is a tradition of being secretive..

 

(In Brazil, there are a lot of tourist looky-loos wanting to "see" a similar ceremony. Gets to seem a bit invasive.

In the same manner, tourists often outnumber participants at some gospel churches in Harlem these days. A fine line to walk.)

Edited by VidaNaPraia
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Quick and late reply- while this thread has talked a lot about the individual person-person reason to travel to Cuba as the focus of this administration- they are really not changing anything else.

 

And there are other options that can be chosen as a reason to travel to Cuba, particularly "Support the Cuban People"- which one can do by buying dinner from a Palador, staying in a casa particulare, or hiring one of the many private taxis.

 

On the Royal Caribbean affidavit, this is in the part C section, and it also inclusive of part A and B at the same time. It is a very, very general reason.

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Quick and late reply- while this thread has talked a lot about the individual person-person reason to travel to Cuba as the focus of this administration- they are really not changing anything else.

 

And there are other options that can be chosen as a reason to travel to Cuba, particularly "Support the Cuban People"- which one can do by buying dinner from a Palador, staying in a casa particulare, or hiring one of the many private taxis..

 

In a new FAQ the government suggests otherwise.

 

When President Donald Trump announced his new policy for the island in Miami on June 16, OFAC said that the only category of authorized travel by U.S. travelers that would be affected were individual people-to-people trips. Trump said such trips would be prohibited because travelers have used that category to disguise trips that are purely for tourism, which the U.S. prohibits.

But in its new “Frequently Asked Questions” publication, OFAC says: “The new policy will also impact certain categories of educational travel as well as travel under support for the Cuban people.” It didn’t elaborate.

 

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/cuba/article163602943.html

 

 

The words are paladar and casa particular by the way.

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In a new FAQ the government suggests otherwise.

 

 

 

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/cuba/article163602943.html

 

 

The words are paladar and casa particular by the way.

 

So here's the area directly from don's directive:

 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/06/16/national-security-presidential-memorandum-strengthening-policy-united

 

(ii) The regulations shall further require that those traveling for the permissible purposes of non academic education or to provide support for the Cuban people:

(A) engage in a full-time schedule of activities that enhance contact with the Cuban people, support civil society in Cuba, or promote the Cuban people's independence from Cuban authorities; and

(B) meaningfully interact with individuals in Cuba.

Hard to interpret that other than spending money in the privately owned businesses and talking directly with people.

Bear in mind, this isn't applicable until mid September at the very earliest, as it takes 90 days for a directive to turn into new rules.

In the mean time, this is what applies specifically to my point

§515.574 Support for the Cuban People.

 

(a) General license. The travel-related transactions set forth in §515.560© and other transactions that are intended to provide support for the Cuban people are authorized, provided that:

(1) The activities are of:

(i) Recognized human rights organizations;

(ii) Independent organizations designed to promote a rapid, peaceful transition to democracy; or

(iii) Individuals and non-governmental organizations that promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba; and

(2) The traveler's schedule of activities does not include free time or recreation in excess of that consistent with a full-time schedule.

Note to §515.574(a): Each person relying on the general authorization in this paragraph must retain specific records related to the authorized travel transactions. See §§501.601 and 501.602 of this chapter for applicable recordkeeping and reporting requirements.

(b) An entire group does not qualify for the general license in paragraph (a) of this section merely because some members of the group qualify individually.

© Specific licenses. Specific licenses may be issued on a case-by-case basis authorizing the travel-related transactions set forth in §515.560© and such other transactions as are related to support for the Cuban people that do not qualify for the general license under paragraph (a) of this section.

That's not about being a tourist, but going and supporting the Cuban people. And it's very easy to schedule the entire trip.

In other words, if my whole trip avoids going to state run places, that's supporting the Cuban people.

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That's not about being a tourist, but going and supporting the Cuban people. And it's very easy to schedule the entire trip.

In other words, if my whole trip avoids going to state run places, that's supporting the Cuban people.

 

 

Avoid going to state run places? Easier said than done.

 

So fine, you eat at a paladar instead of a government restaurant. Make sure you know which is which or make reservations for every snack.

If you do a land based trip, you stay in a casa particular, not a government run hotel.

To get around, you learn to recognize and differentiate the air conditioned private taxis from the state run ones, and possibly stand on the street corner in the extreme heat for much longer until you locate one. Or you do not move anywhere for any reason without a private guide who can arrange for one.

You do not go to museums or historic buildings/houses that are run by the government (all museums, including the cannon firing and historic homes and churches).

You do not visit artists' studios, or groups, since they receive a government salary or government support.

You do not visit tobacco farms or factories or stores since workers receive a government salary and the facilities are government run. Same for rum.

You do not buy bottled water at a government run store, and you first learn to differentiate them from any private ones you might find.

You do not go to any performances by government run groups, or pay a ticket price to them, or by artists paid a government salary. (most, including the popular cabaret shows, as well as symphony and ballet)

 

You bring your own pen and paper, and learn enough Spanish to ask/insist, to get receipts for any interactions, each bottle of water, because receipts are usually not given. (Any restaurant check presented is usually is kept by them with your money .)

 

So basically, you get to walk around and not go into any place cultural, maybe look at private souvenir stalls, making sure you get any food and drink from authorized places. A "quality" experience.

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The only prohibition is specific state functions. The rule does not say zero state run things, but the intention of supporting non-state run things.

 

It's very vague, but there's not a direct prohibition.

 

All we need is a full time schedule, with a strong bias to individuals. There are a few travel sites who are using this provision to put schedules together that meet the letter of the law.

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The only prohibition is specific state functions. The rule does not say zero state run things, but the intention of supporting non-state run things.

 

It's very vague, but there's not a direct prohibition.

 

All we need is a full time schedule, with a strong bias to individuals. There are a few travel sites who are using this provision to put schedules together that meet the letter of the law.

 

There is no rule. There is no prohibition. Yet. There was no executive order. The announcement was vague. Sometime within 90 days of the June 16 announcement, "guidelines" are supposed to be published. Any FAC based just on what the announcement seemed to imply would happen is speculation.

The announcement mentioned not patronizing tourist enterprises with connection to the Cuban military and its tourism wing which is broadly involved in many aspects and entities of the tourism industry. It is unclear as yet which specific entities may be detailed/listed in the forthcoming guidelines to provide more specific information.

Travel sites, if by that you mean group tour sites, have always applied for specific licenses, whereby OFAC vets each of their their proposed activities as qualified, meeting the letter of the law, and the whole program as sufficient to qualify as full time.

They do not do that for an individual's general license. There is no precedent for any individual attempting to copy a group's published schedule being vetted in the same way. So presuming you are doing the correct thing may or may not be so.

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I've been reading a bit from the 2016 Rough Guide to Cuba, available at my public library. While things may change by the time I get to Cuba, at least it has some helpful information on how to identify what's state run and what's not - for example, taxis, restaurants, etc. If I'm allowed to walk around by myself, I just plan to read that information, plus any guidelines issued by the US Treasury and the cruise line, and do my best.

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There is no rule. There is no prohibition. Yet. There was no executive order. The announcement was vague. Sometime within 90 days of the June 16 announcement, "guidelines" are supposed to be published. Any FAC based just on what the announcement seemed to imply would happen is speculation.

The announcement mentioned not patronizing tourist enterprises with connection to the Cuban military and its tourism wing which is broadly involved in many aspects and entities of the tourism industry. It is unclear as yet which specific entities may be detailed/listed in the forthcoming guidelines to provide more specific information.

Travel sites, if by that you mean group tour sites, have always applied for specific licenses, whereby OFAC vets each of their their proposed activities as qualified, meeting the letter of the law, and the whole program as sufficient to qualify as full time.

They do not do that for an individual's general license. There is no precedent for any individual attempting to copy a group's published schedule being vetted in the same way. So presuming you are doing the correct thing may or may not be so.

 

Not within 90 days, at 90 days. So Sept 16. Assuming that there are people actually working on the new directive. That remains to be seen. The FAQ is pretty clear that the law is the same until it changes- this is a July 25 update from the US Treasury- https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/cuba_faqs_20170725.pdf

 

BTW, IMHO, you are assuming that there is no precedent- unless you have some insight for people who have been talked to, that's just a guess. Given the time, and the handful of web pages that are explaining how to use the "supporting Cuban People" reason- someone has clearly thought about it beyond me.

 

Also, we found some direction from none other than Marco Rubio who has interpreted the rule to just stay at a Casa Particulare and eat at a Palador.

and

 

We'll take our chances. And plan on posting what we find, as it will be a long weekend in Havana to find non-ship options to learn and see Havana.

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Not within 90 days, at 90 days. So Sept 16. Assuming that there are people actually working on the new directive. That remains to be seen. The FAQ is pretty clear that the law is the same until it changes- this is a July 25 update from the US Treasury- https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/cuba_faqs_20170725.pdf

That was pretty clear all along, since the announcement, and before.

Wanna speculate on 45's follow through? Aha. Good luck.

 

BTW, IMHO, you are assuming that there is no precedent- unless you have some insight for people who have been talked to, that's just a guess. Given the time, and the handful of web pages that are explaining how to use the "supporting Cuban People" reason- someone has clearly thought about it beyond me.

Well the experts who have been going to Cuba for decades and/or have significant others there and post regularly on Thorn Tree and TA (a lot of the same folks) have been recommending the "support for Cuban people" choice since Obama changed the rules with his executive order, because of the vague way it is defined. I'd prefer to take their experienced advice on most Cuba topics, rather than all the Johnny-come-latelies who are now jumping on the bandwagon of the "support" category.

These experts can also quote in their posts the statistics (and sources for them) regarding how many people have been investigated and how many fined in the last couple of decades. That's "insight" in my book.

 

Also, we found some direction from none other than Marco Rubio who has interpreted the rule to just stay at a Casa Particulare and eat at a Palador.

and

As I wrote above, staying at a casa particular and eating at a paladar only covers two activities of a visit, two things you would spend money on if on a land based trip.. For the rest, it is as I mentioned.

Little Marco hasn't addressed that other part afaik. He is pandering to the Miami Cuban community as a politician seeking re-election, but does not want to be accused of hurting his brothers and sisters on the island.

Nobody yet knows how the cruise lines are going to handle (state owned/run) buses for their passengers' excursions, for example, or if they will be given special dispensation of some sort.

 

We'll take our chances. And plan on posting what we find, as it will be a long weekend in Havana to find non-ship options to learn and see Havana.

 

I can't remember if you are traveling before or after the new guidelines come out, and before or after any possible funding for investigation may be approved.

The bottom line is that you can keep records of whatever you do to try to follow the rules, the US authorities can check them some how to see if whatever you wrote qualifies, but no real check can be done on Cuban soil and on Cubn citizens to even see if they exist.

 

Your experience will be your experience and should NOT inform anyone else's travel decisions, planning, or itinerary.

 

(My experience is mine and currently includes a lot more than one quickie weekend in Havana, which gives me more recent time in Cuba than most posting here, and the cred that should go along with that.).

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Interesting...

 

Example 4 to §515.565(b): An individual plans to travel to Cuba to rent a bicycle to explore the streets of Havana, engage in brief exchanges with shopkeepers while making purchases, and have casual conversations with waiters at restaurants and hotel staff. None of these activities are educational exchange activities that will result in meaningful interaction between the traveler and individuals in Cuba, and the traveler's trip does not qualify for the general license.

Example 5 to §515.565(b): An individual plans to travel to Cuba to participate in discussions with Cuban farmers and produce sellers about cooperative farming and agricultural practices and have extended dialogue with religious leaders about the influence of African traditions and religion on society and culture. The individual also plans to spend a few days engaging in brief exchanges with Cuban food vendors while spending time at the beach. Only some of these activities are educational exchange activities that will result in meaningful interaction between the traveler and individuals in Cuba, and the traveler therefore does not have a full-time schedule of such activities on each day of the trip. The trip does not qualify for the general license.

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Example 5 to §515.565(b): An individual plans to travel to Cuba to participate in discussions with Cuban farmers and produce sellers about cooperative farming and agricultural practices and have extended dialogue with religious leaders about the influence of African traditions and religion on society and culture. The individual also plans to spend a few days engaging in brief exchanges with Cuban food vendors while spending time at the beach. Only some of these activities are educational exchange activities that will result in meaningful interaction between the traveler and individuals in Cuba, and the traveler therefore does not have a full-time schedule of such activities on each day of the trip. The trip does not qualify for the general license.

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Interesting...

 

Example 4 to §515.565(b): An individual plans to travel to Cuba to rent a bicycle to explore the streets of Havana, engage in brief exchanges with shopkeepers while making purchases, and have casual conversations with waiters at restaurants and hotel staff. None of these activities are educational exchange activities that will result in meaningful interaction between the traveler and individuals in Cuba, and the traveler's trip does not qualify for the general license.

Example 5 to §515.565(b): An individual plans to travel to Cuba to participate in discussions with Cuban farmers and produce sellers about cooperative farming and agricultural practices and have extended dialogue with religious leaders about the influence of African traditions and religion on society and culture. The individual also plans to spend a few days engaging in brief exchanges with Cuban food vendors while spending time at the beach. Only some of these activities are educational exchange activities that will result in meaningful interaction between the traveler and individuals in Cuba, and the traveler therefore does not have a full-time schedule of such activities on each day of the trip. The trip does not qualify for the general license.

 

Yes, these examples have been widely publicized. (Note that these are examples, not the wording of the actual definition of the category on the official OFAC site.) They are regarding the People2People reason/category for travel and how it has been defined in the OFAC regs. They are examples of why that category is no longer going to be open to individuals, who have often been "creative" about what qualifies in that category, as in the examples.

The description/definition of the "Support for the Cuban People" category is much more vague. (And there are no examples like the ones above for the P2P category to attempt to clarify--at least that my extensive reading has found.)

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I've been reading a bit from the 2016 Rough Guide to Cuba, available at my public library. While things may change by the time I get to Cuba, at least it has some helpful information on how to identify what's state run and what's not - for example, taxis, restaurants, etc. If I'm allowed to walk around by myself, I just plan to read that information, plus any guidelines issued by the US Treasury and the cruise line, and do my best.

 

Afaik the latest Rough Guide to Cuba was published in November of 2016, just after the first commercial flights got permission to start in mid-September, and research probably started well before that.

At the time, any mention of what is state run was mainly to advise tourists about better food at private restaurants (paladares), and maybe how to find an air conditioned or classic car taxi, certainly not the intricacies of vehicles leased by private individuals from the government that may or may not qualify on some future OFAC list. Many cases are not so straightforward. And I don't think you'll find a mention of the frequently used Viazul or Conectando inter-city buses being state or military tourist branch owned or not, and if travel on them may qualify under the new guidelines.

 

If the US government ever actually allocates funds to check in detail whatever travelers write as their so-called full time schedules and entities patronized, and if OFAC ever actually starts to fine individuals, the you-know-what will hit the fan for anyone who didn't do adequate research to follow the rules existing at the time of travel. If there are no audits, no problem (as in the past) with whatever anyone and their brother thinks is good enough.

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Just booked a 2019 cruise on empress, so clearly I'll be under the new rules.

 

Plenty of time for me to cancel if things don't work out.

 

I just hope they don't herd you off and on the ship as a controlled group. I don't mind participating in their full time activities if there would be a little free time ashore.

 

If there is no free time at all and they herd you on and off the ship I'll probably cancel.

 

So will be monitoring things later this year and next year too see what the cruise lines do.

 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

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Just booked a 2019 cruise on empress, so clearly I'll be under the new rules.

 

Plenty of time for me to cancel if things don't work out.

 

I just hope they don't herd you off and on the ship as a controlled group. I don't mind participating in their full time activities if there would be a little free time ashore.

 

If there is no free time at all and they herd you on and off the ship I'll probably cancel.

 

So will be monitoring things later this year and next year too see what the cruise lines do.

 

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

 

It seems the new era may mean that the cruise line is responsible for ensuring that passengers activities fall under the guidelines for a specific license. How would they do this if everyone is wandering around on their own?

 

All the current guidelines for the OFAC categories state: " The traveler’s schedule of activities does not include free time or recreation in excess of that consistent with a full-time schedule.", without currently defining "full-time schedule".

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I guess that is what I hope to find out, what is free time that is consistent with a full time schedule.

 

If I do an 8 hour (full time) activity and have a few hours to do my own thing that would probably be ok.

 

If you get herded off and on and guarded like prisoners then I am afraid cruising to Cuba is doomed.

 

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I guess that is what I hope to find out, what is free time that is consistent with a full time schedule.

 

If I do an 8 hour (full time) activity and have a few hours to do my own thing that would probably be ok.

 

If you get herded off and on and guarded like prisoners then I am afraid cruising to Cuba is doomed.

 

 

Well, until OFAC or whoever puts out guidelines, and if indeed those guidelines give any additional information, no one can answer that question.

Can it be assumed that 8 hours is full time? Can't know for sure until someone is audited, OFAC approves their itinerary, and that person publishes what happened. (Currently OFAC isn't funded for staff to do lots of audits. They audited one commercial company last year; no individuals.)

 

"Herded off and on"? Isn't that the definition of a cruise line excursion?

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The more people I talk to about their trips to Cuba, the more I see how the P2P is being abused. No wonder they're tightening things up. The easiest way for OFAC to control the situation would be to not let folks off the ship unless they have a voucher from an approved guide. That would be similar to using a tourist visa in St. Petersburg.

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The more people I talk to about their trips to Cuba, the more I see how the P2P is being abused. No wonder they're tightening things up. The easiest way for OFAC to control the situation would be to not let folks off the ship unless they have a voucher from an approved guide. That would be similar to using a tourist visa in St. Petersburg.

 

It's simply not that clear cut.

How can the US government monitor citizens (approved guides, etc.) from another country with which it does not yet have 'normal' relations.?

How (in what manner) would the guide be "approved"? By whom? With what proofs, written/attested by whom?

Is the US Embassy going to start investigating every guide, restaurant, classic car owner, etc, etc who would need to be certified somehow? Is there funding for this?

------

Here's an excerpt from an article that addresses some of the problem:

 

" How do I know if I’m spending money with a state-run business while I’m there?

 

One of the biggest question marks related to this new policy is how it will be enforced. Julia E. Sweig, Cuba expert and author of Cuba: What Everyone Needs to Knows said, “This is all just completely untenable. The porousness between the state-run and private economy is very significant. It’s very hard to go to Cuba and not touch something the state touches as well.”

Sweig added, “The chilling effect [of this policy] is not so much in terms of how Americans go but what it is they’re allowed to do and not do and what kind of audits they have to provide to the Treasury Department. That’s the chilling effect. Will they impose a daily dollar per diem on how much you can spend? But not have restrictions on how many souvenirs like cigars and rum that you can bring back? They don’t know the answer.”

In other words, Americans traveling to Cuba will have to be very mindful of where they’re spending their money, and definitely hold onto any receipts."

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There seems to be a lot of tea-leaf reading going on!

 

Vida's comments are the most reasonable .

 

The Russians don't allow you to wander around without a visa and I don't know whether agencies like Red October et al are controlled or licensed by the government but those agencies are not controlled or licensed or authorized by the U.S. government.

 

I'm not going to try to gaze at a crystal ball but I would venture to say that our bureaucrats are going to have a rough time in formulating new regulations.

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Well, I'm reading tea leaves too, but honestly, I don't think 45's changes will result in anything all that different from what people experienced earlier this year under the former administration's rules. I doubt very seriously we'll be herded around, or watched, or anything like that. My tea leaf reading indicates the worst that will happen is that we will be prohibited from going back and forth from ship to city multiple times in the same day. I can live with that, although I'd prefer total freedom! I'm not really all that concerned any more. I'm going to Cuba and that's what matters most.

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Well, I'm reading tea leaves too, but honestly, I don't think 45's changes will result in anything all that different from what people experienced earlier this year under the former administration's rules. I doubt very seriously we'll be herded around, or watched, or anything like that. My tea leaf reading indicates the worst that will happen is that we will be prohibited from going back and forth from ship to city multiple times in the same day. I can live with that, although I'd prefer total freedom! I'm not really all that concerned any more. I'm going to Cuba and that's what matters most.

 

The watching and herding around would be on Cuba's part- which I didn't notice what so ever when we were there. Certainly used to be there, as we were told there were specific laws outlining who could be with tourists and who could not. But those rules were lifted a long time ago.

 

OTOH, what we are allowed to do WRT the US government remains to be seen. But the "support Cuban people" part may be left relatively unchanged. Which does allow some freedom to do more than big group tours.

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