The virtues of formal nights & why we like them

I know a lot of people who would not cruise on Cunard because of their dress policy. They are scared off by it. I tell them QM2 is like a the museum to the ocean liner past. Do it at least once to experience history. But that does not seem to convince them, as a reason to overlook their dress policy. I am in the don't care camp about their dress policy, I don't have Cunard crossed off but on the other hand I have not booked Cunard in years. Those who like formal nights should book them but with three ships you would be limiting yourself with ports, prices and length.

Considering we've been on Celebrity Cunard & Princess, I have to say by far Cunard is our favorite. Not because of the dress code,either. It's just a classy line overall. Food is generally better(mainly because they've been upping prices of late)The shows are somewhat better. Shore excursions were better, though Celebrity comes close.The lecturers are FAR better than any line we've been on. Just overall a nicer experience.

I never stated I didn't enjoy formal nights. I just wanted to know what the norm was!!! I have discovered that CC has very sensitive folks though. Sorry I asked.

 

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It's kind of tough when names are so similar to each other. I remember years back the cops came in & hauled away this employee. Both had the same name only difference was a slight change in the spelling of the last name. OOOPS!

Considering we've been on Celebrity Cunard & Princess, I have to say by far Cunard is our favorite. Not because of the dress code,either. It's just a classy line overall. Food is generally better(mainly because they've been upping prices of late)The shows are somewhat better. Shore excursions were better, though Celebrity comes close.The lecturers are FAR better than any line we've been on. Just overall a nicer experience.

Thank you for reminding me about the lectures. They are far better. They bring people onboard who are stars in their area of expertise. It is worth booking Cunard just for the lectures. They were excellent. I actually did look at Cunard sailings this summer but the dates didn't work out. I may yet be wearing my tux on a ship again in the future! It is about time I did Cunard again.

That's true RocketMan275.

Hehe! Kaftans have come a long way since then.

 

The Camilla brand is high fashion in Australia, not just for kaftans but other dress styles, pants, shorts, swimwear and so on. There is something for all age groups. My eldest granddaughter often likes the same designs as me but she picks styles that suit her age and I like the kaftans. This is my latest.

 

I am joining this conversation a little later than most, so I am catching up.

You have brought up an interesting aspect of the "formal wear" discussion: the issue of what is considered "formal" in various regions/countries/cultures. The caftans you refer to (and picture), however "high fashion," do not represent "formal" dress in any part of the United States I am familiar with. They are merely fancy, expensive, or high fashion sundresses, beach cover-ups, or blingy casual summer attire. The average American (and perhaps Australian as well?) never wears truly formal attire in their everyday lives, and thus interprets any ankle or floor-length dress as fitting the cruise line definition of "formal." Americans who attend truly formal social occasions such as charity balls or formal weddings understand what formal wear is, because they own it, wear it, and see others wear it. On the other hand, if ship personnel also interpret a blingy caftan as meeting the cruiseline definition of formal wear, then this outfit becomes "formal" in this context, though it would not be considered formal in other contexts..

As has been discussed by others, what one might call "average" American culture has become extremely casual -- the average American man has never owned a tux, and probably only rented one for proms and his wedding, and the average American woman has only worn a (non-wedding) gown at prom or as a bridesmaid. Hence the tendency for American women who cruise to be seen in "black pants and a sparkly top" and for men to be seen in a sport coat, with or without tie, and slacks. This is as "formal" as it gets in many Americans' minds and closets.

Folks such as on this thread who are true "formal wear" enthusiasts go out of their way to purchase and wear clothing that they often only use on cruises. The whole point of this thread, I suppose, is to discuss the "culture" on Princess -- is it one where gowns and tuxes are the norm, or one where the caftan and sport coat are defined as "formal?"

The formal wear culture described by Princess' dress code is apparently not necessarily the one actually found to exist on board.

I am joining this conversation a little later than most, so I am catching up.

 

You have brought up an interesting aspect of the "formal wear" discussion: the issue of what is considered "formal" in various regions/countries/cultures. The caftans you refer to (and picture), however "high fashion," do not represent "formal" dress in any part of the United States I am familiar with. They are merely fancy, expensive, or high fashion sundresses, beach cover-ups, or blingy casual summer attire. The average American (and perhaps Australian as well?) never wears truly formal attire in their everyday lives, and thus interprets any ankle or floor-length dress as fitting the cruise line definition of "formal." Americans who attend truly formal social occasions such as charity balls or formal weddings understand what formal wear is, because they own it, wear it, and see others wear it. On the other hand, if ship personnel also interpret a blingy caftan as meeting the cruiseline definition of formal wear, then this outfit becomes "formal" in this context, though it would not be considered formal in other contexts..

 

As has been discussed by others, what one might call "average" American culture has become extremely casual -- the average American man has never owned a tux, and probably only rented one for proms and his wedding, and the average American woman has only worn a (non-wedding) gown at prom or as a bridesmaid. Hence the tendency for American women who cruise to be seen in "black pants and a sparkly top" and for men to be seen in a sport coat, with or without tie, and slacks. This is as "formal" as it gets in many Americans' minds and closets.

 

Folks such as on this thread who are true "formal wear" enthusiasts go out of their way to purchase and wear clothing that they often only use on cruises. The whole point of this thread, I suppose, is to discuss the "culture" on Princess -- is it one where gowns and tuxes are the norm, or one where the caftan and sport coat are defined as "formal?"

 

The formal wear culture described by Princess' dress code is apparently not necessarily the one actually found to exist on board.

So true. If you research "formal" you will find that the classic definition refers to tails/white tie for men and a classic ball gown for women - think Cinderella here with full skirt and fitted bodice. A black tie/tux is truly "semi-formal" and is worn with a t-length or evening gown for women - and can be of any shape from sheath on out with a drop waste and are made of dressy fabrics such as silk, velvet etc. A dark suit is paired with a cocktail dress (or the black flowy slacks and sparkle top) for women and would be classic dinner party attire.

But all this has gone by the wayside as we Americans become more and more casual. At the rate we are headed we will be eating with people in the PJs in the MDR - afterall, the cruise ship is your home for the week and you eat in your PJs at home so why not?:eek::rolleyes:;)

I will continue to adhere to the dress code (defined as " a set of rules, usually written and posted, specifying the required manner of dress at a school, office, club, restaurant" - and clearly NOT a recommendation or suggestion) of the evening and teach my children to do the same.

$500 for a caftan/beach cover??? I can buy a beautiful, authentic formal gown (which I do) for MUCH, MUCH less!!! As a side note, my friend attended a $3mm week long wedding in Greece and the night of the ceremony her zipper broke on her gown as she was getting dressed. After many tears,she DID wear a beach cover (blinged up) to the wedding, and today we laugh about it!.

I used to do the whole tuxedo thing properly for formal nights and enjoyed it but got disillusioned more recently by sharing tables with others who wore nothing even remotely smart casual let anything formal.

So I do not take anything very formal now. Just a suit and tie.

Maybe the people who pay for the Premium dining area will do traditional full formal more? I don't know as we are lowly inside cabin folk.

 

I will continue to adhere to the dress code (defined as " a set of rules, usually written and posted, specifying the required manner of dress at a school, office, club, restaurant" - and clearly NOT a recommendation or suggestion) of the evening and teach my children to do the same.

Then can you explain why this "set of rules" is found in a section of the Princess web site titled "Clothing Recommendations"? I have always thought that the title of a Section indicates something about what follows.

Then can you explain why this "set of rules" is found in a section of the Princess web site titled "Clothing Recommendations"? I have always thought that the title of a Section indicates something about what follows.

"Formal

When formal nights are held, please observe the dress code in the Traditional Dining and Anytime Dining venues for the enjoyment of all our guests.

Evening gowns and cocktail dresses for women

Tuxedos, dinner jackets or dark suits with a tie for men"

It is not optional. The section is recommendations because it offers a variety of choices depending on the location of the cruise and a person's interests - for example if you are not going to swim or sun then a bathing suit is unnecessary.

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I am joining this conversation a little later than most, so I am catching up.

 

You have brought up an interesting aspect of the "formal wear" discussion: the issue of what is considered "formal" in various regions/countries/cultures. The caftans you refer to (and picture), however "high fashion," do not represent "formal" dress in any part of the United States I am familiar with. They are merely fancy, expensive, or high fashion sundresses, beach cover-ups, or blingy casual summer attire. The average American (and perhaps Australian as well?) never wears truly formal attire in their everyday lives, and thus interprets any ankle or floor-length dress as fitting the cruise line definition of "formal." Americans who attend truly formal social occasions such as charity balls or formal weddings understand what formal wear is, because they own it, wear it, and see others wear it. On the other hand, if ship personnel also interpret a blingy caftan as meeting the cruiseline definition of formal wear, then this outfit becomes "formal" in this context, though it would not be considered formal in other contexts..

 

As has been discussed by others, what one might call "average" American culture has become extremely casual -- the average American man has never owned a tux, and probably only rented one for proms and his wedding, and the average American woman has only worn a (non-wedding) gown at prom or as a bridesmaid. Hence the tendency for American women who cruise to be seen in "black pants and a sparkly top" and for men to be seen in a sport coat, with or without tie, and slacks. This is as "formal" as it gets in many Americans' minds and closets.

 

Folks such as on this thread who are true "formal wear" enthusiasts go out of their way to purchase and wear clothing that they often only use on cruises. The whole point of this thread, I suppose, is to discuss the "culture" on Princess -- is it one where gowns and tuxes are the norm, or one where the caftan and sport coat are defined as "formal?"

 

The formal wear culture described by Princess' dress code is apparently not necessarily the one actually found to exist on board.

This may not constitute true formal wear, but it sure is gorgeous!

I used to do the whole tuxedo thing properly for formal nights and enjoyed it but got disillusioned more recently by sharing tables with others who wore nothing even remotely smart casual let anything formal.

So I do not take anything very formal now. Just a suit and tie.

Maybe the people who pay for the Premium dining area will do traditional full formal more? I don't know as we are lowly inside cabin folk.

We do the inside route as well. The savings then goes to specialty rest. & excursions. Suit & tie is fine by the way. We only do tuxes on Cunard.

"Formal

When formal nights are held, please observe the dress code in the Traditional Dining and Anytime Dining venues for the enjoyment of all our guests.

 

Evening gowns and cocktail dresses for women

Tuxedos, dinner jackets or dark suits with a tie for men"

 

It is not optional. The section is recommendations because it offers a variety of choices depending on the location of the cruise and a person's interests - for example if you are not going to swim or sun then a bathing suit is unnecessary.

 

 

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It is optional as Princess allows passengers to use the MDR who are not wearing those clothing items. And they say please observe, they don't say you must observe. I have seen men wearing only sports jackets or only dress shirts in the main dining venues. And without a tie. If it were not optional then they would not let them in. Those who like formal nights would do better convincing those who don't like them why they should wear dark suits or tuxedos anyway rather than saying it is a rule that must be complied with on Princess. Or convince us why we should like formal nights. I have been on at least 11 Princess cruises and always wore a tux or dark suit even though I was not a fan of those. Since I am not a fan and know I don't have to wear them because I have seen what men are wearing I am inclined not to wear either on my upcoming cruise. I haven't packed yet, it is a couple of months off so maybe I can be convinced to wear a suit, but saying I have to because it is a rule won't cut it with me because I know I don't have to.

It is optional as Princess allows passengers to use the MDR who are not wearing those clothing items. And they say please observe, they don't say you must observe. I have seen men wearing only sports jackets or only dress shirts in the main dining venues. And without a tie. If it were not optional then they would not let them in. Those who like formal nights would do better convincing those who don't like them why they should wear dark suits or tuxedos anyway rather than saying it is a rule that must be complied with on Princess. Or convince us why we should like formal nights. I have been on at least 11 Princess cruises and always wore a tux or dark suit even though I was not a fan of those. Since I am not a fan and know I don't have to wear them because I have seen what men are wearing I am inclined not to wear either on my upcoming cruise. I haven't packed yet, it is a couple of months off so maybe I can be convinced to wear a suit, but saying I have to because it is a rule won't cut it with me because I know I don't have to.

How about the fact that it is reminiscent and honors the days of the original ocean voyages? It evokes an idea of gentility and an era of manners that we are sorely lacking in this day and age. It preserves and acknowledges that there are times and places to leave the blue jeans and ordinary clothes behind and celebrate a special moment. Elegant clothing helps set a romantic and classic mood. Women look beautiful in evening gowns and we need and want our companions to look equally handsome.

And if all else fails, you can fall back on my husband's moto: Happy wife, happy life.

Have I convinced you now?

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I like the atmosphere of a formal night. It is lovely to see men in ties and jackets and women in dresses, gowns or elegant pants suits. My issue is with those who are blatantly underdressed- dockers and a collared shirt is not in the spirit of formal night. When we started cruising formal night was a great deal more formal and we followed suit. We noticed that things got a bit more relaxed. Now,we fit right in not wearing a gown and tux. That is not to say pax should not wear them. You guys look great dressed to the nines. It is fun to watch the fashion parade. [emoji4]

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How about the fact that it is reminiscent and honors the days of the original ocean voyages? It evokes an idea of gentility and an era of manners that we are sorely lacking in this day and age. It preserves and acknowledges that there are times and places to leave the blue jeans and ordinary clothes behind and celebrate a special moment. Elegant clothing helps set a romantic and classic mood. Women look beautiful in evening gowns and we need and want our companions to look equally handsome.

 

And if all else fails, you can fall back on my husband's moto: Happy wife, happy life.

 

Have I convinced you now?

 

 

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But it's 2017 - those days are gone. Cruising is no longer for the elite. Princess is hanging on to the past tooth and nail and as you stated, it's gone. Too many people don't observe it and they don't have to anymore. Specialty restaurants haven't been Formal in over a decade, if not two.

How about the fact that it is reminiscent and honors the days of the original ocean voyages? It evokes an idea of gentility and an era of manners that we are sorely lacking in this day and age. It preserves and acknowledges that there are times and places to leave the blue jeans and ordinary clothes behind and celebrate a special moment. Elegant clothing helps set a romantic and classic mood. Women look beautiful in evening gowns and we need and want our companions to look equally handsome.

 

And if all else fails, you can fall back on my husband's moto: Happy wife, happy life.

 

Have I convinced you now?

 

 

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The "original ocean voyages"?

The ones where about 10% could afford first class and the dress and jewelry that went along with it. And looked down their noses at the other 90% who sailed steerage?

If you are trying to convince me to dress "formal" using this example is sure not going to do it.

The fact that I am mobile after a stroke almost 2 years ago and able to actually go on a cruise makes me blessed indeed. I am not able to walk or even keep my balance in heeled shoes. Long dresses also cause me balance problems.

So you will see me dressed in a lightweight pants suit, that you probably will not consider formal, and you may shake your head and wonder why I am siting in the MDR on formal night. Because of my medical needs I have already been in touch with the Maître De, the head of hotel and the medical personnel. I have also been told I will not be harassed on formal night and will be allowed into the MDR.

Many times you do not truly know what is going on with a person until you have walked a mile in their shoes. We should all be less judgmental.

I will of course enjoy watching those who do dress to the nines as I enjoy people watching.

I am joining this conversation a little later than most, so I am catching up.

 

You have brought up an interesting aspect of the "formal wear" discussion: the issue of what is considered "formal" in various regions/countries/cultures. The caftans you refer to (and picture), however "high fashion," do not represent "formal" dress in any part of the United States I am familiar with. They are merely fancy, expensive, or high fashion sundresses, beach cover-ups, or blingy casual summer attire. The average American (and perhaps Australian as well?) never wears truly formal attire in their everyday lives, and thus interprets any ankle or floor-length dress as fitting the cruise line definition of "formal." Americans who attend truly formal social occasions such as charity balls or formal weddings understand what formal wear is, because they own it, wear it, and see others wear it. On the other hand, if ship personnel also interpret a blingy caftan as meeting the cruiseline definition of formal wear, then this outfit becomes "formal" in this context, though it would not be considered formal in other contexts..

 

As has been discussed by others, what one might call "average" American culture has become extremely casual -- the average American man has never owned a tux, and probably only rented one for proms and his wedding, and the average American woman has only worn a (non-wedding) gown at prom or as a bridesmaid. Hence the tendency for American women who cruise to be seen in "black pants and a sparkly top" and for men to be seen in a sport coat, with or without tie, and slacks. This is as "formal" as it gets in many Americans' minds and closets.

 

Folks such as on this thread who are true "formal wear" enthusiasts go out of their way to purchase and wear clothing that they often only use on cruises. The whole point of this thread, I suppose, is to discuss the "culture" on Princess -- is it one where gowns and tuxes are the norm, or one where the caftan and sport coat are defined as "formal?"

 

The formal wear culture described by Princess' dress code is apparently not necessarily the one actually found to exist on board.

Sorry OzKiwi but I have to agree with Seagoing Mum. I love Camilla Franks and her kaftans but for me formal means an evening gown. The stunning kaftans are great for Xmas and New Year parties and for all our wonderful summer indoor and outdoor events but to me cruise ship formal nights are about tradition and that means an evening gown. Camilla's kaftans are plenty expensive but that doesn't make them formal wear.

The beach/outdoor culture that Australians are known for means we don't dress up often at all. In fact my beachside retirement sees me in shifts and thongs or swimmers and a wrap most days. Sometimes even a blingy kaftan for the bistro at the local pub or club. The opportunity to dress to the nines when we go cruising is one of the things that makes Princess such a great choice for us.

The "original ocean voyages"?

 

The ones where about 10% could afford first class and the dress and jewelry that went along with it. And looked down their noses at the other 90% who sailed steerage?

 

If you are trying to convince me to dress "formal" using this example is sure not going to do it.

 

The fact that I am mobile after a stroke almost 2 years ago and able to actually go on a cruise makes me blessed indeed. I am not able to walk or even keep my balance in heeled shoes. Long dresses also cause me balance problems.

 

So you will see me dressed in a lightweight pants suit, that you probably will not consider formal, and you may shake your head and wonder why I am siting in the MDR on formal night. Because of my medical needs I have already been in touch with the Maître De, the head of hotel and the medical personnel. I have also been told I will not be harassed on formal night and will be allowed into the MDR.

 

Many times you do not truly know what is going on with a person until you have walked a mile in their shoes. We should all be less judgmental.

 

I will of course enjoy watching those who do dress to the nines as I enjoy people watching.

First, let me say that medical necessity is ALWAYS an exception to every rule. My MIL had Parkinsons, so I understand not wearing a dress or heels but it is certainly possible to still dress elegantly and I doubt given your description I would notice your attire. If you tried to come into the MDR in PJs, then I am sure I would notice.

My discussion here is an intellectual one. I am addressing the people that wish to remove the dress code entirely or at least dumb it down. I take issue with those that want to bend or ignore the rules because it suits them....that is a slippery slope and where do we draw the line? How about jeans on elegant night? Are those OK? That appears to be the latest request on Carnival. After that, "dressy shorts" ...are those going to be OK?

And I hope you noted that I made multiple arguments that might appeal to the poster to which I was responding. He asked to be convinced he should continue to dress in a suit. I made an appeal to history. I understand that does not appeal to you but it might to someone else....the age of Titanic, so to speak. I argued for a restoration of manners and civility. I talked about ambiance. I pointed out that women look lovely in gowns and is that something men wish to do away with? I argued that we should keep it because lots of women enjoy it and a happy woman is a good thing.

If I change one person's mind, then my arguments were productive. If I change no one's mind, I still expressed my point which is what we do in our society - have a free exchange of ideas - and that in and of itself has value.

Princess and Cunard, with their formal nights, are in the clear minority of cruise lines. We (who love formal nights) have far fewer choices of cruise lines than those who don't. Why on earth are they complaining?

We need to email customer service and express our desire to keep formal nights and to ask that the website be removed of ambiguities on dress code. We should also request that staff enforce the dress code.

Of course any health issue that prevents one from dressing formally should be accommodated.

How about the fact that it is reminiscent and honors the days of the original ocean voyages? It evokes an idea of gentility and an era of manners that we are sorely lacking in this day and age. It preserves and acknowledges that there are times and places to leave the blue jeans and ordinary clothes behind and celebrate a special moment. Elegant clothing helps set a romantic and classic mood. Women look beautiful in evening gowns and we need and want our companions to look equally handsome.

 

And if all else fails, you can fall back on my husband's moto: Happy wife, happy life.

 

Have I convinced you now?

 

 

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I don't think you mean original ocean voyages. They must have been hellish. I think you mean the ocean voyages of the jazz age. The problem with those is that only certain people in the elite classes could take those voyages in that style. About 300 or 400 passengers had elegance and 2000 were in steerage.

I do like history and enjoyed that on the QM2, which is an ocean liner, passengers on the QM2 should wear tuxedos and evening gowns because the QM2 has no real reason to exist except as homage to the ocean liner age. I didn't mind playing a role on there because they immerse you in history. It is really well done.

Princess ships and the ships of other mainstream cruise lines are mega ships designed to have a broad appeal, not just appeal to an elite. The dining on the mainstream lines now a days is all about extra revenue and works against formal dining. They have specialty restaurants, suite restaurants, the buffet. When everyone is not together in what was the traditional dining of two seatings, that works against a formal dress code.

It is a lost cause to think that time is going to go backword and people can be forced to dress like they did 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago. Or even that we should. Society evolves.

So your argument does not convince me to wear a suit or tux. I may wear a suit though because I like to change up and I can. No matter what they call the evenings, formal, evening chic, elegant, gala, those who like to wear gowns and suits can still do so and should do so no matter what anyone else is wearing. Neither you, me or the cruise lines is going to get everyone to dress one way. That train has left the station.

i hate them im on my hols

I love the dress up nights. My job doesn't allow me to wear dresses, so cruising gives me the opportunity to wear some of the dresses I have that don't get out much (or the opportunity to buy a new dress). The dresses I wear are ones that can be worn to church or weddings-not over the top.

i hate them im on my hols

Not sure what you mean.

First, let me say that medical necessity is ALWAYS an exception to every rule. My MIL had Parkinsons, so I understand not wearing a dress or heels but it is certainly possible to still dress elegantly and I doubt given your description I would notice your attire. If you tried to come into the MDR in PJs, then I am sure I would notice.

 

My discussion here is an intellectual one. I am addressing the people that wish to remove the dress code entirely or at least dumb it down. I take issue with those that want to bend or ignore the rules because it suits them....that is a slippery slope and where do we draw the line? How about jeans on elegant night? Are those OK? That appears to be the latest request on Carnival. After that, "dressy shorts" ...are those going to be OK?

 

And I hope you noted that I made multiple arguments that might appeal to the poster to which I was responding. He asked to be convinced he should continue to dress in a suit. I made an appeal to history. I understand that does not appeal to you but it might to someone else....the age of Titanic, so to speak. I argued for a restoration of manners and civility. I talked about ambiance. I pointed out that women look lovely in gowns and is that something men wish to do away with? I argued that we should keep it because lots of women enjoy it and a happy woman is a good thing.

 

If I change one person's mind, then my arguments were productive. If I change no one's mind, I still expressed my point which is what we do in our society - have a free exchange of ideas - and that in and of itself has value.

No I would never wear my PJ's to the MDR, I just wear them to work. I am a nurse and that is what we lovingly call our scrubs.

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate that you are not trying to hammer/force your point across. Unfortunately there are some on here that do and insist that those not dressed "formal" eat elsewhere.

I would love to see a general acceptance of everyone.

Last time I was at the theater I witnessed a lovely older couple dressed to the nines having a discussion with a younger couple who were dressed in the new fashion ripped jeans and country band t-shirt. They were not discussing their respective dress or telling each other where to go, where to sit, how to dress. They were discussing their mutual love of Phantom.

This is what I would like to see. (Not ripped jeans in the MDR) A general acceptance of everyone for where they happen to be at that point in life and a whole lot less judgment.

Having had a stroke taught me a few lessons about life, it is not the tux or the ripped jeans that matter , it is the fellowship with my SO and my tablemates that matter.

Now for those that love to dress to the nines you keep dressing Princess will have a table for you and some of us who love to people watch will smile along with you.

For those who choose to dress less than formal or even casual Princess will also have a table for you.