How is it Possible That a Container Ship Collided with a USN Destroyer Near Japan?

From what I have learned, the lives of those sailors who were lost may have been due to the watertight doors being shut as their berthing compartment flooded. I find that very tragic. At what cost is it important to save the ship when these 7 sailors might have been saved?

 

From one account I read, one surviving sailor in that compartment attempted to save his bunk mates who perished. Why was his efforts cut short other than his own physical capabilities being exhausted? Was the closing of the watertight doors responsible for this?

 

I grieve for these men. If conscious, these men may have faced the horrors that those whose cabins on the Andrea Doria must have faced as their cabins rapidly flooded after the collision with the Stockholm.

I can't say exactly what this survivor actually did, or what was going on in the compartment at the time. As to closing watertight doors, it is a cruel reality of life at sea that sometimes there has to be a triage, where you sacrifice some lives to save far more. If the flooding hadn't been contained to the compartments opened to the sea, the ship could have been lost, and more lives lost in the process.

I must wonder what physics is involved with this similarity.

The Captain of the Fitzgerald ends up outside of his cabin, thankfully alive, after the collision with the freighter.

Linda Morgan, an Andrea Doria passenger, was thrown from her bunk onto the Stockholm's crushed bow when the collision occurred and she survived.

How does one explain such events?

From what I have learned, the lives of those sailors who were lost may have been due to the watertight doors being shut as their berthing compartment flooded. I find that very tragic. At what cost is it important to save the ship when these 7 sailors might have been saved?

 

 

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Given the massive damage below the waterline which led to the flooding - and loss of power to systems - it is quite possible that the rapid decision to shut the water tight doors saved the ship and many more lives which would have been jeopardized by failure to take such action. Given the lack of communicating ability,and the significant passage of time before the Crystal returned to the scene, many more lives could have been lost if immediate damage control steps had not been taken.

It is always hard when you know that not everyone can be saved. Triage allows you to make the decision with the greater good in mind, despite that meaning the sacrifice of some.

U.S. warship stayed on deadly collision course despite warning

Here's the latest report from Reuters....

http://news.trust.org/item/20170626101937-6xsul

ACX captain reportedly says Fitz made sudden turn to starboard creating a collision course. ACX warned Fitz (flashing lights not radio??), but Fitz failed to alter course. ACX turned hard starboard, but too late to avoid collision. Very strange.

U.S. warship stayed on deadly collision course despite warning

 

Here's the latest report from Reuters....

http://news.trust.org/item/20170626101937-6xsul

ACX captain reportedly says Fitz made sudden turn to starboard creating a collision course. ACX warned Fitz (flashing lights not radio??), but Fitz failed to alter course. ACX turned hard starboard, but too late to avoid collision. Very strange.

That story simply does not jibe with the fact that Crystal immediately resumed course for about a half hour before returning to site of collision and reporting .

Why flashing lights and not radio ? -- any radio transmission would have been picked up by others.

All other reports, and the track of Crystal, strongly suggest she was on auto-pilot.

From what I have learned, the lives of those sailors who were lost may have been due to the watertight doors being shut as their berthing compartment flooded. I find that very tragic. At what cost is it important to save the ship when these 7 sailors might have been saved?

 

From one account I read, one surviving sailor in that compartment attempted to save his bunk mates who perished. Why was his efforts cut short other than his own physical capabilities being exhausted? Was the closing of the watertight doors responsible for this?

 

I grieve for these men. If conscious, these men may have faced the horrors that those whose cabins on the Andrea Doria must have faced as their cabins rapidly flooded after the collision with the Stockholm.

Yes, it is tragic but we were trained in boot camp and in all damage control classes for this eventuality- if a compartment is flooding you secure the hatch first regardless of who is left in the compartment. Saving the ship is paramount in this circumstance.

"Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea!"

Nice of you to apologize in advance for the cheap shots.

It's not an apology if he's not sorry.

There is one thing that I keep going over in my head. If the Fitz was on maneuvers why wasn't the Captain on the bridge. Was the ship on maneuvers for days or weeks? Or just during that particular night. If only at night I find it hard to believe the Captain would not be present.

Also on a different note. I find Chengs posts informative most of the time.

At times though when he is wrong, he will fight you to the end. Being stubborn or really believing he is right, either way he can be difficult at times.

Yes, it is tragic but we were trained in boot camp and in all damage control classes for this eventuality- if a compartment is flooding you secure the hatch first regardless of who is left in the compartment. Saving the ship is paramount in this circumstance.

 

"Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea!"

Thank you for your post. It is helpful for me.

That story simply does not jibe with the fact that Crystal immediately resumed course for about a half hour before returning to site of collision and reporting .

 

Why flashing lights and not radio ? -- any radio transmission would have been picked up by others.

 

All other reports, and the track of Crystal, strongly suggest she was on auto-pilot.

Something doesn't sound right here, sounds like one person's view.

In a few hours (1000 local time), the Yokosuka base will hold a memorial service for those who perished on the Fitz. The base has asked personnel to form a Line of Honor for Fitz's surviving sailors as they travel to the service. Please keep them in your thoughts and prayers.

Yes, it is tragic but we were trained in boot camp and in all damage control classes for this eventuality- if a compartment is flooding you secure the hatch first regardless of who is left in the compartment. Saving the ship is paramount in this circumstance.

 

"Oh, hear us when we cry to Thee, For those in peril on the sea!"

Who I feel sorry for are the guys on the Damage Control Party.

They had to dog down the Zulu Hatches to maintain integrity.

MAYBE knowing that some of their buddies could be in the Compartment.

They will remember it for the rest of their lives.

at night on a Naval vessel most of these water tight doors were closed

a report to the effect is made to the XO at 1945 by the department heads .....

this is one of the things you miss when you talk to a 'merchie' versus a 'combatant'

a Naval vessel has three levels of water tight integrity ... the ways the door and hatches are closed to support water tight integrity .... MUCH beyond what is found on a commercial vessel. (want detail? look at military specs versus US Bureau of Ships , aka BUSHIPS)

X is normal steaming in day time

Z is close everything we can for battle .....

Y is an increased level of protection and closes many more door and fittings .... intended for 'risk' areas this is ALSO the condition a USN/USCG changes to at night .. and setting same is reported to the XO at 'evening reports' by the department heads at 1945 .... in other words we are tucked in for the night.

As CO I required my senior enlisted to check the setting of YOKE ..... and required the XO to do spot checks ..... and did my own .... every night underway

at night on a Naval vessel most of these water tight doors were closed

 

a report to the effect is made to the XO at 1945 by the department heads .....

 

this is one of the things you miss when you talk to a 'merchie' versus a 'combatant'

 

a Naval vessel has three levels of water tight integrity ... the ways the door and hatches are closed to support water tight integrity .... MUCH beyond what is found on a commercial vessel. (want detail? look at military specs versus US Bureau of Ships , aka BUSHIPS)

 

X is normal steaming in day time

Z is close everything we can for battle .....

Y is an increased level of protection and closes many more door and fittings .... intended for 'risk' areas this is ALSO the condition a USN/USCG changes to at night .. and setting same is reported to the XO at 'evening reports' by the department heads at 1945 .... in other words we are tucked in for the night.

 

As CO I required my senior enlisted to check the setting of YOKE ..... and required the XO to do spot checks ..... and did my own .... every night underway

Yes, and to best of my recollection all hatches into berthing compartments and inhabited spaces below decks were Zebra fittings and were only dogged during General Quarters, which is a far cry from "most of these water tight doors were closed".

 

a Naval vessel has three levels of water tight integrity ... the ways the door and hatches are closed to support water tight integrity .... MUCH beyond what is found on a commercial vessel. (want detail? look at military specs versus US Bureau of Ships , aka BUSHIPS)

 

Since "BUSHIPS" was a Navy Bureau, though changed in the 60's to "NAVSHIPS", and finally "NAVSEA" since the 70's, it would deal with military specs. I believe you are referring to the American Bureau of Ships (ABS), which is a commercial ship classification society?

There is one thing that I keep going over in my head. If the Fitz was on maneuvers why wasn't the Captain on the bridge. Was the ship on maneuvers for days or weeks? Or just during that particular night. If only at night I find it hard to believe the Captain would not be present.

This happened about 2am...people must sleep. The CO is not going to stay on the bridge 24/7. That is why people are qualified to stand watch on the bridge. Plus the CO's cabin is usually a very short distance form the bridge.

Yes, and to best of my recollection all hatches into berthing compartments and inhabited spaces below decks were Zebra fittings and were only dogged during General Quarters, which is a far cry from "most of these water tight doors were closed".

Exactly..as a former DC we were not dropping hatches every night underway.

Also on a different note. I find Chengs posts informative most of the time.

 

At times though when he is wrong, he will fight you to the end. Being stubborn or really believing he is right, either way he can be difficult at times.

I don't recall him being wrong in this post. He has spoken from his experience as a commercial mariner and in case anyone hasn't figured it out there is a world of difference between the operation of commercial ships and US Navy or US Coast Guard ships.

Plus 1.

Interesting side note here: the undergraduate education at neither the US Naval Academy nor USCG Academy includes training or experience sufficient to qualify their graduates as USCG unlimited licensed deck or engineering officers. For that, a "young" mariner would need to attend one of the state academies (e.g., Cal Maritime, Maine, Mass., et al.) or the Kings Point federal merchant marine academy.

There's good reason for that. A couple years "in the chair" between land tours doesn't hold a candle to the experience of a professional merchant mariner.

As much as I adore the military (DW is retired USCG), ship driving is not their strength. I used to cringe when my husband's ship came in. Every single time, they would either hit the pier or have to back out to reapproach. He was the Engineering Officer, so he would just walk off shaking his head.

When it comes to life at sea, I will always give favor to the Kings Point graduate over some rookie who merely commanded 1 or 2 ships over a number of years I can count on one hand.

Plus 1.

Interesting side note here: the undergraduate education at neither the US Naval Academy nor USCG Academy includes training or experience sufficient to qualify their graduates as USCG unlimited licensed deck or engineering officers. For that, a "young" mariner would need to attend one of the state academies (e.g., Cal Maritime, Maine, Mass., et al.) or the Kings Point federal merchant marine academy.

 

 

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There's good reason for that. A couple years "in the chair" between land tours doesn't hold a candle to the experience of a professional merchant mariner.

 

As much as I adore the military (DW is retired USCG), ship driving is not their strength. I used to cringe when my husband's ship came in. Every single time, they would either hit the pier or have to back out to reapproach. He was the Engineering Officer, so he would just walk off shaking his head.

 

When it comes to life at sea, I will always give favor to the Kings Point graduate over some rookie who merely commanded 1 or 2 ships over a number of years I can count on one hand.

And yet, any graduate of Kings Point or the state maritime academies are qualified to both get their USCG license and a commission in any of the US Armed Services.

There's good reason for that. A couple years "in the chair" between land tours doesn't hold a candle to the experience of a professional merchant mariner.

 

 

 

As much as I adore the military (DW is retired USCG), ship driving is not their strength. I used to cringe when my husband's ship came in. Every single time, they would either hit the pier or have to back out to reapproach. He was the Engineering Officer, so he would just walk off shaking his head.

 

 

 

When it comes to life at sea, I will always give favor to the Kings Point graduate over some rookie who merely commanded 1 or 2 ships over a number of years I can count on one hand.

Kings Point is an outstanding institution and a bargain as well. It could, however, benefit from some much needed enhancements to its facilities.

Any student interested in a maritime career should definitely consider pursuing an undergraduate degree at the California Maritime Academy (a California State University campus). Beyond the TS Golden Bear and its many unique features (including a second "virtual" bridge), there are "state of the art" deck (multistory 360 degree) and engineering simulators on campus and, in particular, the campus offers an unrivaled marine/mechanical engineering program. For California residents, the cost is surprisingly affordable and students from certain other states (including Hawaii and Alaska) have discounted access as well. Of course, good grades are a must as CMA is highly selective.

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There's good reason for that. A couple years "in the chair" between land tours doesn't hold a candle to the experience of a professional merchant mariner.

 

As much as I adore the military (DW is retired USCG), ship driving is not their strength. I used to cringe when my husband's ship came in. Every single time, they would either hit the pier or have to back out to reapproach. He was the Engineering Officer, so he would just walk off shaking his head.

 

When it comes to life at sea, I will always give favor to the Kings Point graduate over some rookie who merely commanded 1 or 2 ships over a number of years I can count on one hand.

Of course Navy education involves different functions - Kings Point grads haven't spent time on weapons, etc. which is why the Navy/CG CO is either on the bridge or on call at all times.

But that reference to hitting the pier or having to re-approach "Every single time..." indicates an unusually unhappy ship.

Of course Navy education involves different functions - Kings Point grads haven't spent time on weapons, etc. which is why the Navy/CG CO is either on the bridge or on call at all times.

 

And a merchant ship's Captain is either on the bridge or on call at all times as well. And, as noted, the merchant marine academy graduates can take their commission and follow virtually any training path available, as nybumpkin's son has become a SWO after graduation from Kings Point.