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Rights when Bumped from Flight


parrotfeathers
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You will be violently dragged from the plane and tossed into a Turkish prison, from which your loved ones will never hear a word from you.

 

;p

 

Ok, not really that bad.

 

DL will first ask for volunteers to give up their seats in exchange for compensation and a later itinerary. If that does not get enough people to take care of everyone, DL will do "involuntary denied boarding". This means that some people will not be boarded and will be forced to take a later flight, again with compensation. The priority on who gets IDBed is usually a combination of fare bucket (cheap seats first), FF status, check-in time, ability to reroute and some sprinkles of black magic.

 

Just because a flight is sold-out doesn't mean that it will require volunteers or IDB. I can recall being on a flight that was oversold by 30 and went out with empty seats. Also, the number of IDBs is very very small, and is usually the resut of an aircraft swap to a smaller airplane that just didn't have as many seats. Going to MIA, I would not worry. (Also, if worse comes to worse, have them send you to FLL and give you a voucher to cover transport costs to MIA. DL has almost hourly flights between ATL and FLL.)

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But, when a flight is "sold out" (to Miami) how will Delta handle a passenger that is bumped from a flight?

 

Your concern should be with flights that are oversold, not sold out. Sold out means they've sold exactly the number of tickets as there are seats on the flight. Oversold means they've sold more tickets than they have seats available. Don't be overly concerned though, because many airlines routinely oversell flights, knowing that some % of passengers won't show up or will make last minute changes. It's very common to have a full flight, and the next thing you know they are accommodating standby passengers because there are available seats due to passenger changes and no-shows. If not, then it's as Flyertalker said.... first asking for volunteers, then going to IDB's, based on fare class, FF status etc.

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From my discussions with some of the Airlines personnel, a change is in the wind for this discussion. That change involves those people, on those flights, that hold the new(er) Basic Economy tickets.

 

It is my understanding that on those specific flights only, volunteers for bumps may no longer be requested, but will be chosen from those holding BE tickets. Actually, they'll choose who they give boarding passes to , at the gate, and the remainder are by nature just bumped. What compensation follows will depend upon the circumstances. If it's only a couple of hours wait, it may be no more than a meal voucher. Getting a $700-$1k voucher for a short term delay on a BE ticket is not going to be happening in the future.

 

How all of this plays out is still a work in progress. A lot of considerations need to be made before purchasing a Basic Economy ticket.

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From my discussions with some of the Airlines personnel, a change is in the wind for this discussion. That change involves those people, on those flights, that hold the new(er) Basic Economy tickets.

 

It is my understanding that on those specific flights only, volunteers for bumps may no longer be requested, but will be chosen from those holding BE tickets. Actually, they'll choose who they give boarding passes to , at the gate, and the remainder are by nature just bumped. What compensation follows will depend upon the circumstances. If it's only a couple of hours wait, it may be no more than a meal voucher. Getting a $700-$1k voucher for a short term delay on a BE ticket is not going to be happening in the future.

 

I have a hard time believing this. If they choose who to give boarding passes to at the gate, that becomes an involuntary bump and will cost them a lot more money than voluntary bumps unless it is an extremely cheap ticket that was bought. Especially since involuntary is cash and voluntary is usually a voucher.

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You obviously don't understand the terms and conditions of the new Basic Economy tickets now being marketed for some flights. Google those tickets for info.

 

One example is there is no pre selecting seats for those tickets. Seat assignments will be made either by the check in clerk or by the gate agent. One holding a BE ticket then shows up at the gate without a seat assignment, so they have no seat to give up, if not boarded. What they have, if not selected to board on an oversold flight is a ticket from A to B. Never a specific seat on any flight.

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From my discussions with some of the Airlines personnel, a change is in the wind for this discussion. That change involves those people, on those flights, that hold the new(er) Basic Economy tickets.

 

It is my understanding that on those specific flights only, volunteers for bumps may no longer be requested, but will be chosen from those holding BE tickets. Actually, they'll choose who they give boarding passes to , at the gate, and the remainder are by nature just bumped. What compensation follows will depend upon the circumstances. If it's only a couple of hours wait, it may be no more than a meal voucher. Getting a $700-$1k voucher for a short term delay on a BE ticket is not going to be happening in the future.

 

How all of this plays out is still a work in progress. A lot of considerations need to be made before purchasing a Basic Economy ticket.

 

I'm sorry, but this is flat out incorrect. Your "airline people" must not know about federal law 14 CFR 250.2b. That law requires that airlines first request for volunteers.

 

Now, what it might be is that after they do ask for volunteers, they will do IDBs from the "basic economy" passengers first. That's not much of a change from current practice, where fare basis is one of several criteria.

 

As for your compensation statement, that too is incorrect. IDB compensation is covered by federal law 14 CFR 250.5, which specifies mandatory compensation levels for passengers who are IDBed.

 

Please provide some kind of documentation to show where these fares are not subject to federal law. Until then, I have to say that your post is nothing more than idle speculation and projection.

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Fortunately the incorrect info that was posted about Basic Economy passengers being bumped with little or no compensation has been addressed. Airlines can do a lot of things to ruin a person's experience, but they can't just ignore federal regulations regarding IDB, which are very specific.

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One holding a BE ticket then shows up at the gate without a seat assignment, so they have no seat to give up, if not boarded. What they have, if not selected to board on an oversold flight is a ticket from A to B. Never a specific seat on any flight.

 

You don't need to have a seat assignment to get IDB compensation. You simply need to be confirmed on the flight.

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Water bug;

 

I agree they still get the compensation based on their airfare paid. But if that low fare ticket cost $300,each leg is worth $150x 200% ( depending upon the next flight they get), that's $300 by law, not the larger numbers people see on other flights/tickets.

 

Not having a seat assignment is one of the categories that move people up on the list to be involuntarily bumped. So Basic Economy tickets holders have two strikes against them starting out. Low airfare class and no seat assignments.

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If you're purchasing flights through the cruise line such as Princess EZ-Air (flexible fare), is there a way to tell if you're purchasing a Basic Economy fare?

 

I think this almost happened to us before I learned what BE Fare was. When I booked our EZ-Air flights (about 300 days in advance), I was able to select our seats. But occasionally, I'd check our reservation and noticed our seats had been moved or just completely removed. I'd have to select seats farther towards the back of the plane.

 

Sometime after our final payment was made (75 days before cruise), our seat selection disappeared and this time, we were not able to select any seats. Luckily, we were more than 45 days out from sailing so I changed the airlines. So we switched from Delta to United. Our reservation with United let us select seats and upgrade to Premium Economy.

 

So I suspect that we weren't allowed to select seats on the Delta flight because it was BE fare. I know UAL also has BE Fare but I guess we were just lucky that we didn't get that type when we switched to UAL.

 

So I was just wondering if there is a way to find out the type of fare you're purchasing upfront. Or do you have to wait until it's ticketed?

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I too would like to know, not Ezair specifically but cruise line air in general. I've read that one can't tell, and I've read that the code can be thus or that that but also read that code for the class of ticket can be airline specific so confused. Would be helpful fir answers from the knowledgeable posters in this board vs. things I've read on "the Internet" .

 

Even if we can figure out if the class is in BE, (is it most times?) at the time it is ticketed then it seems we are still too late to do anything to improve it.

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Can't address everything, but here's a start.

 

If you're purchasing flights through the cruise line such as Princess EZ-Air (flexible fare), is there a way to tell if you're purchasing a Basic Economy fare?

 

Completely depends on what information the cruiseline is passing along to you through their booking interface. And there is no standard.

 

When I booked our EZ-Air flights (about 300 days in advance), I was able to select our seats.
Sometime after our final payment was made (75 days before cruise), our seat selection disappeared and this time, we were not able to select any seats.
This points out a significant distinction. At your initial "booking", you merely had a reservation for flights. It is almost certain that an actual ticket wasn't issued until you made your payment. (Thought problem: Do you think you would get an airline ticket issued without payment? You don't have a cruise ticket until paid for....same concept.) Now, when you get a ticket, it may or many not reflect what you thought you had previously. There have been anecdotal reports (grain of salt time) that wholesale changes can happen between the "booking" and actual ticket issuance.

 

So I was just wondering if there is a way to find out the type of fare you're purchasing upfront. Or do you have to wait until it's ticketed?
Depends on the interface of the cruiseline front-end, and how savvy one might be to decipher what they might be buying. With an airline website, they are required to disclose all details about the ticket (though that often takes some sleuthing as well). Reports (again, grain of salt) are that airline sites are somewhat more transparent. Partially, that is because the airlines are selling you the ticket at that time....no "booking" with payments months later.

 

I too would like to know, not Ezair specifically but cruise line air in general. I've read that one can't tell, and I've read that the code can be thus or that that but also read that code for the class of ticket can be airline specific so confused. Would be helpful fir answers from the knowledgeable posters in this board vs. things I've read on "the Internet".

 

Aside from the standard full-fare F, C, J and Y, fare basis codes vary across the industry. There have been efforts to harmonize within airline alliances and across joint-ventures. But you basically have to research the codes for each carrier - what UA calls "N", AA calls "B" and DL calls "E". And even there, the rules are different for each carrier, with DL having the most liberal of the three. And beyond those lowest fare buckets, other fares have different restrictions, including fare rules for significantly restricted "unpublished" (aka consolidator/bulk/negotiated) fare buckets.

 

Even if we can figure out if the class is in BE, (is it most times?) at the time it is ticketed then it seems we are still too late to do anything to improve it.
Can't say, as it depends on what information is divulged to you at the time of booking and before payment. I do not cruise on most mass-market lines, so I have zero experience with the booking interface for Carnival or Royal Caribbean or NCL or similar. However, once you are ticketed onto these fares, you are pretty much stuck. They have little to no provision for changes or applying ticket value to another flight.

 

Best advice I can give - if you cannot find out what the fare rules are for a proposed ticket, and you aren''t sure about what you might be buying, DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING. For your assumption will turn out for the worse.

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Thank you FlyerTalker for your input and advice! Yes, we learned this time around that booking/reserving cruise air is not the same as purchasing it.

 

Never been an issue before but this time it became evident probably because of the new BE fare.

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But if that low fare ticket cost $300,each leg is worth $150x 200% ( depending upon the next flight they get), that's $300 by law, not the larger numbers people see on other flights/tickets.
That is the devil in the details. People see those numbers in the law, $675 and $1350, and think that the law is saying that that's how much IDB is, and therefore that that's what voluntary bumping compensation should be close to, when the reality is that unless an airline employee screws up voluntary bumping compensation won't be more than twice the portion of the lowest (booked) airfare attributable to the overbooked segment.

 

I also believe, it is possible with certain types of fare construction that a $300 connection may not be $150 x 2, but rather one segment can be $250 and the next segment $50, for example, throwing another wrench into the machine.

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Of course, there is another type of bumping that occurs when the passenger has no rights except money back on the ticket.

 

How many times have one's travel itinerary been changed by the Airlines?Was that change due to schedule changes, aircraft type changes, or the computer recognizing a flight is oversold and according to its algorithms moving a passenger to another flight? With out a lot of work, one may not know. That great itinerary, you paid extra for, just became a nightmare, as the computer says you're going on my schedule.

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Of course, there is another type of bumping that occurs when the passenger has no rights except money back on the ticket.

 

Oooh. Now we know that an airline's schedule changes are now "bumping". Nice work, changing meanings of words, especially terms of art in the industry.

 

How many times have one's travel itinerary been changed by the Airlines?Was that change due to schedule changes, aircraft type changes, or the computer recognizing a flight is oversold and according to its algorithms moving a passenger to another flight? With out a lot of work, one may not know.
This has become the new norm for internet discussions. Create a fanciful hypothetical, aver that it is "possible", then contend that the possibility must be true unless you can prove it doesn't happen.

 

That great itinerary, you paid extra for, just became a nightmare, as the computer says you're going on my schedule.
There is no nefarious plotting happening in Dallas, Atlanta or Chicago. Schedules change as airplanes and crews are re-arranged to fit market conditions. In addition, people confuse a "cancellation" with a "schedule change", which are two separate events and concepts. A flight is "cancelled" when it will not operate on specific date - usually due to mechanical, crew or weather issues. They are not cancelled just because sales aren't as expected. A flight is "changed" when flight schedules in a city-pair are rearranged on an ongoing (non one-off) basis. This can be for market reasons (increased or decreased overall demand), for maintenance or crew scheduling reasons, or operational reasons (data shows that moving the flight 2 hours earlier will facilitate better onward connections for more passengers). Because of all the ripple effects of schedule changes on aircraft, crew and maintenance resources, these are not made in any kind of capricious fashion. Nor because an airline wants to avoid making VDB or IDB payments.

 

But, thanks for a new conspiracy theory for the weekend.

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This has become the new norm for internet discussions. Create a fanciful hypothetical, aver that it is "possible", then contend that the possibility must be true unless you can prove it doesn't happen...But, thanks for a new conspiracy theory for the weekend.

 

This.

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Good stories from yesterday...Delta paid one passenger $4000 to take a voluntary bump to a flight 9hrs later. Flight was ATL-SBN for the UGA vs. Notre Dame game, and the timing meant the bumped passenger was still able to make the game.

https://thepointsguy.com/2017/09/delta-4000-dollars-passenger-bump/

 

It was also reported that another couple on a later ATL-SBN flight bagged $8500 in credits EACH to route via MSP. $17k in credits isn't half bad for an 8hr later arrival. Again voluntary.

Edited by fbgd
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Nefarious or conspiracy theory!? I was recently "bumped ", I'll use that term, from my BC seat on an upcoming flight to a later flight. I called the airline to get our seats back. Per the Agent" we're sorry that flight is overbooked, and no seats to put you into, so we can't put you back on that flight". My response "why we're we chosen, we've had those tickets for eight months?"

 

Agent response" probably because the computer recognized you had a four hour layover until your next flight (transoceanic), and automatically moved you to a legal 1.5 hour layover!"

 

I didn't want a 1.5 hour layover, but my only other option was going to a 6+ hour layover that I didn't want either!

 

So don't give me your smug conspiracy theory crap. A lot of reasons occur that affects rescheduled flights.

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It should be noted that how long you've had your seat assignments has absolutely no significance whatsoever when it comes to any kind of change of aircraft even from a 200 seats 737 to a 198 seat 737. Whenever any aspect of the aircraft or the schedule changes it is possible to lose seat assignments and have new seat assignments assigned that were different from the ones you had before.

 

This post may have been entered by voice recognition. Please excuse any typographical errors.

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Nefarious or conspiracy theory!? I was recently "bumped ", I'll use that term, from my BC seat on an upcoming flight to a later flight. I called the airline to get our seats back. Per the Agent" we're sorry that flight is overbooked, and no seats to put you into, so we can't put you back on that flight". My response "why we're we chosen, we've had those tickets for eight months?"

 

Agent response" probably because the computer recognized you had a four hour layover until your next flight (transoceanic), and automatically moved you to a legal 1.5 hour layover!"

 

I didn't want a 1.5 hour layover, but my only other option was going to a 6+ hour layover that I didn't want either!

 

So don't give me your smug conspiracy theory crap. A lot of reasons occur that affects rescheduled flights.

 

Many missing details. Airline, Cities, Dates. Most importantly, aircraft type and configuration. If a flight is downgauged, it is physically impossible for all passengers to be put into the new aircraft. Even within the same aircraft type. Delta has six different configs for the 757-200. One of them has 24 F seats, four have 20, and one has 16. So let's say that originally a 24 first seater was for your flight. But, for operational reasons, it gets replaced with a 20. All 24 seats have been sold. What do you want the airline to do....bolt 4 first class seats into the aisle? Somebody needs to move, either to a different flight or to a coach seat.

 

Apparently, you feel that having your seat booked for eight months means you should get to keep it. Let me run by a hypothetical by you. You have a 1 hour connect at XXX you bought one month ago. Your flight gets downgauged. And you now miss your onward flight. Now, do you still think that the airline should have just reassigned seats because of how long you've had your reservation? Or should the airline work to reaccommodate passengers so that the most folks can make onward connections? Shoe on the other foot.

 

So you don't want the 1.5 hour connect. You don't want your 6 hour connect. Just who should your unspecified airline move to give you YOUR seat? And aside from it suiting you, why should someone likely misconnect just to make you happy?

 

Finally, the agent has no definitive knowledge as to the why behind the computer system's rebooking. They are making an educated guess, based on the logic of the situation.

 

As more and more info comes out, it seems we have an unhappy traveler, complaining about an airline, and ascribing all manner of theories to what happened. You feel "bumped" and it's all the mean airline's fault.

 

Perhaps NetJets might be a better option for you. You won't get "bumped" and you can fly whenever you prefer.

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As more and more info comes out, it seems we have an unhappy traveler, complaining about an airline, and ascribing all manner of theories to what happened. You feel "bumped" and it's all the mean airline's fault.
To be fair, that sort of thing is running at an all-time high. Especially over the last few weeks, with the cruise lines' responses to the hurricanes, the prevalence of unfounded expectations by consumers, unsupported by the terms and conditions of the agreements they enter into, is overwhelming.
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