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Lets talk about tipping


shooie
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This is what I think folks.

Some of the best service I ever get is on Cruise ships, the standard is far in excess of hotels, the crew are hard working, and anxious to please, and are paid lousy, exploitative wages.

 

1. Never pay tips in advance, the crew never see it.

2. Pay tips to people who impress you with their service and try to be generous.

3. Some Cruise lines demand, shamefully, that all gratuities are handed over, on pain of dismissal, so one must consider that

 

My view is that if you pay them directly and they hand it over, at least they will be recognised by the company as having provided good service to the guest, and it will help the person you tip in the long run.

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For most cruise lines the daily service if is a suggested amount so just opt out and then follow your plan. sparks is correct many of these threads on this site, none of them seem to change anything. For the most part members come to the thread with minds already made up and very few change no matter what is posted.

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the crew are hard working, and anxious to please, and are paid lousy, exploitative wages.
True.

 

1. Never pay tips in advance, the crew never see it.
False.

 

2. Pay tips to people who impress you with their service and try to be generous.
Pay standards tips so that the hard-working, anxious to please people who are paid lousy, exploitative wages, but do work that you don't see quite so easily and therefore does not strike you as impressive, are compensated as fairly as the people with more visible jobs.

 

3. Some Cruise lines demand, shamefully, that all gratuities are handed over, on pain of dismissal, so one must consider that
Not shamefully, but rather to a great extent in the interest of fairness to the aforementioned less visible hard-working, anxious to please people who are paid lousy, exploitative wages.

 

If I can't rely on the cruise line to pass the tips onto the crew then I can't trust the cruise line to get me to where I'm going.
Dang, you hit the nail on the head.
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True.

 

False.

 

Pay standards tips so that the hard-working, anxious to please people who are paid lousy, exploitative wages, but do work that you don't see quite so easily and therefore does not strike you as impressive, are compensated as fairly as the people with more visible jobs.

 

Not shamefully, but rather to a great extent in the interest of fairness to the aforementioned less visible hard-working, anxious to please people who are paid lousy, exploitative wages.

 

Dang, you hit the nail on the head.

 

And because you post it that makes it true. Like I already said two sides here and no one is going to more. If the OP wants to remove the service fee that is between him/her and the cruise line, if you do not like that.... well sorry not within your control.

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And because you post it that makes it true. Like I already said two sides here and no one is going to more. If the OP wants to remove the service fee that is between him/her and the cruise line, if you do not like that.... well sorry not within your control.

 

You are 100% correct, this is something only the individual can control (as is the case with the vast majority of the human condition). But if by advocating for the crew I can keep one person from removing gratuities for no reason (or for reasons that are largely irrelevant) then it's worth it to me to give my opinion and share what knowledge I have.

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Indeed the first part of your post is true. There are many who would like to see crew get a fair wage like many other countries and industries. Some Oz cruise lines or Oz versions of lines (including the very American Carnival) include the tips as part of the fair and still offer a very very competitive price so I am sure it is possible for all involved.

 

I agree with not paying tips before you sail but not because someone will not see it but because if something really goes bad with the service then I can't get my money back (rare but possible). I believe the reason for computer automated tips was to make everything more efficient rather than money in envelopes everywhere.

 

There has been quite a bit of debate here of how much the staff gets of the automated tips but no-one really knows despite what they tell you. There is also a debate on whether to hand it out yourself and take your computer tips away as some say this means unseen staff do not get their share.

 

Tipping on this forum tends to get quite heated on here(I should know) especially when their are differing views from different countries.

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You are 100% correct, this is something only the individual can control (as is the case with the vast majority of the human condition). But if by advocating for the crew I can keep one person from removing gratuities for no reason (or for reasons that are largely irrelevant) then it's worth it to me to give my opinion and share what knowledge I have.

 

And we can agree if you can change one person to keep the Auto Service fee in place, I know I can get two people to remove it. So our reasons are really the same. But as I see it you are not advocating for the crew in fact your position hurts the crew. If you really cared about the crew you would be pushing for the cruise line to pay the staff.

 

A few posters back made a great point any senior homes, most of the working staff is at low wages, but they do not get tips. Why not advocate for your fellow Americans who live, work and pay taxes in the United States? We cannot solve the problem of the World if you took all the money from the 10 riches people in the World and gave to the poorest people, a week later the only change would be, more poor.

 

Please do not take this personal because while I believe your heart is in the right place. The way the Corporations have twisted and framed this have you making the wrong choice. As I already said this system does more harm to the crew than good..

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And because you post it that makes it true. Like I already said two sides here and no one is going to more. If the OP wants to remove the service fee that is between him/her and the cruise line, if you do not like that.... well sorry not within your control.

 

You are quoting the official phony excuse the Cruise lines hand out to encourage pre tipping. " It's so we can share it out folks".

No, its so that they can use it to subsidise the meagre salaries they pay.

Either you are very naïve, or you work for a Cruise company.

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Expat - I know you think the present system of tipping vs. paying a living wage and adding that amount to the base fare is wrong but it’s been this way since I took my first cruise 30 years ago and was this way long before that. It works for the mainstream lines and I don’t see them changing it to make you or others, especially those from a non-tipping culture, happy.

 

To the OP - please cite facts and proof that prepaid or automatic tips go to the cruise lines’ coffers and not to the crew. If you cannot, I’ll just have to write you off as another cheap jerk out to stiff the crew while rationalizing with lies to make it possible to look yourself in the mirror every day.

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I agree with not paying tips before you sail but not because someone will not see it but because if something really goes bad with the service then I can't get my money back (rare but possible).
Is that a UK-specific thing? We America passengers surely can adjust our prepaid gratuities once aboard.

 

There is also a debate on whether to hand it out yourself and take your computer tips away as some say this means unseen staff do not get their share.
While I've always been okay with the automatic gratuities, what really sealed the deal for me was learning about the extra scrutiny directed at the staff from whom passengers removed the automatic gratuities, given that they're are thereby obligated to turn whatever tips they get into the tipping pool, while if passengers simply left the automatic gratuities in place then those staff members would be allowed to pocket whatever they're given directly.

 

The only impact removing automatic gratuities has is making things worse for the staff you are trying to help.

Edited by bUU
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You are quoting the official phony excuse the Cruise lines hand out to encourage pre tipping. " It's so we can share it out folks".

No, its so that they can use it to subsidise the meagre salaries they pay.

Either you are very naïve, or you work for a Cruise company.

 

I think you need to be more careful when you pick what to quote. I am the most anti company tipping policy you will find. I never allow them on my account..... Have never failed to get them removed, even when it involved going through credit card chargebacks. I told a Hotel Director who was wanted to question me about it......You do not have the right to question me about my choices, if you want to push this we can, through your corporate legal department. He just turned and walked away tail between his legs.

 

I hate auto tipping, I pick who to tip, when to tip and how much to tip.

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Is that a UK-specific thing? We America passengers surely can adjust our prepaid gratuities once aboard.

 

While I've always been okay with the automatic gratuities, what really sealed the deal for me was learning about the extra scrutiny directed at the staff from whom passengers removed the automatic gratuities, given that they're are thereby obligated to turn whatever tips they get into the tipping pool, while if passengers simply left the automatic gratuities in place then those staff members would be allowed to pocket whatever they're given directly.

 

The only impact removing automatic gratuities has is making things worse for the staff you are trying to help.

 

Not sure on the prepaid thing but when booking with Carnival for the 1st time the lady on the phone (In Miami) asked if I wanted to prepay my grats before sailing then said if I did I would not be able to change them once on board. On all our cruises we have been advised that we can adjust our tips/remove them if we needed as we didn't prepay or anything.

 

Without my personal weigh-in on the computer tips vs cash tips it seems some cruisers worry about the possible 'admin costs' of computer tips so the full amount may not go to the staff and some say tipping should be about the service staff that you see. Not saying I agree or disagree with these points but just what I have heard on here.

 

Naturally I just wish the lines would pay them a fair wage (no prices do not have to go up to do this...check out Oz and Asia lines) then all this worry goes away but there you go. I have not seen a good argument for why the US service model works when customers pay more than they should, staff worry about their paycheck and the service is exactly as satisfying when this model is absent and prices are similar too. The only winner in it is the owners of the company. It is for this reason the rest of the Western world do not do it and the only reason it is so common in the cruise industry is because of how Americanised the industry is as a whole.

Edited by Velvetwater
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You are quoting the official phony excuse the Cruise lines hand out to encourage pre tipping. " It's so we can share it out folks".

No, its so that they can use it to subsidise the meagre salaries they pay.

Either you are very naïve, or you work for a Cruise company.

 

Well it's clear that your viewpoint on autotips is, "the cruise line is skimming at least part of it instead of paying it out to crew members". If that were true then the crew would strike or quit. Given your posting history of being "fed up" with late pricing discounts and handling of air connections it would seem that cruising may not be for you. Why patronize a business if they are mistreating their customers? We have the power to vote with our wallets.

 

I agree that this tipping situation is way outmoded and needs to change. Many will state that the crew should just be paid a "decent wage" (how is that defined?) and everything should be rolled into the base fare. But the minute a cruise line does that they immediately look more expensive than their competitors. $799 plus gratuities will get the business and $900 gratuities included will not.

Edited by BlueRiband
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I agree that this tipping situation is way outmoded and needs to change. Many will state that the crew should just be paid a "decent wage" (how is that defined?) and everything should be rolled into the base fare. But the minute a cruise line does that they immediately look more expensive than their competitors. $799 plus gratuities will get the business and $900 gratuities included will not.

 

Exactly! Current system is not perfect, but i pay my daily tips, service charge, or whatever you want to describe it as. Love the fact that it is billed daily to my account and I use onboard credit to pay. I also tip extra in cash to those not included, e.g. Concierge/Diamond lounge staff.

 

I have been cruising long enough to remember the days of the empty dining room on the last night of the cruise when envelopes were passed out. People who didn't show up then now have it easier - they just go to guest services and remove their tips.

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Not sure on the prepaid thing but when booking with Carnival for the 1st time the lady on the phone (In Miami) asked if I wanted to prepay my grats before sailing then said if I did I would not be able to change them once on board. On all our cruises we have been advised that we can adjust our tips/remove them if we needed as we didn't prepay or anything.
I think we can safely assume that the lady in Miami with whom you spoke was mistaken.

 

Without my personal weigh-in on the computer tips vs cash tips it seems some cruisers worry about the possible 'admin costs' of computer tips so the full amount may not go to the staff and some say tipping should be about the service staff that you see.
Given the stringent requirements to turn in cash gratuities, if the passenger had removed automatic gratuities, whatever administrative costs may apply will be incurred regardless. While what you're saying makes sense for tipping on top of the automatic gratuities, it doesn't work for the automatic gratuities themselves.

 

Naturally I just wish the lines would pay them a fair wage (no prices do not have to go up to do this...check out Oz and Asia lines) then all this worry goes away but there you go. I have not seen a good argument for why the US service model works when customers pay more than they should, staff worry about their paycheck and the service is exactly as satisfying when this model is absent and prices are similar too.
Well a few things: First, customers don't pay more than they should, this way. That's something people who don't like the system say, but there's nothing substantial behind those words.

 

Second, I once heard Micky Arison, who was CEO of Carnival for over thirty years, explain it. In a nutshell, it recognizes that the passenger is in the best position to assess the quality of service provided, and so every inch of distance between the passenger and the person assessing the quality of service a staff member provides, the more inaccurate the system.

 

One has to also believe that Arison was motivated by the belief that staff will work harder to please when they have that more direct reward. I think the changes in the industry, especially automatic gratuities, are evidence that Arison was wrong about that.

 

That leaves the question as to whether passengers are decent judges of the service that they receive. I know that people disagree about it, but I think we can begin to admit that Arison was wrong about that as well. While some passengers are fair and impartial judges of the service they receive, it seems pretty clear that many, and perhaps most, are not. Many allow preconceived notions cloud their judgment. Many fail to factor in that they're paying less for more, as compared to the past, and so they end up judging more harshly than is fair the service they receive today - effectively allowing their rose-colored memories of the past corrupt their ability to apply reasonable discernment today.

 

Yes, the system is bad, mostly because passengers cannot be trusted with the responsibility of assessing the quality that they themselves receive. However, that does not mean passengers concerned about fairness to the staff should take any action as individual passengers other than abiding by the current system until/if it is replaced. We should pay the automatic gratuities as we're supposed to, complain about poor service to the customer service desk and get satisfaction that way. That's going to be best for the staff, overall, as compared to what is being suggested as an alternative.

 

In reality, the only constructive thing we passengers can do in response to the realization that the gratuities system doesn't work well is to not cruise, at all, in protest. That's a sacrifice I'm not willing to take for principle. Beyond that, while it is the only thing we can do to bring about a solution to the problem, it would only bring about that solution after a long period of time, only after many passengers agree to make that sacrifice, and only after many many staff members are harmed due to depression of the vitality of the industry that helps them feed their families.

 

The only winner in it is the owners of the company.
That's true of all businesses. Truly, any business for which that is not the case shouldn't be operating as a business. I think you're raising a red herring. Compare cruise lines to other investments; there aren't windfall profits being made. It's just a normal business like most others. You're ascribing nefarious aims when they simply don't exist.
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Well a few things: First, customers don't pay more than they should, this way. That's something people who don't like the system say, but there's nothing substantial behind those words.

 

US customers do as food and drink prices are relatively similar across the western world...US folk only think Europe is expensive because they sit in the tourist hotspots. I buy a glass of wine and a bowl of Carbonara in a small Bistro in my home city...it costs £15 as the service was what I expected I leave a £1.50 tip as 10% is commonplace here so I have paid £16.50.. In the US in a city I pay £15 for the same meal (dollars though of course) and I leave an 18% tip of £2.70 so I pay £17.70. If you eat out a lot as a large group that would add up.

Second, I once heard Micky Arison, who was CEO of Carnival for over thirty years, explain it. In a nutshell, it recognizes that the passenger is in the best position to assess the quality of service provided, and so every inch of distance between the passenger and the person assessing the quality of service a staff member provides, the more inaccurate the system.

 

Of course a business owner would say something like that to protect his profits....smoothly done Mr Arison.

In Europe and elsewhere we still assess the service and tip accordingly....but we don't feel forced to because we are worried about the waiter's finances.

 

One has to also believe that Arison was motivated by the belief that staff will work harder to please when they have that more direct reward. I think the changes in the industry, especially automatic gratuities, are evidence that Arison was wrong about that.

 

That leaves the question as to whether passengers are decent judges of the service that they receive. I know that people disagree about it, but I think we can begin to admit that Arison was wrong about that as well. While some passengers are fair and impartial judges of the service they receive, it seems pretty clear that many, and perhaps most, are not. Many allow preconceived notions cloud their judgment. Many fail to factor in that they're paying less for more, as compared to the past, and so they end up judging more harshly than is fair the service they receive today - effectively allowing their rose-colored memories of the past corrupt their ability to apply reasonable discernment today.

You could also say that is some customers are bad judges of service then this leaves tipped staff very vulnerable to angry guests/bad events that are out of their control. I always wonder what happens when a US dining venue is empty due to weather/tourism trouble or if a whole family block of cabins don't make the ship.

 

Yes, the system is bad, mostly because passengers cannot be trusted with the responsibility of assessing the quality that they themselves receive. However, that does not mean passengers concerned about fairness to the staff should take any action as individual passengers other than abiding by the current system until/if it is replaced. We should pay the automatic gratuities as we're supposed to, complain about poor service to the customer service desk and get satisfaction that way. That's going to be best for the staff, overall, as compared to what is being suggested as an alternative.

Oh I pay my grats alright as I respect the workers and I also fill in the comments cards to help further. But if a staff member does not provide well or the service is absent I will remove or adjust them.

 

In reality, the only constructive thing we passengers can do in response to the realization that the gratuities system doesn't work well is to not cruise, at all, in protest. That's a sacrifice I'm not willing to take for principle. Beyond that, while it is the only thing we can do to bring about a solution to the problem, it would only bring about that solution after a long period of time, only after many passengers agree to make that sacrifice, and only after many many staff members are harmed due to depression of the vitality of the industry that helps them feed their families.

 

That's true of all businesses. Truly, any business for which that is not the case shouldn't be operating as a business. I think you're raising a red herring. Compare cruise lines to other investments; there aren't windfall profits being made. It's just a normal business like most others. You're ascribing nefarious aims when they simply don't exist.

Cruise lines will have a healthy profit regardless of the tipping system but you cannot deny they rely on US cruisers traditional habits to make more. When their lines have been deployed in other regions or a cruise line has set up a new brand for outside the US cruising market they have often removed the grats and included it or made grats much smaller as they know they can't get away with it.

When non US cruisers discuss these matters we aren't trying to start an argument, we genuinely think you guys should stick it to the fat cats and pay less for your 'jollies'.

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Well it's clear that your viewpoint on autotips is, "the cruise line is skimming at least part of it instead of paying it out to crew members". If that were true then the crew would strike or quit. Given your posting history of being "fed up" with late pricing discounts and handling of air connections it would seem that cruising may not be for you. Why patronize a business if they are mistreating their customers? We have the power to vote with our wallets.

 

I agree that this tipping situation is way outmoded and needs to change. Many will state that the crew should just be paid a "decent wage" (how is that defined?) and everything should be rolled into the base fare. But the minute a cruise line does that they immediately look more expensive than their competitors. $799 plus gratuities will get the business and $900 gratuities included will not.

 

 

And this is ok. Customer needs to see final mandatory amount.

In some countries (Germany is one of them) there were lawsuits against cruise lines selling on that market and they were mandated to show final price to customers.

 

I’m all for tips included in base fare even though I never remove them anyway so for me it’s the same. But I don’t want to feel like an idiot subsidizing cruising for some smart people who are just removing them to save money.

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Sorry Velvetwater your comparison about eating out in US versus UK is not accurate in my experience. Traveled to UK for many years (born in UK and visit friends and family). I do not eat in touristy restaurants. Definitely have always spent more for meals in UK. I agree that my family has their favorite pubs, fish and chips, etc., but overall have found restaurants to be more expensive in UK. This is even true of American fast food and chain restaurants - much more expensive than US. I have also had an automatic gratuity, although more like 10-15%, added to my check.

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