rukkian Posted February 7, 2018 #26 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Trouble is, they're typically much more expensive :( That is the big reason they are going away on RCI, and probably most lines in that price point. There just is not near as much profit in them. They can do so much more due to economy of scale. If they have to highly discount the smaller ships, and they do not get the economy of scale, then the money is just not there for their target market. We really like the Jewel last year, but definitely wanted more options for our kids. If we go on another just my wife and I, it may change things a bit. Seems RCI is more geared towards families at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarpeCerevisi Posted February 7, 2018 #27 Share Posted February 7, 2018 There is another factor besides age in the decision to sell off the Vision class and older ships and that is the lack of balcony cabins. 20 years ago a balcony cabin was a luxury, now they are expected. Sent from my iPad using Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgregel Posted February 11, 2018 #28 Share Posted February 11, 2018 It is my understanding that only the smaller ships can sail out of Tampa. We are looking at possibly booking Rhapsody of the Seas out of Tampa. I haven't cruised anything smaller than Voyager class on RCCL. I'm thinking we might like this ship, even though it's older. My guess is this itinerary and ship has a more mature mix of passengers, which would appeal to me. I have to say, I love Freedom. Have cruised Freedom several times, but nothing larger. Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deliver42 Posted February 11, 2018 #29 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Even the new Icon Class is going to be 200,000 tons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rare BillOh Posted February 11, 2018 #30 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Freedom class is the perfect size. Anything larger and I’m not interested. Too crowded for me. Sent from my iPhone using Forums While the Freedom is my favorite, I find the Oasis class less crowded. (Except for the Windjammer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaPalms Posted February 11, 2018 #31 Share Posted February 11, 2018 It is my understanding that only the smaller ships can sail out of Tampa. We are looking at possibly booking Rhapsody of the Seas out of Tampa. I haven't cruised anything smaller than Voyager class on RCCL. I'm thinking we might like this ship, even though it's older. My guess is this itinerary and ship has a more mature mix of passengers, which would appeal to me. I have to say, I love Freedom. Have cruised Freedom several times, but nothing larger.Sandy The Skyway Bridge prevents the bigger ships from sailing out of Tampa. I just sailed on the Brilliance for the first time. The sea views and intimacy of this ship made up for much of the bells and whistles that it lacked. Having previously sailed on Voyager, Freedom and Oasis classes, I missed the ice skating show and definitely prefer their Royal Promenade over the Centrum. I didn’t miss sailing with over 1200 children :eek: - there were only 61 kids on this cruise. While this Brilliance cruise had a more mature mix of passengers, it wasn’t just a bunch of old seniors like me.;p Lots of young professionals and couples taking a vacation from their kids rounded out the mix. It all made for a very relaxing and enjoyable cruise. ~ Judy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgregel Posted February 11, 2018 #32 Share Posted February 11, 2018 The Skyway Bridge prevents the bigger ships from sailing out of Tampa. I just sailed on the Brilliance for the first time. The sea views and intimacy of this ship made up for much of the bells and whistles that it lacked. Having previously sailed on Voyager, Freedom and Oasis classes, I missed the ice skating show and definitely prefer their Royal Promenade over the Centrum. I didn’t miss sailing with over 1200 children :eek: - there were only 61 kids on this cruise. While this Brilliance cruise had a more mature mix of passengers, it wasn’t just a bunch of old seniors like me.;p Lots of young professionals and couples taking a vacation from their kids rounded out the mix. It all made for a very relaxing and enjoyable cruise. ~ Judy Sounds like something we would enjoy. Sandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 11, 2018 #33 Share Posted February 11, 2018 There was a great thread on this topic over a year ago. The jist of the thread is that Sovereign/Monarch/Splendour/Legend were sold at approx the 22-25yr mark. I have no clue how any cruise line factors in capital cost depreciation, nor major renovations like bringing back Empress and Majesty, however I'll assume just for fun that 25yrs is a milestone year: Past due?: Empress built 1989 = 29 years old Majesty built 1992 = 26 years old Still a few short years left (unless sold for value before it's "expiry date"): Grandeur 1996 = 22 years Enchantment & Rhapsody 1997 = 21 years Vision 1998 = 20 years Radiance Class will be hanging around for quite a while yet.... Jewel is only 14 years young :) Since the cruise lines pay very little corporate tax, capital depreciation is probably not a strong factor. However, at the 15 year mark, the requirements for class society surveys changes. You can no longer drydock every 5 years, with an underwater survey midway, but must now drydock twice in 5 years (hence more cost). Also, the requirements for checking steel thickness of hull plating and framing become much stiffer, with attendant cost to test, and the start of required steel replacement. Ship maintenance costs are parabolic over time, and the 15 year mark is the "corner" where they start to climb rapidly. However, if the revenue can be generated to cover the increased cost, the older ships will be retained. If Cuba cruises go away, or if they become more mainstream with better port infrastructure, then I would expect Empress to go away, and Majesty too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merion_Mom Posted February 13, 2018 #34 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Since the cruise lines pay very little corporate tax, capital depreciation is probably not a strong factor. However, at the 15 year mark, the requirements for class society surveys changes. You can no longer drydock every 5 years, with an underwater survey midway, but must now drydock twice in 5 years (hence more cost). Also, the requirements for checking steel thickness of hull plating and framing become much stiffer, with attendant cost to test, and the start of required steel replacement. Ship maintenance costs are parabolic over time, and the 15 year mark is the "corner" where they start to climb rapidly. However, if the revenue can be generated to cover the increased cost, the older ships will be retained. If Cuba cruises go away, or if they become more mainstream with better port infrastructure, then I would expect Empress to go away, and Majesty too. Truly fascinating. I love this stuff. Thank you, Chief. Sent from my iPhone using Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accio_7 Posted February 13, 2018 #35 Share Posted February 13, 2018 As context, all Vision and Radiance class ships are below 100K GT. I have only been on three cruises and all three ships (Sovereign of the Seas, Disney Wonder, Disney Magic) have been in the 73 to 83 K GT range. So, even Radiance class ships are a step up for me LOL. My next two cruises are on Adventure and Harmony, go big or go home :') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drrich2 Posted February 13, 2018 #36 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Ship maintenance costs are parabolic over time, and the 15 year mark is the "corner" where they start to climb rapidly. However, if the revenue can be generated to cover the increased cost, the older ships will be retained. If Cuba cruises go away, or if they become more mainstream with better port infrastructure, then I would expect Empress to go away, and Majesty too. Interesting stuff! Any thoughts on who buys these old, expensive to maintain ships, and how they make the profit after cost hurdle work for them? Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarea Posted February 13, 2018 #37 Share Posted February 13, 2018 .. Ship maintenance costs are parabolic over time ... . I think you meant exponential.;p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molsonschooner Posted February 13, 2018 #38 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Truly fascinating. I love this stuff. Thank you, Chief. Sent from my iPhone using Forums I love this type of information as well. The Chief has so much knowledge and he explains things in a way that non engineers can understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 13, 2018 #39 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I think you meant exponential.;p Thanks, Bob. Yes, exponential relationships generate a parabolic curve in graphical form. I was still recovering from an all nighter taking the ship down from Philly to the sea. Getting a bit old for this. Smaller lines like Marella and Pullmantur are some of the typical lines that buy older ships. They operate on a much narrower profit margin than the mainstream lines, absorbing some of the cost in this way. They may also tend to place the ships in different countries of registry (flag state), choosing ones that allow some of the "less stringent" class societies to underwrite the ship. These registries and class societies charge less for their services, and will tolerate more degradation in maintenance standards than the other countries or societies, saving money on operating (maintenance) costs. They will also tend to join less "top tier" P&I insurance clubs (P&I insurance is liability insurance for virtually all risks associated with ship operation). These P&I "clubs" are mutual insurance groups of shipowners. Each group chooses their own membership, based on the past record of insurance claims the shipping line has had. Lines with fewer claims get into the "better clubs", and since the risk is shared between the members, a group that has a better claim record will pay less in premiums. Some lines work on different business models, either by going "all inclusive" or knowing their target demographic's taste in service and amenities, and can tailor crew size and food and beverage budgets to match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarea Posted February 13, 2018 #40 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Thanks, Bob. Yes, exponential relationships generate a parabolic curve in graphical form. I was still recovering from an all nighter taking the ship down from Philly to the sea. Getting a bit old for this. Smaller lines like Marella and Pullmantur are some of the typical lines that buy older ships. They operate on a much narrower profit margin than the mainstream lines, absorbing some of the cost in this way. They may also tend to place the ships in different countries of registry (flag state), choosing ones that allow some of the "less stringent" class societies to underwrite the ship. These registries and class societies charge less for their services, and will tolerate more degradation in maintenance standards than the other countries or societies, saving money on operating (maintenance) costs. They will also tend to join less "top tier" P&I insurance clubs (P&I insurance is liability insurance for virtually all risks associated with ship operation). These P&I "clubs" are mutual insurance groups of shipowners. Each group chooses their own membership, based on the past record of insurance claims the shipping line has had. Lines with fewer claims get into the "better clubs", and since the risk is shared between the members, a group that has a better claim record will pay less in premiums. Some lines work on different business models, either by going "all inclusive" or knowing their target demographic's taste in service and amenities, and can tailor crew size and food and beverage budgets to match. This info brings to mind when Royal brought back Empress from Pulmantur, and had to spend much more money than they expected to make her able to cruise out of the US again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BNBR Posted February 13, 2018 #41 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Freedom class is the perfect size. Anything larger and I’m not interested. Too crowded for me. Sent from my iPhone using Forums Oasis of the Seas has more space per passenger than Freedom.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saab4444 Posted February 13, 2018 #42 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Thanks, Bob. Yes, exponential relationships generate a parabolic curve in graphical form. I was still recovering from an all nighter taking the ship down from Philly to the sea. Getting a bit old for this. Smaller lines like Marella and Pullmantur are some of the typical lines that buy older ships. They operate on a much narrower profit margin than the mainstream lines, absorbing some of the cost in this way. They may also tend to place the ships in different countries of registry (flag state), choosing ones that allow some of the "less stringent" class societies to underwrite the ship. These registries and class societies charge less for their services, and will tolerate more degradation in maintenance standards than the other countries or societies, saving money on operating (maintenance) costs. They will also tend to join less "top tier" P&I insurance clubs (P&I insurance is liability insurance for virtually all risks associated with ship operation). These P&I "clubs" are mutual insurance groups of shipowners. Each group chooses their own membership, based on the past record of insurance claims the shipping line has had. Lines with fewer claims get into the "better clubs", and since the risk is shared between the members, a group that has a better claim record will pay less in premiums. Some lines work on different business models, either by going "all inclusive" or knowing their target demographic's taste in service and amenities, and can tailor crew size and food and beverage budgets to match. Well, there are also some cruise lines who operate older ships on a high level. Look e.g. at Europa from Hapag-Lloyd who was built in 1999 or Artania from Phoenix who was built in 1984. Both go to to dry dock at least every two years, they look better than any old Royal ship from outside and inside and offer a four or even five star cruise experience at a high rate. They are not running on a cheaper flag or insurance plan or with less crew. In fact it is the opposite, they sail full and make a good profit. I hope a cruise line like this will buy ships like Radiance class when it is time! Sent from my iPhone using Forums Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 13, 2018 #43 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Well, there are also some cruise lines who operate older ships on a high level. Look e.g. at Europa from Hapag-Lloyd who was built in 1999 or Artania from Phoenix who was built in 1984. Both go to to dry dock at least every two years, they look better than any old Royal ship from outside and inside and offer a four or even five star cruise experience at a high rate. They are not running on a cheaper flag or insurance plan or with less crew. In fact it is the opposite, they sail full and make a good profit. I hope a cruise line like this will buy ships like Radiance class when it is time! Sent from my iPhone using Forums Yes, this is the other direction that I mentioned in another thread about older, smaller ships, that I apparently didn't bring over here. They can also go upscale in pricing. Both of these ships and lines you mention are, from what I see, definitely upscale in pricing, not mainstream. Saying the ships go into drydock every two years means nothing, since every ship over the age of 15 must do this. No class society would give a certificate of class for anything less. I have no idea what P&I club that either of these two lines belong to, and I suspect you don't either, but are simply guessing. They could be in a good club or not, since they are charging upscale fares, this could cover insurance premiums. And in the case of Hapag-Lloyd, the cruise ships are likely covered in the same club as the cargo ships, so spreading the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 13, 2018 #44 Share Posted February 13, 2018 This info brings to mind when Royal brought back Empress from Pulmantur, and had to spend much more money than they expected to make her able to cruise out of the US again. Yeah, this was a case of the maintenance folks not knowing or caring about the USPH regulations, since the ship didn't call in US ports while under Pullmantur. So, they replaced equipment with perfectly good equipment, that just didn't meet USPH requirements like not having slotted or Phillips screws on the outside (hard to clean), which makes the equipment less expensive than that which is specifically designed for USPH applications. Also, the piping and such behind the stainless steel bulkheads and overheads in the galley areas need repair on older ships, and it is real easy to cut a hole, fix the problem, and then add an access door. However, the placement of these doors, and their design (in regards to sealing and ease of cleaning) is regulated by USPH, so RCI found itself in the situation where it was easier to rip out all the bulkheads and overheads and start over, rather than try to TIG weld in patches. I believe there was also indications of vermin behind the bulkheads, so this was another reason to rip everything out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 13, 2018 #45 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Oasis of the Seas has more space per passenger than Freedom.... Passenger space ratios should be looked at as "gross approximations" at the best. The ratio is derived by dividing the gross tonnage by the passengers. However, gross tonnage includes things like fuel and water tanks, engine rooms, crew quarters and galley/laundry and other behind the scene volumes. Also, areas like the Oasis class open central promenade are not part of gross tonnage calculations. A much more realistic measure of passenger space would be to take net tonnage (that space allocated to cargo (passengers)) and divide by the number of passengers. The problem, of course, is that the sites that calculate passenger space ratios are not privy to net tonnage figures, so they use what they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rukkian Posted February 13, 2018 #46 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Passenger space ratios should be looked at as "gross approximations" at the best. The ratio is derived by dividing the gross tonnage by the passengers. However, gross tonnage includes things like fuel and water tanks, engine rooms, crew quarters and galley/laundry and other behind the scene volumes. Also, areas like the Oasis class open central promenade are not part of gross tonnage calculations. A much more realistic measure of passenger space would be to take net tonnage (that space allocated to cargo (passengers)) and divide by the number of passengers. The problem, of course, is that the sites that calculate passenger space ratios are not privy to net tonnage figures, so they use what they can. Are you saying you have the net tonnage numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 13, 2018 #47 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Are you saying you have the net tonnage numbers? No, I'm not. I'm saying that using gross tonnage figures can skew the ratios, but that since they are the only really publicly posted figures for ships, that is what sites use. I'm saying that if they could ask the cruise lines for the net tonnage figures (and it really isn't that classified, it can be obtained with a bit of research from class society databases) and use those for more realistic ratios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmazedByCruising Posted February 13, 2018 #48 Share Posted February 13, 2018 (edited) No, I'm not. I'm saying that using gross tonnage figures can skew the ratios, but that since they are the only really publicly posted figures for ships, that is what sites use. I'm saying that if they could ask the cruise lines for the net tonnage figures (and it really isn't that classified, it can be obtained with a bit of research from class society databases) and use those for more realistic ratios. Why would you use a 3D metric when the everyday metric for spaciousness is sqft? Sqft/pax is not classified as deck plans are not a secret at all. It just wouldn't account for that huge atrium. And some other problems, as whether hallways should count as "public space". But it should be better than acting as if pax are stored like sugar :) Edited February 13, 2018 by AmazedByCruising elaborate a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chengkp75 Posted February 13, 2018 #49 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Why would you use a 3D metric when the everyday metric for spaciousness is sqft? Sqft/pax is not classified as deck plans are not a secret at all. It just wouldn't account for that huge atrium. And some other problems, as whether hallways should count as "public space". But it should be better than acting as if pax are stored like sugar :) Why would hallways not count as "public space", the cabins are, and they are not public. Passenger space ratio is not based on "public" space, but on total passenger space. Funny, spacious is defined as both "having a large area" or "having a large space" (and space can mean a volume). In the context of houses and offices, where ceiling heights are relatively constant, defining "spaciousness" by square footage can be meaningful. But when you come to something like two theaters of the same square footage, the one with the higher ceiling (more volume) will feel more spacious than one with a lower ceiling. And just to give an oddity of the use of tonnage figures, which were created for cargo vessels, and only "adapted" for passenger vessels, in the way that they treat "space" for cargo (passengers). Freedom of the Seas: 154,407 GT 127,545 NT (net tons) Oasis of the Seas: 225,282 GT 242,999 NT Note that Freedom has a lower net tonnage than gross tonnage, since this reflects the total enclosed volume, minus the non-cargo volume (crew spaces and tankage), as is normal. Oasis has a larger net tonnage than her gross tonnage! How is that possible? Since the Central Park area (open space) is bounded by "cargo" space on each side (the cabins), it is considered to be "available" cargo volume. Another factor to remember when dealing with both GT and NT, these are not direct measurements of the ship's volume. They are "unitless" numbers that take those volumes and applies a multiplier factor based on naval architecture principles. These factors make the relationship between actual volume and tonnage no longer straight line, with the variance between volume and tonnage getting larger the higher the tonnage gets. So, Oasis has more GT or NT per unit of volume than Freedom does, for the same unit of volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merion_Mom Posted February 13, 2018 #50 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Yeah, this was a case of the maintenance folks not knowing or caring about the USPH regulations, since the ship didn't call in US ports while under Pullmantur. So, they replaced equipment with perfectly good equipment, that just didn't meet USPH requirements like not having slotted or Phillips screws on the outside (hard to clean), which makes the equipment less expensive than that which is specifically designed for USPH applications. Also, the piping and such behind the stainless steel bulkheads and overheads in the galley areas need repair on older ships, and it is real easy to cut a hole, fix the problem, and then add an access door. However, the placement of these doors, and their design (in regards to sealing and ease of cleaning) is regulated by USPH, so RCI found itself in the situation where it was easier to rip out all the bulkheads and overheads and start over, rather than try to TIG weld in patches. I believe there was also indications of vermin behind the bulkheads, so this was another reason to rip everything out. I believe so. ;) :D :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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