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Rhine water levels 2018 and similar topics


notamermaid
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Notamermaid, thank you for the timely updates. You have been a lifeline for those of us embarking a Rhine River journey

 

Histiomom, lucky you to be going to Strasbourg. Do take the time to view the famous clock , and by all means take time to walk around that gorgeous city. Food in Strasbourg is outstanding as many cultures combine for tasty treats.The onion tarte is not to be missed.

 

Any reports on Crystal river out there?

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Very interesting. So the shallowest part of the river is between 508 and 557? And the current depth on that stretch is 1,90m?

 

Hello Captiveguru,

 

you are right about the shallowest part. The depth in that area is currently 1.83m. Why and how it is calculated I am happy to explain tomorrow.

 

Histiomom,

Thank you very much for your update. And have a great time in Strasbourg.

 

notamermaid

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Notamermaid, wonderful to have you teaching everyone. According to various specs, Viking Longships have a draft of at least 190. I've also seen 195 and 200, but never anything less than 190. Can you explain why Viking would built river boats with a draft that exceeds the typical depth north of Mainz?

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Notamermaid, wonderful to have you teaching everyone. According to various specs, Viking Longships have a draft of at least 190. I've also seen 195 and 200, but never anything less than 190. Can you explain why Viking would built river boats with a draft that exceeds the typical depth north of Mainz?

 

Hello austinetc,

That is a good question. The short answer is: they don't. Somewhere along the line the 190 for the ships has been established over the years in conversation but there is a flaw in that somewhere.

 

I shall be back with a longer explanation.

 

notamermaid

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Hello Captiveguru,

 

you are right about the shallowest part. The depth in that area is currently 1.83m. Why and how it is calculated I am happy to explain tomorrow.

 

Looking forward to that. I am glad we are booked on the AmaStella next week, which appears to have a draft of 1.60m. Still cutting it close...

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It looks like the Scenic Jewel didn't make it all the way upstream to Basel. It was supposed to be in Basel on the 13th but was still in Strasbourg/Kehl (according to anyoverip.de/scenic). The farthest upstream it made it was to Breisach, and it appears to be back on schedule now.

 

I can't imagine there's low water on the stretch between Breisach and Basel. Does anyone know any other reason why they wouldn't have made it all the way? Broken lock perhaps? Just curious.

 

Thanks,

Sterling

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sbjornda,

 

 

the navigation channel is indeed deep enough between Basel and Breisach. However, increased traffic on the river itself, I mean more barges to carry the cargo due to the reduced capacity in low water situations, can lead to waiting at the locks. The navigation channel is also not the widest around there (it is actually a canal) which could lead to waiting when overtaking, etc. A bit like busy roads really. I am not familiar with the regulations in the canal...

 

 

 

The Scenic Jewel might just have problems sticking to the schedule as she has to sail more slowly through the affected stretches.

 

 

Or there is a minor reason around Basel or in its harbour... No definite answer possible of course, one would need to talk to Scenic in the end.

 

 

notamermaid

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It looks like the Scenic Jewel didn't make it all the way upstream to Basel. It was supposed to be in Basel on the 13th but was still in Strasbourg/Kehl (according to anyoverip.de/scenic). The farthest upstream it made it was to Breisach, and it appears to be back on schedule now.

 

 

 

I can't imagine there's low water on the stretch between Breisach and Basel. Does anyone know any other reason why they wouldn't have made it all the way? Broken lock perhaps? Just curious.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

Sterling

 

 

 

This might just be a system glitch. I have bee tracking the Jewel using vesselfinder and for the last couple of days the position has not been updating. This is not an uncommon situation when tracking river cruise ships, maybe because terrain blocks signals.

 

I wish more Scenic cruisers were also CC posters so we could get some real-time updates from onboard.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

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I have been tracking Emerald Waterways Sun on cruisemapper out of curiosity even though we are not cruising on it until the end of August next year. It’s supposed to be on the Rhine between Koblenz and Mannheim right now according to its schedule but it seems to be docked near Linz which I thought was on the Danube. Any Emerald cruisers out there?

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This might just be a system glitch. I have bee tracking the Jewel using vesselfinder and for the last couple of days the position has not been updating. This is not an uncommon situation when tracking river cruise ships, maybe because terrain blocks signals.

 

I wish more Scenic cruisers were also CC posters so we could get some real-time updates from onboard.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

 

 

We are currently docked in Kehl just across the river from Strasbourg. (On Viking). The Scenic Jewel cruised by us headed downstream about 5 hours ago.

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Currently on the Viking Mimir; Left Budapest (actually, Komarno, Slovakia; our ship — already an alternate — couldn’t make it downriver on the Danube to Budapest) on 8/3; bus transfer from Passau to Nuremberg roughly a week ago due to low water; now docked in Cologne.

 

We just learned we won’t be able to sail to Amsterdam tomorrow. It was very slow down the Rhine from Mainz (where we entered the Rhine) to Koblenz. The conning officers were huddled on the bridge during that stretch, evaluating conditions. We were told we couldn’t dock downtown, due to water levels, so we’re deep in some industrial basin further downriver. While we were in town, the decision was made to terminate at Cologne. So buses to and hotels in Amsterdam.

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continued from post #221...

 

 

here is a further explanation of this file: http://www.wsd-west.wsv.de/wasserstrassen/dateien/2011/Rhein_Fahrinnentiefe_und-breite2011_2.pdf I have mentioned the figure of 1,90m with the shallowest depth of the navigation channel. It is actually the shallowest part of the whole navigable river between Basel and Rotterdam.

 

 

You can see the other figures in the stretches separated by lines. On both sides of the shallow part in the Rhine gorge there are depths of 2.10m. A mere difference of 20 centimetres that depending on the intensity of drought can quickly be not enough to keep those stretches navigable. See the problems we have now. We have of course heard that many ships make it through there as well, but it can be a gamble not knowing more than two to three days in advance what it will be like, especially on a tight schedule. Just a note: German puts a decimal comma where English puts a decimal point.

 

 

At the bottom right the red line is repeated with the words "Vertiefung durch Ausbau". It means that it has been considered to deepen the navigation channel there. It all costs a lot of money, so there is no definite date yet...

 

 

The red figures give you the width of the navigation channel.

 

The depth of the navigation channel needs a reference figure and that is what is shown as the Glw line along the page. This Glw figure is a complicated calculation, but essentially means that at that level the depth of the navigation is desired/guaranteed to be 1.90m or 2.10m and so on. The Glw changes over the course of the length of the river.

 

Now let us put this into practice: get the current water level, see what the Glw is in relation to the depth of the navigation channel at that gauge. Then know how deep your ship currently sits in the water and you will find out if you can sail that stretch or not. Voila!

 

O.k., not quite. One thing we have forgotten in the equation - the safety margin. It is the proverbial German of "always having a hand's breadth of water under the keel".

 

Now please get your maths brain cells into gear. Here is the relevant page from the site platform zero incidents: http://www.platformzeroincidents.nl/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Calculation-navigational-depth-R01.pdf It is mainly intended for barge shipping but works for our purposes as well.

 

 

Let us focus on the calculation example for Kaub and repeat it for the current status: 1.90 - 78 = 112, 112 + 74 = 186! This is your "basic" depth. Then we need to find out from maritime sources (websites, etc) if there are currently shallows like sandbanks, etc. Let us assume there are none = 0 Great, we still have our 186. If we needed to dock we would have to bear in mind shallows there as well. Let us assume we do not need to dock. Still 186. We need to deduct the safety margin now, 30cm for barges, another source says up to 50cm for some barges. River cruise ships might differ but let us stick with 30: 186 - 30 = 156cm!

 

Uff, I am worn out not being a maths person. ;)

 

to be continued...

 

notamermaid

 

disclaimer: this is a calculation done merely for the purposes of information for a layman and does not mean you can navigate on the river based solely on the example given here

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This might just be a system glitch. I have bee tracking the Jewel using vesselfinder and for the last couple of days the position has not been updating. This is not an uncommon situation when tracking river cruise ships, maybe because terrain blocks signals.

 

I wish more Scenic cruisers were also CC posters so we could get some real-time updates from onboard.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

jeb_bud,

 

that is the one thing I did not think of! marinetraffic also has that stretch often badly covered so lack of updating is common in that area apparently. Thank you for the reminder.

 

notamermaid

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I've finally found an original specification for Viking longships that says 1.60 cm draft. I'm now assuming that the "1.90" that I've been seeing is a reference to their navigable depth, taking into account your comment about a "hands breadth" safety margin. Would this be correct? I wonder also; are there regulated "passing zones" in the Rhine, or is it at the captains' discretion? I'm reading a lot about traffic delays. (Our Amsterdam to Budapest cruise isn't until late October, when I'm expecting that most of this low water trouble will be over with. Or am I being overly optimistic?)

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thp

 

I’ll certainly try to keep you posted once onboard.

 

 

dhl1959

 

Yes. It certainly has been challenging to find any info on Scenic. Feel free to ask any questions on my return and hopefully I’ll be able to answer.

 

notamermaid

 

Thanks so much for your input which has been invaluable.

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Have just returned from a Scenic cruise from Budapest to Amsterdam. We were meant to be on the Scenic Ruby but this was changed to the Scenic Pearl. We weren't told why but are presuming Ruby was either stuck in a low level of river or there was a mechanical problem. If anyone has further information we would appreciate it. We left Budapest on 31 July and made it to just South of Passau where we were informed that we couldn't get any further. We spent 5 days/4 nights on buses and in motels before joining the Scenic Jade in Andernach for our final 3 nights to Amsterdam.

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We are currently docked in Kehl just across the river from Strasbourg. (On Viking). The Scenic Jewel cruised by us headed downstream about 5 hours ago.

 

I was trying to track the Viking Mimir approaching Nuremberg from Amsterdam as we we approaching Passau from Budapest for a bus transfer. I noticed the tracker wasn’t always ‘real-time,’ that the data could be 24 hours old.

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I've finally found an original specification for Viking longships that says 1.60 cm draft. I'm now assuming that the "1.90" that I've been seeing is a reference to their navigable depth, taking into account your comment about a "hands breadth" safety margin. Would this be correct? I wonder also; are there regulated "passing zones" in the Rhine, or is it at the captains' discretion? I'm reading a lot about traffic delays. (Our Amsterdam to Budapest cruise isn't until late October, when I'm expecting that most of this low water trouble will be over with. Or am I being overly optimistic?)

 

I am postponing the next lesson :D and will go straight to trying to answer your questions. First, draft of Viking ships: the figure 1.90m has been around for so long in discussions that I cannot remember how it came about. sbbeachguy told us on 8 August their ship the Viking Mani has a draft of 1.53m. That is the lowest I have read for Viking. The Neptun shipyard where all the longships are built gives the draft as 1.60m. By the way, they also build the ships for Arosa Flussreisen and give their draft as being 1.60m as well. I have read 1.90 and even 2.00m, which might suggest that you are right in thinking that the safety margin was calculated into this. But I cannot say if that is correct and why one would calculate it thus. I think it would more confuse than help. There have been many figures thrown around for drafts which in my opinion has something to do with differences according to "empty ship", "average draft" and "ship with full drinking water tanks". In 2015 one poster started a thread about why some ships sail and others do not and chengkp75 taught us (including me as you will read) much about draft and what affects it: https://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=48304873&highlight=passengers#post48304873

 

Your second question: as regards actual traffic regulations on the river I am quite lost. What I do know is that on some stretches overtaking is allowed while at some danger spots (also when the navigation channel is too narrow of course) this is prohibited. Passing is done with the help of communication and signals, is usually straightforward but can sometimes require coordinating (as explained to me by the captain on my river cruise ship). The Rhine has very dangerous bends where until a few decades ago you were only allowed to sail with the help of a qualified pilot. Yes, you probably guessed it, it is in the castle stretch. It is still dangerous round there and the radio signal is very sketchy so the traffic is regulated by "traffic lights"! They look like this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinschifffahrt#/media/File:Bankeck-EBV.JPG

 

Your third question: as I have mentioned we have had an exceptionally dry year and the low water level will stay with us for a while from what it looks like at the moment, yet an actual prediction in figures is not possible. The maximum forecast/prediction experts give is seven days. To clarify "low water": In Kaub for example we currently have official low water status (86cm and lower, which is a statistical value averaged over ten years) but a rise above that figure - let's say 20cm - is still low. It affects barges but has hardly any negative affect on river cruising.

 

 

Edit: forgot the figures: Maxau 364cm, Kaub 71cm, Koblenz 72cm.

 

notamermaid

Edited by notamermaid
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notamermaid: Your insights are excellent and entertaining. Regarding future water levels: While I fully realize that predicting levels two months in advance border on the ridiculous, they also shouldn't be ignored out of hand. "Record heat", "record low water" aren't usually thrown around casually. Justification for my personal concern is that for this trip I chose a two-room suite. (An attempt to connive my wife into finally retiring!) Two-room suites don't translate well into bus seats. I think a call to Viking is in my future.

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notamermaid: Your insights are excellent and entertaining. Regarding future water levels: While I fully realize that predicting levels two months in advance border on the ridiculous, they also shouldn't be ignored out of hand. "Record heat", "record low water" aren't usually thrown around casually. Justification for my personal concern is that for this trip I chose a two-room suite. (An attempt to connive my wife into finally retiring!) Two-room suites don't translate well into bus seats. I think a call to Viking is in my future.

 

I understand your concern. You are right, especially "record low water" is not a term uttered quickly or lightly, us being used to low water scenarios. Do keep Viking on their toes about informing you well (and as much in advance as possible)!

 

I hope all goes well and you will be able to enjoy the suite - and the food - and the landscape. :)

 

notamermaid

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TAshiChino, did Scenic offer any compensation for riding 5 days on a bus instead of cruising? What types of motels were used? THanks. We leave next month for the Amsterdam to Budapest route and now having some concerns how we will be treated if low water conditions continue.

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notamermaid: Your insights are excellent and entertaining. Regarding future water levels: While I fully realize that predicting levels two months in advance border on the ridiculous, they also shouldn't be ignored out of hand. "Record heat", "record low water" aren't usually thrown around casually. Justification for my personal concern is that for this trip I chose a two-room suite. (An attempt to connive my wife into finally retiring!) Two-room suites don't translate well into bus seats. I think a call to Viking is in my future.

 

I feel your pain! We have a Basel to Amsterdam on August 25th, and I'm not keen on a bus trip on any part of it. We have Viking insurance purchased at booking, so I'm presuming our "Cancel for any reason" provision applies if we elect to cancel, in which case the full cost (except insurance) would be refunded in the form of vouchers, including air since we booked through Viking.

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TAshiChino, did Scenic offer any compensation for riding 5 days on a bus instead of cruising? What types of motels were used? THanks. We leave next month for the Amsterdam to Budapest route and now having some concerns how we will be treated if low water conditions continue.

 

No. No compensation has been offered yet. They do however have their cruise guarantee policy which is an insurance policy which pays a set amount per day of interruption for continuing on a bus, or staying on the moored boat with meals but no planned excursions, or a set amount for leaving the cruise early. Neither option provides full compensation for the interruption and there was no option for negotiation prior to deciding which way we were going to go. Our cruise was given 2 hours notification to decide whether to stay on the stationary boat, continue by bus or leave the cruise.

 

We, along with many guests were very disappointed in the conditions off the boat. Hoping that the feedback we, and others, are giving to Scenic will improve the experience for others in the future.

 

Hopefully the season will turn and there will be water in the river for your trip...if not, insist on frank answers to your questions.

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TashiChino I hope you won't mind posting the compensation once Scenic lets you know.

 

We are booked for next year and I have read the River Cruise Guarantee. It obviously has different compensation levels depending on deck and cabin choice. I can't work out whether the amounts referred to in the guarantee are per cabin or per person. Hopefully per person, or everyone would still be very out of pocket.

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