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New Flyer, is PE worth it for long-haul?


Jasalth
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Flying internationally on flights exceeding 7 hrs on a single plane demand no less than biz class.

 

With apologies to Vince Lombardi, flying in PE "is like kissing your sister."

 

That said, OP should familiarize herself with ITA Matrix on the web and do some comparisons of coach and biz class. There are some occasional bargains.

 

 

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Flying internationally on flights exceeding 7 hrs on a single plane demand no less than biz class.

 

With apologies to Vince Lombardi, flying in PE "is like kissing your sister."

 

That said, OP should familiarize herself with ITA Matrix on the web and do some comparisons of coach and biz class. There are some occasional bargains.

 

 

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I would agree, apart from the fact that a 10 hour flight in biz can cost as much as a 7 day resort stay. Unfortunately some of us economically challenged mortals have to make compromises.

 

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"Worth it" is a totally personal, subjective decision only you can make. We don't think it is, so we pay to fly Business or First

 

Same.

 

A lot of people seem to work from the bottom up when looking at airline prices. Start at economy and just go from there. Why not start at the top and work downwards, particularly if money isn't an issue.

 

I fly almost 100% FC domestically within the US and business or first class internationally. Instead of looking at the headline price look at the difference in price between cabins and what that gets you. For example, last year I flew AA Business Class JFK-LHR-JFK for about $2600 return....but then Economy on the same flights was only $800 less than that. Broken down it's only $50/hr difference in price before you take into account any ground benefits (my frequent flyer status gets me First Class ground benefits on AA and other airlines).

 

There are other smart ways to bring down the price. My primary carrier is BA and their Visa card gives you 10% off the entire fare for a $95 annual fee and you can save another $200pp by signing up for AARP (no age restrictions). BA's international business class isn't nearly as world beating as it once was but it's heaps better than any premium economy product out there.

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Flying internationally on flights exceeding 7 hrs on a single plane demand no less than biz class.
If you have unlimited resources.

 

If I have to go to Australia three times in a year, paying for it out of my own pocket, I think that I would rather not risk bankruptcy by adopting this as a rule.

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If you have unlimited resources.

 

 

 

If I have to go to Australia three times in a year, paying for it out of my own pocket, I think that I would rather not risk bankruptcy by adopting this as a rule.

 

 

Your circumstances may dictate that you can't do biz class. That doesn't change the fact that anything less than that class of service on the long hauls is uncomfortable for many travelers - so much so that they will spend more money and/or FF points.

 

 

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Your circumstances may dictate that you can't do biz class. That doesn't change the fact that anything less than that class of service on the long hauls is uncomfortable for many travelers - so much so that they will spend more money and/or FF points.

 

 

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I think you are stating the obvious. We all want to travel in comfort, but circumstances sometimes dictate that we just have to "grin and bear it."

 

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I think you are stating the obvious. We all want to travel in comfort, but circumstances sometimes dictate that we just have to "grin and bear it."

 

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One of the reasons we choose to cruise with Oceania is the air credit for DIY. Those savings added to a FF points/cash combo, date flexibility and some extensive price research often find us affordable biz class.

 

 

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One of the reasons we choose to cruise with Oceania is the air credit for DIY. Those savings added to a FF points/cash combo, date flexibility and some extensive price research often find us affordable biz class.

 

Remember that air credits don't just miraculously appear out of thin air. Somehow, Oceania (and other lines) need to have a revenue source that covers that outgoing cash flow.

 

You've paid for those air tickets (including the credits) one way or another.

 

TANSTAAFL

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Remember that air credits don't just miraculously appear out of thin air. Somehow, Oceania (and other lines) need to have a revenue source that covers that outgoing cash flow.

 

 

 

You've paid for those air tickets (including the credits) one way or another.

 

 

 

TANSTAAFL

 

Gee- I had never thought of it in that way [emoji6]

 

 

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Posted not so much for you, but for those who just look at some numbers and don't do the deep dive.

 

 

 

Just "yankin' your chain."

Nonetheless, the fare is the fare on Oceania. They do now have a stripped down "cruise only" cabin price (w/o air and other O Life perks). But, for us, the "O Life" price includes good value related to our choices on the ship. So, we're "stuck" with the air or air credit. And we've always taken the credit in order to DIY with added pre/post cruise land stays and best use of our FF points.

 

 

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That doesn't change the fact that anything less than that class of service on the long hauls is uncomfortable for many travelers - so much so that they will spend more money and/or FF points.
That's true, and I like doing it in business class - or first class, even, when I can - if I can organise it.

 

But that, at least, is more realistic than smugly saying:-

 

Flying internationally on flights exceeding 7 hrs on a single plane demand no less than biz class.

 

With apologies to Vince Lombardi, flying in PE "is like kissing your sister."

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I considered Air France Premium Economy for our flight to Europe last summer, but DH actually preferred Economy. He likes being able to put up the armrests, which you can’t do in Premium Economy. I really checked the Premium Economy section as we were deplaning, and honestly, I’m glad we didn’t upgrade to it. It hardly had more space than what we had.

 

 

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I really checked the Premium Economy section as we were deplaning, and honestly, I’m glad we didn’t upgrade to it. It hardly had more space than what we had.
You didn't sit in it for 14 hours, did you? I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't have said that if you had.
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I considered Air France Premium Economy for our flight to Europe last summer, but DH actually preferred Economy. He likes being able to put up the armrests, which you can’t do in Premium Economy. I really checked the Premium Economy section as we were deplaning, and honestly, I’m glad we didn’t upgrade to it. It hardly had more space than what we had.

 

 

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You don't mention which aircraft you flew on, but for me, the extra legroom would more than make up for the benefit [?] of raising one armrest. [if your husband was sitting next to me, he certainly wouldn't be raising our shared armrest!].

The new PE seats on Air France look fantastic - check them out on the Air France web site. You can't say that your husband would still choose economy!

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All these questions about "Is it worth getting Comfort Plus, Premium Economy, or Business class?" are just akin to "Is it worth getting a window cabin, a balcony, a suite?"

 

And the same kind of discussion you find in those forums.

 

Ain't capitalism great - you get to choose what is best for YOU and your circumstance.

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All these questions about "Is it worth getting Comfort Plus, Premium Economy, or Business class?" are just akin to "Is it worth getting a window cabin, a balcony, a suite?"

 

And the same kind of discussion you find in those forums.

To your average repeat cruiser, the differences between a window cabin, a balcony and a suite are pretty obvious. In contrast, the differences between (say) a premium economy seat and an economy seat are more nuanced. As the average cruiser is unlikely to have come across a premium economy seat, I can understand why people might want to ask what the differences are.

 

However, the "Is it worth it?" question always depends on how much "it" is. And that's the element of information that is, frustratingly, often missing from these threads.

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To your average repeat cruiser, the differences between a window cabin, a balcony and a suite are pretty obvious. In contrast, the differences between (say) a premium economy seat and an economy seat are more nuanced. As the average cruiser is unlikely to have come across a premium economy seat, I can understand why people might want to ask what the differences are.

 

Yes, the questions asking for clarification on what all the various "upgrades" are completely understandable. Even for frequent flyers, the ever changing nature of aircraft cabins, hard and soft products and ground services makes keeping up with details tough.

However, the "Is it worth it?" question always depends on how much "it" is. And that's the element of information that is, frustratingly, often missing from these threads.
And like so many price-driven decisions, unless you know what you are getting and what your own personal valuations are, it's almost close to a random guess. Especially the personal valuations. I suspect that many folks really don't want to grapple with economics at the margin (Econ 201), so they just look for someone else to, in effect, make the decision for them.

 

BTW and FWIW, one of my favorite blogs (and bloggers) is Tyler Cowen and his blog "Marginal Revolution". Worth the read, even for non-economists. Always an interesting tidbit or two. And while on the subject, they have an extensive series of free economics classes/videos to help the non-economist learn about this vital subject. Worth the time and effort, IMO.

 

Marginal Revolution

MR University

 

Keeping to the subject of aviation, one of the more fascinating posts at MR was a link to THIS ARTICLE that told how Kinshasa has a population of over 12 million people and is Africa's third largest city - bigger than London. Yet Kinshasa has only ELEVEN international flights a day from its airport. Heathrow. with over 1400. Interesting tale of urbanization without globalization.

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

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When it comes to long haul (we consider this flights over 4 hours non-stop) its a balance between your budget and your willingness to part with money for more comfort. On overnight flights (or really long flight over 8 hours) we look for anyway to justify lay flat business class seats. Sometimes you can get a pretty good deal through your cruise line. Other times we will book PE...and try to upgrade to Business within 24 hours of the flight or even at check-in.

 

The thing about PE, on International flights, is the comfort level is all over the place depending in your airline. We often rely on Seatguru.com for seat info....and also search the internet for recent first-person reviews of that airline, type of seat, and aircraft type. The best PE we have ever seen (and booked) was what they used to offer on some Air New Zealand flights between NZ and the USA. Their PE seats were better than many airline's business class....although they were not lay flat. Other airlines might only give you a regular economy seat with 3-5 inches of additional pitch (leg room). While that is better than economy, one might want to consider how much they are paying per flying hour...for that extra space. DW and I do tend to splurge more on those overnight flights then on a day flight (such as most flights from Europe to the USA). On overnights, the ability to get a few hours of sleep can be worth real money...since that allows us to enjoy our first day (without falling asleep on our feet).

 

Hank

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You don't mention which aircraft you flew on, but for me, the extra legroom would more than make up for the benefit [?] of raising one armrest. [if your husband was sitting next to me, he certainly wouldn't be raising our shared armrest!].

 

The new PE seats on Air France look fantastic - check them out on the Air France web site. You can't say that your husband would still choose economy!

 

 

 

Lol Don’t worry; my husband would never raise his armrest next to anyone but me. We booked one of the rare 2 person rows and had ample room. I think we were on a 777; we did have the newly designed PE seating. Online, it looked fantastic to me me. In person, I wasn’t as impressed. To each their own!

 

 

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The thing about PE......Other airlines might only give you a regular economy seat with 3-5 inches of additional pitch (leg room). While that is better than economy, one might want to consider how much they are paying per flying hour...for that extra space. /quote]

 

Make sure you are not comparing true "premium economy" with the lesser "economy plus" or similarly named product that a number of airlines offer. Those lesser products are indeed nothing more than a few extra inches of legroom, and perhaps a near imperceptible increase in seat recline, and that is very different from a TRUE premium economy seat. Apples and oranges....

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The thing about PE......Other airlines might only give you a regular economy seat with 3-5 inches of additional pitch (leg room). While that is better than economy, one might want to consider how much they are paying per flying hour...for that extra space. /quote]

 

Make sure you are not comparing true "premium economy" with the lesser "economy plus" or similarly named product that a number of airlines offer. Those lesser products are indeed nothing more than a few extra inches of legroom, and perhaps a near imperceptible increase in seat recline, and that is very different from a TRUE premium economy seat. Apples and oranges....

 

We hear ya :), One needs to understand that terms like "First Class," "Business Class," "Premium Economy," etc. are actually quite meaningless and are mere labels adopted by many airlines. There are no real standards for any of those classes. For those willing to spend a few minutes, it is now pretty easy to get definitive information on each airlines classes.....by aircraft type (and sometimes even specific flights). It only takes a few minutes to look at "seatguru" and a few other relevant sites to research options. Our own experience shows, again and again, that foreign (non-USA) carriers usually offer a better overall product then the major USA airlines. If I am flying from the USA to the Far East I am going to favor airlines like Singapore, Cathay Pacific and even China Air over United! If heading east I would be looking at some of the European Airlines....but would fist evaluate the top Middle Eastern airlines such as Etihad and Emirates before I would even consider Untied, American or Delta! This is even more true when considering Premium Economy, Business and First.

 

I think the major US airlines are taking advantage to decreased competition. Where there is Southwest and Jetblue....you do have good price competition. But otherwise, American, Delta and United seem to compete against each other to see who can offer the least comfortable pricey seats...coupled with the worst food (if they even offer food). We recently flew Delta from ATL to PVR (Puerto Vallarta) in economy. This is about a 4 1/2 hour flight (including gate time) and Delta generally uses relatively new A320 aircraft. Economy get you about 30 inches of pitch...which means that anyone over about 5"10 will find their knees tucked in against the seat in front! We have watched them go from 34 inch to 32 inch to 30 inch....while also taking away most of the seat recline ability (because there is no room). Meanwhile, fuel prices have decreased, aircraft have become much more fuel efficient, and prices climb out of the stratosphere. As frequent travelers we are forced to accept this nearly inhumane treatment. And in our experience, Delta is the best of the 3 major US airlines (you do not even want to hear my rants about AA and United).

 

Hank

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but would fist evaluate the top Middle Eastern airlines such as Etihad and Emirates before I would even consider Untied, American or Delta! This is even more true when considering Premium Economy, Business and First.

 

PLEASE be very aware of the need to check equipment. For example, on Emirates, the A380 is quite nice in Business, with private seating and the onboard bar area. But the same airline's 777 uses 7 across slant-board seating that is several generations old, and with little personal space or privacy. Worlds of difference - in fact, I will add additional legs to my routings with Emirates just to avoid their 777.

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