Jump to content

Partial Charter/Incentive Groups??


Silver Sweethearts
 Share

Recommended Posts

What we booked as a 13-day cruise on the Spirit later this year has now become a 4-day and 9-day set of cruises - and several other cruises have been split as well presumably because they are not selling well. We would welcome opinions on the likelihood of Silversea bringing in partial charter/incentive travel groups, etc. to fill the void - especially on the shorter cruises.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you haven't already looked at the thread "Silver Whisper...A Very Very Weird Cruise," you need to do so. It's a cautionary tale about the risk of sailing on a partial charter. I have no inside information, but my instinct is to assume that the shorter the cruise, the more likely it is to be chartered (in whole or in part).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should have added that the fact that the "Spirit" is significantly larger than the "Whisper" doesn't mean it can't happen. We've had two great cruises on the "Spirit," but on the most recent one an English couple we met told us of a bad partial charter experience on that ship---similar to the one "BeeMinor" describes in the "Weird, Weird Cruise" thread. Maybe your travel agent can get a definitive answer from Silversea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not new for Silversea or for cruise lines in the luxury sector generally. I think that it is highly unlikely that this would be a partial charter. More likely is that this is a reaction to a cruise that isn't selling very well. Some friends of mine got hooked on Crystal by taking what they took to be a low-investment, short "taster" cruise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having recently learnt the hard way that Silverseas verbal reassurances aren’t worth anything and that they “lose” recordings of phone calls where concerned guests seek their reassurance, I would personally express my concerns in writing to them and not pay the balance until a satisfactory response is received in writing from them.

 

It is extremely unfortunate that a 6 star “ultra luxury” line needs to be treated with such scepticism but until they begin to operate their business honourably, unfortunately they need to be treated with extreme caution. Please dot the I’s and cross the T’s because when they let you down they’ll offer you no alternative but to either Sue them or hand over many thousands of dollars in order to redeem a pitiful future cruise discount.

 

I Apologise if I sound extremely negative but we have learnt the hard way that this company exhibits no morals and no ethics. They will make you promises that they cannot possibly keep in order to get your booking but then Close ranks when you prove to them that they have failed to deliver what they promised.

 

I Feel so upset that I need to inform people about how badly they will be treated by Silversea when they fail to deliver on the huge promises that they make but only wish that I was aware of their fundamental dishonesty before I handed over my money to them.

Edited by Daveywavey70
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

How does one even know if a sailing is/has a charter?

 

Do you have to ask on every particular sailing you are interested in? And keep checking to see if the sailing has a charter added to it??

 

 

Kind of like airline tickets/seats. I regularly check my air bookings, at least 2 times a week for schedule changes and equipment changes.

 

 

Should I now do that with my cruise bookings?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if you were to do that you would need to satisfy yourself whether you could rely on the reassurances you receive. Silversea are actively pursuing group bookings and have sales teams with targets to meet.

 

After unexpectedly finding that on a ship with a maximum capacity of 380 (Whisper) we found 270 passengers were group bookings, 220 in one of thrm, It was terrible. Having suffered the “cruise from hell” we were provided with reassurances whilst on board that Silversea accepted it was a disaster and how our complaints would be dealt with when we returned and now realise that the reassurances and promises were false and we were duped.

 

So by all means check but remember that you need to be able to trust what you are told. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does one even know if a sailing is/has a charter?

 

 

 

Do you have to ask on every particular sailing you are interested in? And keep checking to see if the sailing has a charter added to it??

 

 

 

 

 

Kind of like airline tickets/seats. I regularly check my air bookings, at least 2 times a week for schedule changes and equipment changes.

 

 

 

 

 

Should I now do that with my cruise bookings?

 

 

 

My experience on this increasing problem has been that SS will not under any circumstances confirm or otherwise whether a future cruise has been partially chartered.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My experience on this increasing problem has been that SS will not under any circumstances confirm or otherwise whether a future cruise has been partially chartered.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

I understand that the booze cruise was over the top and hope it is not likely to occur again. I am happy I was not on that cruise and am sorry for those who were.

 

But what is a partial charter? When does a group booking become a partial charter? Is a family reunion of 20 people a partial charter? Of 40? What about 60 university alumni on a ship carrying 600 guests? Etc.

 

On another luxury line that I travel there are often largish groups -- bridge enthusiasts, people seeking financial counsel from supposed experts, etc. -- with lots of guests. They are visible (name tags, etc.) and occasionally have events in what would otherwise be public space. They don't mix much with other guests. But they do little to impede my enjoyment of the cruise.

 

Sure, I would like to have the entire ship largely to myself. But such groups help keep the cruise line financially afloat and --within reason -- should be tolerated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point about groups vs charters.

 

I've been on a sailing with groups. Alumni from 2 schools. Michigan and Harvard I think (saw name tags). It was on Oceania Riviera so not a small ship. If I hadn't seen them wearing name tags, wouldn't have known they were onboard.

 

Which leads me to wonder... We sail Oceania mainly for 3 reasons. We don't drink, don't do ship shore excursions, and don't like "mega-ships". Wonder if the all-inclusive features (alcohol) on SS and others might be a factor? I know you can purchase beverage packages, but maybe the other pax are more like us, and there are truly more non-drinkers onboard than we think???

 

Or is it just really a luck of the draw?????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

kimanjo,

 

I think the way that people will view the risk depends on what you have experienced so far. If you have never experienced a very large and totally unsuitable group booking that ruins your cruise, then clearly you you wouldn’t have the same level of caution as us and we wouldn’t want to repeat it at any cost.

 

I had booked a fairly relatively expensive cruise for late 2019 and was about to book another earlier in the year, but having experienced the last cruise and having received extremely bad treatment from Silversea, only a fool would make the same error twice hoping for a different outcome. We cancelled the cruise we had already booked.

 

My wife and I were really looking forward to the cruise which we had planned to be the start of two or three cruises with SS a year after a lengthy lapse. We missed going on them.

 

Others can offer you reassurances and philosophise but in the end we all view risk differently. To me booking further cruises with Silversea feels a bit like going into a casino and putting all my cash on black or red. A Silversea cruise shouldn’t be a lottery and in the so called rare event they mess it up you should feel confident in their integrity that they will put it right, particularly when they have promised you that they would.

 

Well, that’s my view. :)

Edited by UKCruiseJeff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm

 

I guess that's what I'm wondering. If we've unknowingly reduced our risk of encountering the "booze cruise" set by booking a with a company with less drinkers? Are there really less? Or have we've just been lucky?

 

Makes me wonder.

 

Kind of like cigarette smoking. We think we mitigate our risk of encountering a lot of smokers, by trying to book the lines with the most restrictive smoking policies. We know we will still encounter some smokers, but not as many as on a line with the most lenient policy.

 

I don't know, just wondering and trying to keep our good luck going.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not new for Silversea or for cruise lines in the luxury sector generally. I think that it is highly unlikely that this would be a partial charter. More likely is that this is a reaction to a cruise that isn't selling very well. Some friends of mine got hooked on Crystal by taking what they took to be a low-investment, short "taster" cruise.

 

Actually this is how we got hooked on SS-we happened upon a 5 day SJU to SJU with stops at a new island everyday. We were so impressed we have since cruised with SS several times and have a cruise planned this September with friends from Phoenix in the Greek Isles-- excellent way to get a feel for the type of people,service, food, etc. you can expect-- we loved it so here we are--best marketing tool is actual use of the product if the product stands up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We have experienced many "groups".most you wouldn't realise were part of a group except by talking to them.Not a problem at all.We have experienced a large group that were noticeable and generally kept to themselves but really didn't have an effect on the other cruises.however once on the Explorer we had a group that was 75% of the passengers.Their minders thought that meant they had priority.It certainly had an effect on the non group passengers.But one effect was positive.The non groupers came together and stood up and complained as a group and we got treated very well on excursions etc after that.

 

 

The group was Captain's Choice from Australia.Many of the people travelling in their groups are no problem.But after that experience we got on the Captain's Choice mailing list so we know which cruises to avoid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For those in the UK... Silversea is bound as members of ABTA by the ABTA Code of Conduct and as Silversea operates in the UK by the 1992 packages regulations.

 

The very first ABTA rule ie 1a is ......

 

8fda43d9ff5bc6dc98b7d032aeea95a5.jpeg

 

... and Section 4 of the 1992 Holiday Package Act ....

 

6cfbdcc5874a5f1248551ef0bb5e5a07.jpeg

 

Neglecting to include important information is considered to be misleading. The EU has identical regulations, and I haven’t recently checked but I believe Oz may do as well. The US has no such regulations and they have no effective consumer protection.

 

Failing to inform customers in the UK or refusing to disclose it when asked specifically by a customer that has the consequence of a materially changed cruise character would be in breach of both the ABTA Code of Conduct and the package regs and as the regs say, compensation would be due.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Edited by UKCruiseJeff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

SS will not under any circumstances confirm or otherwise whether a future cruise has been partially chartered.

 

 

We changed a future cruise booking at the peak of the recent Group cruise brouhaha.

Swmbo asked the ta if the proposed cruise had any group bookings.

The ta copied the ss reply by email , which was an assurance that there were no group bookings.

 

 

Two more observations : In forming a carefully structured letter of complaint after a recent cruise that did not meet expectations, I emphasised that we had been cruising almost exclusively with SS and would like to continue to do so in the future.

Perhaps that statement along with the services of a very professional TA , made the difference.

 

 

I did not receive what I asked in terms of compensation, but on calm consideration I formed a view that the SS offer was probably all I would get and that the option of dumping the cruise line and pursuing a legal option was fraught with tension , anxiety , and risk .

 

 

Our dealings over many years with SS in Au have always been cordial ,professional and co-operative.

 

 

It passes my mind that the apparent intransigence of SS in the UK may have a connection with a well known ( mayhaps fallacious) penchant for complaint in the British psyche….

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It passes my mind that the apparent intransigence of SS in the UK may have a connection with a well known ( mayhaps fallacious) penchant for complaint in the British psyche….

 

What well known fallacious complaints are you referring too?

 

Examples?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What well known fallacious complaints are you referring too?

 

Examples?

Pass….. :-)

( even blind freddie would likely understand my allusion.. expansion would achieve nothing.. )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Failing to inform customers in the UK or refusing to disclose it when asked specifically by a customer that has the consequence of a materially changed cruise character would be in breach of both the ABTA Code of Conduct and the package regs and as the regs say, compensation would be due.

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

This seems awfully general and a lot would doubtless depend upon the definition of "materially."

 

  • Does a cruise line have to foresee all possibilities? Can they not depend upon reasonable expectations?
  • Would a cruise line be required to notify passengers that TA crossings in September/October are likely to be stormy?
  • Would a cruise line have to proactively notify all guests if it seems some containers on forthcoming cruise would not be delivered in time for reprovisioning?
  • Would a cruise line have to notify passengers on subsequent cruises that the ship has encountered mechanical problems (thought to have been resolved) on previous cruise?
  • Would a cruise line be required to reveal the number of children on a cruise whenever a guest inquired? Presence of children might materially change cruise experience for some guests.
  • Etc.
  • Etc.

I do not doubt that your account of the law is accurate. But I wonder how it works in practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It works very simply in practice and really is extremely simple to understand and is more a matter of common sense than law. Obviously there is no obligation to notify of things that are outside of their or they cannot know control.

 

Firstly, and most importantly if the company fails to inform of "something"(anything) and there is no complaint then the issue doesn't crystalise. It is only if as a consequence there is a complaint then the question is asked and the company's decision not to inform is evaluated with the wisdom of hindsight. So they may have breached the rule, but it didn’t as it turned out matter.

 

As a person who has been through this before I can tell you that a judge might simply ask himself, "If Mr and Mrs UKCruiseJeff had known when booking the cruise, and what they had eventually found out, what Silversea knew when they made the booking but failed to disclose, would they have proceeded with that cruise or might they have taken a different, one or simply decided not to proceed”. If the judge decides that the likely answer to that question is yes then clearly and self-evidently there had been a significant factor that had been withheld that had not been disclosed which would have enabled a customer to make an informed choice. The claim is probably therefore successful.

 

If Silversea had disclosed the factor originally and the customer continues then that obligation hasn't been breached, and the onus is transferred from Silversea onto the customers,

 

However, instead there may have been a different basis of complaint and claim ie a breach and failure of contract to provide what had been promised in terms of for example "ambience and atmosphere" in our case an ambience of "mixing with like minded people" that you might expect on an "Ultra Luxury" line keeping in mind the price paid, for example. So their failure to have completed renovations might fall under this category. So they may have escaped the first basis of complaint only to have failed the overiding issue of failing in providing what was listed on the tin because of in our case the group booking. Failing to fully complete renovations before a cruise is certainly within their control and they are therefore responsible for the consequences. These things happen, and an appropriate response is to apologise and offer mututslly acceptable compensation. If they fail to complete renovations and a customers experience is adversely effected and they fail to properly compensate then a judge hears the case and probably decides in favour of the complainant and decides how much to award.

 

An additional factor that would damage is an admission that they have a policy of not disclosing whether a cruise has group bookings on it or not if specifically asked. A judge might conclude that the reason they do this is because they know that customers might then not want to book on that cruise and that they prefer therefore to avoid their customers making an informed choice because it costs them money. It follows therefore that they knowingly and have a policy of withholding information that might customers to make an informed choice.

 

Overlaying all this is that there is no easy right of appeal in the lowest court except on the basis of the behaviour of the judge, but not on his decision. Also being the lowest court no precedents are set and so the judge can use a degree of common sense without being overly concerned about being appealed. There is a natural leaning in the lower court towards the reasonable complainant and certainly against an unhelpful defendant.

 

It is quite straightforward really and I hope that explains.

Edited by UKCruiseJeff
Link to comment
Share on other sites

TGH, which well known fallacious cases are you referring too?

 

Observer,it’s nothing to do with forseeing all possibilities, it’s about taking a responsible approach to informing people about material facts that are LIKELY to effect the holiday.

 

Two examples of this might be as follows

 

1) Cutting a ship in half, stretching it, refurbishing it and putting it back into service before it’s finished and without scheduling in enough time to fully test it and filling it with fare paying passengers.

 

2) Booking 220 pax that are obviously not going to be Silverseas usual standard of guest on a freebie cruise on a relatively small ship with unlimited booze without seeking reassurances from the group organisers about both the conduct of the guests and measures to ensure that there behaviour has little impact on the other guests.

 

These are both examples of where, in the most basic terms were there was a good possibility that this disclosure of this information would have resulted in the customer making a different decision. The breaches of the regulations are only the beginning of it. Not only are they in breach of the law and the code of conduct but you have to question the integrity of a company that in the first example was happy to send out an untested and unfinished ship and made no provision for any potential problems and in the second example continues to take large group bookings while refusing to intervene when their behaviour impacts the other passengers.

 

Further to that, you have to consider the reaction and response of the company to remedying the situation brought about by their failure to meet their legal obligations.

 

Nobody here or indeed the regulations suggest that they should foresee every potential problem but on a common sense approach even without the benefit of hindsight both of these examples were LIKELY to impact the enjoyment of the holiday and they were therefore obliged to inform people beforehand, especially when you factor in Silverseas marketing claims.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

  • Forum Jump
    • Categories
      • Welcome to Cruise Critic
      • New Cruisers
      • Cruise Lines “A – O”
      • Cruise Lines “P – Z”
      • River Cruising
      • ROLL CALLS
      • Digital Photography & Cruise Technology
      • Special Interest Cruising
      • Cruise Discussion Topics
      • UK Cruising
      • Australia & New Zealand Cruisers
      • Canadian Cruisers
      • North American Homeports
      • Ports of Call
      • Cruise Conversations
×
×
  • Create New...