More fake service dog nonsense

REAL service dogs are well trained and do not bark, except as necessary to alert their person. For example, I know a woman who has petit mal seizures and her dog barks twice to alert her when he senses a seizure coming on. When he barks two staccato barks, she knows she must sit down or lie down. (And anytime you see her out with her dog, he will be wearing a service vest to indicate he is working and not to be petted or otherwise messed with by dog lovers.) There are many reasons for a trained service dog to bark as a warning or an alert, but it would never be a prolonged period of barking unless the person died or had some kind of terrible accident. If I heard an alleged service dog barking on a ship, I'd assume the dog was working and call 911 and Security immediately to get emergency help to that person's cabin.

 

REAL service dogs do amazing things to assist their owners and enable people with disabilities and serious medical issues to be independent and more fully enjoy their lives, doing things such as cruising. Unfortunately even service dogs do have 'doggie needs' and, of course, they need a doggie bathroom area. I have no issue with this part, although I realize it creates a constant cleaning task for crew, and there may be times when I'm walking the track and I might smell fresh dog stuff in the bathroom box. A service dog has been taught the realities of doggie bathrooms, is well trained, and will use the proper place with a minimum of fuss. But not all dogs on ships are true service dogs, and not all respect the doggie bathroom area. (I suspect the ones that don't are the ones that aren't really service dogs. I have seen/smelled some dog stuff in other places on ships.:()

 

My objection is not to service dogs. I think service dogs are awesome. I spent many years during my career working with both professionals and clients who used service dogs. Many times I have driven my colleagues/clients with blindness and/or medical issues who used dogs and who could not drive to various meetings/conferences/public hearings we needed to go to, and the dog rode with us.

I am not really a dog person. I don't hate dogs, I just don't personally choose to be close to them. Some dogs make me sneeze when I'm around them, some have bad manners and jump up on me without my permission, some dogs scare/repulse me, and I think a lot of dogs smell bad and have bad breath, so it was not easy for me to welcome a dog of any kind into my vehicle. However I did, and there was never a problem. No service dog ever did anything wrong in my car. All behaved perfectly. I have great respect for service animals and I suspect some of them may be more intelligent than I am.:o

 

My objection is to the FAKE service animals. Oh wait...now that I pause to think about it...my objection is not really to the fake service animals, my objection is really to the obnoxious/oblivious/selfish people who lie to bring them aboard, forcing them into a foreign environment that the animal cannot handle. We now have one happy cruiser (Woo Hoo! I got to bring my purse dog!), one anxiety riddled purse dog (Gotta bark, gotta bark, gotta bark bark bark) and a bunch of unhappy cruisers who must endure the barking. So maybe I don't hate the purse dog, I hate the woman with the purse.:confused:

 

I've never had to endure a prolonged period of barking on a cruise. If I did, I would not call Guest Services. I would call 911 and Security and send Emergency Medical Services plus Security to the cabin where the barking was coming from. Repeatedly. Every time I heard the barking. As a retired professional who worked with people with disabilities, I know that REAL service dogs only bark continuously when there is an emergency.

 

And now you know it too....call 911 and Security, not Guest Services.;)

If a service dog is continuously barking, there must be a DREADFUL emergency...so wake 'em up and send 'em out.

Happy Cruising'....

Judy

That was my thought too. Call emergency.

That was my thought too. Call emergency.

Who would leave an Emotional Support Dog if it is in fact required!? If no one is in the cabin with the dog, then the dog should removed by security and quarantined at the expense of the person.

I agree many problems with service animals that are not real or are not trained. By service animals I mean all of them. But I do not see things changing when the risks are so high to business. Can only ask two questions and cannot demand proof, so many people will just lie. If business do try to enforce and overstep with a real service dog the lawsuit would cost millions. So the cruise lines like many other business protect themselves. Which in the end has some passengers mad but no lawsuits.

REAL service dogs are well trained and do not bark, except as necessary to alert their person. For example, I know a woman who has petit mal seizures and her dog barks twice to alert her when he senses a seizure coming on. When he barks two staccato barks, she knows she must sit down or lie down. (And anytime you see her out with her dog, he will be wearing a service vest to indicate he is working and not to be petted or otherwise messed with by dog lovers.) There are many reasons for a trained service dog to bark as a warning or an alert, but it would never be a prolonged period of barking unless the person died or had some kind of terrible accident. If I heard an alleged service dog barking on a ship, I'd assume the dog was working and call 911 and Security immediately to get emergency help to that person's cabin.

 

REAL service dogs do amazing things to assist their owners and enable people with disabilities and serious medical issues to be independent and more fully enjoy their lives, doing things such as cruising. Unfortunately even service dogs do have 'doggie needs' and, of course, they need a doggie bathroom area. I have no issue with this part, although I realize it creates a constant cleaning task for crew, and there may be times when I'm walking the track and I might smell fresh dog stuff in the bathroom box. A service dog has been taught the realities of doggie bathrooms, is well trained, and will use the proper place with a minimum of fuss. But not all dogs on ships are true service dogs, and not all respect the doggie bathroom area. (I suspect the ones that don't are the ones that aren't really service dogs. I have seen/smelled some dog stuff in other places on ships.:()

 

My objection is not to service dogs. I think service dogs are awesome. I spent many years during my career working with both professionals and clients who used service dogs. Many times I have driven my colleagues/clients with blindness and/or medical issues who used dogs and who could not drive to various meetings/conferences/public hearings we needed to go to, and the dog rode with us.

I am not really a dog person. I don't hate dogs, I just don't personally choose to be close to them. Some dogs make me sneeze when I'm around them, some have bad manners and jump up on me without my permission, some dogs scare/repulse me, and I think a lot of dogs smell bad and have bad breath, so it was not easy for me to welcome a dog of any kind into my vehicle. However I did, and there was never a problem. No service dog ever did anything wrong in my car. All behaved perfectly. I have great respect for service animals and I suspect some of them may be more intelligent than I am.:o

 

My objection is to the FAKE service animals. Oh wait...now that I pause to think about it...my objection is not really to the fake service animals, my objection is really to the obnoxious/oblivious/selfish people who lie to bring them aboard, forcing them into a foreign environment that the animal cannot handle. We now have one happy cruiser (Woo Hoo! I got to bring my purse dog!), one anxiety riddled purse dog (Gotta bark, gotta bark, gotta bark bark bark) and a bunch of unhappy cruisers who must endure the barking. So maybe I don't hate the purse dog, I hate the woman with the purse.:confused:

 

I've never had to endure a prolonged period of barking on a cruise. If I did, I would not call Guest Services. I would call 911 and Security and send Emergency Medical Services plus Security to the cabin where the barking was coming from. Repeatedly. Every time I heard the barking. As a retired professional who worked with people with disabilities, I know that REAL service dogs only bark continuously when there is an emergency.

 

And now you know it too....call 911 and Security, not Guest Services.;)

If a service dog is continuously barking, there must be a DREADFUL emergency...so wake 'em up and send 'em out.

Happy Cruising'....

Judy

Fantastic Post! Good Idea - call 911, ship's Security. and Emergency Medical Services in that situation.

I am a dog lover, but our GSDs stay at a local kennel while we cruise. They travel with us in our RV across Canada and the U.S. on a regular basis; they are well trained, but not as service dogs.

Thanks for a really good post, Judy. Nice to hear from you. How is OKC?

 

Kay (& Steve)

Hi Kay & Steve!!! We haven't seen you guys in ages - we'll have to meet up on a ship again and have some fun. OKC is getting HOT unfortunately. How about LR?

Judy

Just FYI...The ADA does not recognize 'emotional support' animals or 'therapy' animals or beloved pets as service animals. Most states (including Florida, location of RCI corporate HQ) do not recognize them either. So RCI could actually step up, refine its own policy, and not allow those kinds of animals aboard. Here's the policy.

http://www.royalcaribbean.com/contentWithHero.do?pagename=service_animals

And there's this caveat in the RCI policy statement:

If the service dog's behavior creates a fundamental alteration or a direct threat to safety, the dog may be denied boarding or removed from the ship along with the owner at the guest's expense. Examples include: growling, barking excessively, initiating unsolicited contact, biting other guests and/or crewmembers, failure to use designated relief areas, sitting on furniture, eating from the table, etc.

So complaints from other pax that they are experiencing a "fundamental alteration" to their cruise due to the animal behavior(s) described in the policy above should be taken seriously.

(I just think those complaints will be taken more seriously if they are made to Security and Emergency Medical, rather than Guest Services. Probably the best approach would be the trifecta - complain to all three.)

Judy

Who would leave an Emotional Support Dog if it is in fact required!? If no one is in the cabin with the dog, then the dog should removed by security and quarantined at the expense of the person.

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Love it!!

Love it!!

You might love post 290 as well.

This happened on Frontier arriving at Orlando a couple of days ago. Details on what started this is unclear. News said they were told that the man without the dog was sensitive to the dog and asked to be moved in his seat. Some said dog was near him in his seat and he pushed the dog back. I don’t know. The dog owner and his wife took it to a more intense level.

http://www.fox35orlando.com/fast-five/deaf-couple-in-altercation-after-service-dog-allegedly-punched-on-flight

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This happened on Frontier arriving at Orlando a couple of days ago. Details on what started this is unclear. News said they were told that the man without the dog was sensitive to the dog and asked to be moved in his seat. Some said dog was near him in his seat and he pushed the dog back. I don’t know. The dog owner and his wife took it to a more intense level.

 

http://www.fox35orlando.com/fast-five/deaf-couple-in-altercation-after-service-dog-allegedly-punched-on-flight

 

 

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I'm certainly no expert, but I didn't see anything in the video showing the behavior of a trained hearing dog. It was skittish during the altercation, having broken away from the female owner, and instead of sitting quietly until an owner took control again, it jumped around. It didn't seem to have much attention for the owner's during the segment on the plane either. Just my opinion, maybe someone with a true hearing dog can jump in.

But shame on the FAA and the airlines for allowing a dog that size to block the seat access, whether of the owners or someone seated outboard of them. There needs to be safety rules that restrict the ADA rights of service dog owners, just like the SCOTUS has found that SOLAS trumps the ADA when it comes to accessibility issues.

This is one of the things that has caused us to shift most of our vacation dollars to land based. There are selfish, entitled people everywhere but on a cruise with people (and dogs) in such close quarters the stupidity becomes inescapable.

I understand that several airlines have set up new rules on letting dogs onto planes. Enforcing rules. I think its time the cruise lines do also.

Love it!!

Thought it was funny, too! No small amount of irony in the sketch!

The DOT is requesting comments on proposed new rules for service animals and ESA’s.

https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=DOT-OST-2018-0068

Although this is for air carriers, it may limit what gets to the ship.

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The DOT is requesting comments on proposed new rules for service animals and ESA’s.

 

https://www.regulations.gov/docket?D=DOT-OST-2018-0068

 

Although this is for air carriers, it may limit what gets to the ship.

 

 

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Not really. The ships are regulated by the ADA, which is a DOJ not DOT jurisdiction, while the airlines are regulated by the ACAA, which is a DOT jurisdiction.

Not really. The ships are regulated by the ADA, which is a DOJ not DOT jurisdiction, while the airlines are regulated by the ACAA, which is a DOT jurisdiction.

I guess my point was, if they limit what gets on the plane, it would limit what gets to the ship. That is, unless they are driving to the port with their animals.

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I guess my point was, if they limit what gets on the plane, it would limit what gets to the ship. That is, unless they are driving to the port with their animals.

 

 

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The thing is, that the ADA is more restrictive than the ACAA, and yet the cruise lines allow what are obviously fake or real ESA's onboard, when they don't have to. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the only way this will change is when someone gets bitten, and CLIA creates a "service animal code of conduct".

The thing is, that the ADA is more restrictive than the ACAA, and yet the cruise lines allow what are obviously fake or real ESA's onboard, when they don't have to. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the only way this will change is when someone gets bitten, and CLIA creates a "service animal code of conduct".

But Royal Caribbean already has one. Someone posted it above.

Like so many other things, RC does not enforce it.

The thing is, that the ADA is more restrictive than the ACAA, and yet the cruise lines allow what are obviously fake or real ESA's onboard, when they don't have to. Unfortunately, in my opinion, the only way this will change is when someone gets bitten, and CLIA creates a "service animal code of conduct".

I think that is where they are headed in some of the proposed revisions. They are trying to limit the types of animals, and not rely on the fake vests that can be bought online.

One of the sections (it is 41pages long) suggests revising ADA to have passengers attest that the animal has been properly trained to behave appropriately.

The airlines, and probably RCI for that matter, don’t want to have their employees trying to make a determination on how an animal will behave, based on their limited observation.

Let’s hope there are enough common sense comments to make some meaningful changes.

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Why would a foreign flagged vessel be subject to ADS regulations?

Doug

Why would a foreign flagged vessel be subject to ADS regulations?

 

Doug

I assume you meant ADA? Yes, to an extent. Lines cannot discriminate against disabled passengers in booking, and there must be some accessible cabins on every ship. Ships built before 2004, when SCOTUS ruled on Spector v NCL, only have to provide "readily attainable" changes to meet accessibility in public areas, while new ships should meet them completely. A caveat that SCOTUS inserted was that SOLAS requirements trump the ADA requirements. And here's the big caveat, SCOTUS ruled that without specific mention of foreign flag cruise ships, the ships' "internal policies and procedures" are not held to the ADA. This means that if the cruise industry finds it economically justified to build a set of "service animal code of conduct" (as RCI has done), then these codes can be more restrictive than ADA accessibility rules.

Sorry, didn't read that your question was why. The why is because the ship is providing a "service" within the territorial waters of the US, so the ship must comply with local, state, and federal laws (to a certain extent, but that's a much longer answer). Any business providing a service in the US must comply with the ADA.

Sorry, didn't read that your question was why. The why is because the ship is providing a "service" within the territorial waters of the US, so the ship must comply with local, state, and federal laws (to a certain extent, but that's a much longer answer). Any business providing a service in the US must comply with the ADA.

So a cruise ship only sailing in Europe would not have to? (Silently hoping never to see an 'emotional support animal' on a cruise)

So a cruise ship only sailing in Europe would not have to? (Silently hoping never to see an 'emotional support animal' on a cruise)

They would not have to abide by the US's ADA, but by any laws in the local countries or EU regarding service animals and accessibility for disabled passengers.