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Frank del Rio comments on Oceania bookings/pricing


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A question on the definition of “upfront “.

 

If I book La Reserve, with is an extra cost, yet pay 4 months in advance, is that upfront or onboard? Same goes with booking an O shore tour in advance. Not part of the fare but one can pay pre boarding. Upfront earnings or not?

 

 

Slide 70 uses the labels "Ticket" and "Onboard" without further explanation. I don't know the answer to your question - you could always try NCL investor relations for a more specific definition...

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Greydog;

 

We were luckier than Paulchili. Our 8/28-9/5 river cruise on Uniworld went as planned. Uniworld is a great line whose food at least equals Oceania ( if not surpasses) and with a much better included wine list.

 

We have sailed four times with them and are exploring several other trips. In hindsight, we should have done Vietnam, Thailand, and Cambodia with Uniworld rather than our Nautica cruise there in February. When India perks to the top of the list , it will be with Uniworld not an ocean liner. Uniworld Egypt was tremendous last year!

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Pinotlover, the big thing that has kept us from river cruising is our intense dislike of being bused places and on tours with more than, say, 15 people. Should I reconsider river cruising? I am actually looking at a barge tour for 2020. 12 passengers on a lux barge sounds very appealing.

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Whatever your expectations for cruising are today. LOWER THEM tomorrow. 10,000 baby boomers are retiring EACH DAY and they all have cruising on their bucket lists. Simple supply and demand. Plan on getting a whole lot less for a whole lot more money for quite a while. Regardless of cruise line. That's the market reality until the dollar collapses, we go to war with Russia in Syria, or we have an honest to goodness credible threat to the survival of the republic. Just the way of the world.

T Tail

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Pinotlover, the big thing that has kept us from river cruising is our intense dislike of being bused places and on tours with more than, say, 15 people. Should I reconsider river cruising? I am actually looking at a barge tour for 2020. 12 passengers on a lux barge sounds very appealing.

 

Our river boat experiences were strictly with Viking, and the most recent cruise was in early 2012. But we didn't have bus tours -- generally they were walking tours at the port. Given that the boat docks right in the middle of the town, this is generally not difficult. When we had a bus tour it was a paid "extra" tour -- such as when we were in Arles and had a tour to Les Baux and Van Gogh's St. Remy. This was on a bus but it was NOT a large group.

 

We did China in 2008 with Viking (a marvelous experience) and in this case they broke up the passengers into groups of about 30 people that was indeed on a bus. But not a crowded bus and we had a wonderful local guide.

 

Besides, you don't HAVE to do the walking tours (at least as structured on Viking).

 

We haven't done a river boat since 2012 because we felt on that cruise (a B2B in France, from Arles to Paris, with Normandy in the middle) river boating ahd just become too popular. In France we were frequently triple docked in ports which meant walking across from our boat to another ... This didn't happen at all on our first Basel-Amsterdam river boat cruise, but indeed we were on one of the last sailings of the season that year which might be why it was not so crowded in ports.

 

Viking also seemed to be cutting costs (maybe with all the ships they've been building since then, both river and ocean). Dinners were interminable (although quite good in general) with 5 servers for 150 people ...

 

Actually, I'm not trying to discourage you from the idea! Our experience is limited and not that recent. But we DID enjoy the experience.

 

We never had the problem with low water, although friends of ours did -- probably around 2010. I forget their itinerary but when they got there they discovered that the water levels were too low and so they were bused a lot from port to port. I think they would have been happier if the cruise had been canceled rather than resorting to buses.

 

Mura

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Pinotlover, the big thing that has kept us from river cruising is our intense dislike of being bused places and on tours with more than, say, 15 people. Should I reconsider river cruising? I am actually looking at a barge tour for 2020. 12 passengers on a lux barge sounds very appealing.

Most river cruise line may bus people to the city/town if they are unable to dock there but once there the bus load separate into smaller groups of less than 20

at least this was our experience with Scenic

 

A barge cruise would be nice but not sure I would like to be on a small boat for a week or more unless you got on with everyone ..sort of like set dining :halo:

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Time will tell. If prices go up, some people will look for other vacation options. Retired people may have the time to cruise. However, not all are wealthy enough to not care about price increases. Many live comfortably on pensions, savings, and social security. Some just get by. There are many price increases. Not many increases in pensions or social security. The new trade tariffs are showing up in higher prices for imported products. I bought new washer and dryer yesterday. All imported machines have higher prices. The new tariffs will hit everyone sooner or later. Time will tell which way the cruise bookings go.

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Cruise Critic's boards have a whole section on River Cruising and it has become quite active. For anyone considering a river cruise, you will find a lot of information about lines, water levels, etc. Probably the best place to get answers or advice on any of your concerns about river cruising.

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River cruises just look too boring for us. They average maybe 200 passengers on a cruise and go about 100 miles before stopping at another port.

 

For us when it comes to cruising, it's all about variety and great itineraries. We started with HAL and Celebrity in their veranda cabins. Then for a few more $$$ we discovered Crystal and Oceania and their veranda cabins. Wow, what a difference, especially in the food department! We now love cruising with Oceania in their concierge cabins and continue to enjoy their great food.

 

However, we're finding if the itinerary is right we can book a vista suite on Princess or a sky suite on Celebrity for roughly the same price and enjoy a larger cabin, great food and a lot more fun on the entertainment side. In addition now that HAL has reinvented their Maasdam and the Rotterdam is taking over some of the Prinsendam itineraries, we're finding some pretty unique 20+ day itineraries with HAL that are catching our eye as well.

 

Now, we'll still cruise with O when they have a cool itinerary that catches our eye, especially if it's on the Riviera or Marina, but there are definitely some other great cruise lines out there as well.

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River cruises just look too boring for us. They average maybe 200 passengers on a cruise and go about 100 miles before stopping at another port.

 

.

How far do ocean cruises go before stopping in the next port ? :evilsmile:

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How far do ocean cruises go before stopping in the next port ? :evilsmile:

Good point. You got me on that one. But usually the cruises we go on, which lately run 20-40 days in length, have a variety of sea days scattered throughout the cruise on which we have a great time enjoying many of the events the various lines we sail on have to offer.

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Such a great thread. Another great source for cruising financial info are the corporate annual reports. Carnival’s showed sources of revenue (cabins vs. excursions vs. gambling, etc—fascinating. As well as their Costa insurance write-offs due to Concordia lawsuits, etc).

 

If anyone finds a good spreadsheet for comparing apples to apples, I would love to see it! We have cruised 15 times each on Carnival and Princess—now branching out to Cunard, Oceania and most recently MSC (which we loved).

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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Whatever your expectations for cruising are today. LOWER THEM tomorrow. 10,000 baby boomers are retiring EACH DAY and they all have cruising on their bucket lists. Simple supply and demand. Plan on getting a whole lot less for a whole lot more money for quite a while. Regardless of cruise line. That's the market reality until the dollar collapses, we go to war with Russia in Syria, or we have an honest to goodness credible threat to the survival of the republic. Just the way of the world.

T Tail

 

OP, spot on analysis - I appreciate your usage of demographics to analyze an industry sector.

 

I suspect the premium and luxury segments will be able to raise prices the most while providing less product offering value. In this scenario, our household will most certainly eliminate most cruising purchases and transfer our funds to golf vacations around the world.

 

OP your notations about the sheer size of the baby boomer retirement is also interesting. Celebrity seems focused on attracting the young generation with many long time Celebrity patrons (us formerly) getting a message to bugger off. We have.

 

We are taking our 2nd Oceania voyage in a little more than a week, we will be watching very carefully for product quality erosion. Based on the price (even more pain in Cdn $), if the experience goes downhill, we will make a decision on the future of Oceania in our vacation planning future.

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In reading all the details comparing this line to that, cost, value etc. do not forget to do a full comparative analysis.. In comparing what a given ship experience will produce and cost, do not forget to do what a land/flying/driving/train would cost ! What would it cost to experience a similiar personal experience by alternatives to that Cruise. ??? Here is an example that I was recently forced to deal with:

 

A. Sail 7 days on O with a veranda, Port a day, cutting on board ship experience by 40-50% Florence, Corsica, Palma Mallorica Barcelona Monte Carlo Rome. ( 4 of which I had visited 2 or more times) cost about $4960. Air by CC, extra tours, drinks estimated at $1000 plus service ch.$224 Transfer/taxi 200, 2 nights hotel $450of== All food included= $6834. - $600 obc

=$6234 or for 9 days $692 per day for 2

 

B. Fly to Rome on FF Rental MBZ $1200,Rome, Zurich, Kaiserberg, Chamonix, Murren, Zermatt Gorges Verdon, Turin ,Monte Carlo, Province,Vienna, all in 3-4 star hotels 15 nights $2300,00 Gas and tolls $320, Meals all BLD + dining at 4 michelin* and ** places in France $1980 All other admission, tours 411. = $6211 for 15 days $414 per day for 2 !!

 

So $281 cheaper to do a land and see 50% more Yes , Virginia Cruising is nice but its not the only way of travel The one exception would be the South Pacific, Tahiti where your a fool to stay on land VS a ship. Try driving Bora Bora to Fiji !!!

 

What is your value Is it cost or is it coast and experience. What limitations do ships have, long port days, you can't visit the Matterhorn very well on a ship. Should you consider that cruising is the only way to go because of what you have heard? Are there alternatives where you are in more control, no cancellation, food, schedules??? All points to consider under value The Cruise lines will tell you what they want you to believe, it is not necessarily a good deal or value to you.

 

Hey, I got cancelled by a cruise and was both sad and angry, but it forced me to make lemonade out of lemons. The result was a far more exciting, personal experience with far more value than a cruise.. I had been brainwashed to exclude any option other than cruising... This experienced forced me to make a plan B...

 

It is a given that ALL cruise lines will be changing to some extent, some greater than others. That change will effect VALUE. Value is subjective just as food is

 

Cruise lines are counting on the decades of hype and positive PR spread by the old past passengers who created a enticing , rosy picture that younger people embraced.

It is this past that so enamors people to cursing.. It is like the Emerald City in the Wizard of OZ.. something to dream and quest for that they heard about It is also know as brainwashing in other circles..

As said new changes in the cruise market may make it wise to consider other alternatives....

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In reading all the details comparing this line to that, cost, value etc. do not forget to do a full comparative analysis.. In comparing what a given ship experience will produce and cost, do not forget to do what a land/flying/driving/train would cost ! What would it cost to experience a similiar personal experience by alternatives to that Cruise. ??? Here is an example that I was recently forced to deal with:

 

A. Sail 7 days on O with a veranda, Port a day, cutting on board ship experience by 40-50% Florence, Corsica, Palma Mallorica Barcelona Monte Carlo Rome. ( 4 of which I had visited 2 or more times) cost about $4960. Air by CC, extra tours, drinks estimated at $1000 plus service ch.$224 Transfer/taxi 200, 2 nights hotel $450of== All food included= $6834. - $600 obc

=$6234 or for 9 days $692 per day for 2

 

B. Fly to Rome on FF Rental MBZ $1200,Rome, Zurich, Kaiserberg, Chamonix, Murren, Zermatt Gorges Verdon, Turin ,Monte Carlo, Province,Vienna, all in 3-4 star hotels 15 nights $2300,00 Gas and tolls $320, Meals all BLD + dining at 4 michelin* and ** places in France $1980 All other admission, tours 411. = $6211 for 15 days $414 per day for 2 !!

 

So $281 cheaper to do a land and see 50% more Yes , Virginia Cruising is nice but its not the only way of travel The one exception would be the South Pacific, Tahiti where your a fool to stay on land VS a ship. Try driving Bora Bora to Fiji !!!

 

What is your value Is it cost or is it coast and experience. What limitations do ships have, long port days, you can't visit the Matterhorn very well on a ship. Should you consider that cruising is the only way to go because of what you have heard? Are there alternatives where you are in more control, no cancellation, food, schedules??? All points to consider under value The Cruise lines will tell you what they want you to believe, it is not necessarily a good deal or value to you.

 

Hey, I got cancelled by a cruise and was both sad and angry, but it forced me to make lemonade out of lemons. The result was a far more exciting, personal experience with far more value than a cruise.. I had been brainwashed to exclude any option other than cruising... This experienced forced me to make a plan B...

 

It is a given that ALL cruise lines will be changing to some extent, some greater than others. That change will effect VALUE. Value is subjective just as food is

 

Cruise lines are counting on the decades of hype and positive PR spread by the old past passengers who created a enticing , rosy picture that younger people embraced.

It is this past that so enamors people to cursing.. It is like the Emerald City in the Wizard of OZ.. something to dream and quest for that they heard about It is also know as brainwashing in other circles..

As said new changes in the cruise market may make it wise to consider other alternatives....

Give us a break Dan and move on.

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Dan,

I hear you, and I myself prefer independent land travel in many instances, and I agree that we can bring the costs down significantly using miles and points, and we can have much more immersive experiences, but there are other factors to consider.

 

One, we pack light (carry on & personal item each), and are mobile and also willing to transport ourselves, whether by public transit or rental car. Not everyone is so inclined or necessarily able. And many people like to "unpack once" as opposed to living out of a suitcase.

 

Two, truly independent travel requires a good amount of research and planning (speaking from 30+ years of personal experience). That's an investment of time and energy that many people may not want to make. With a cruise, it is easy enough to book excursions via the cruise line or find others to share in a private excursion, perhaps with someone else doing the planning. How many roll calls have I been on where people are expressing a willingness to join private excursions, but never offering to plan any. With a cruise, you might have a combo of some independently researched ports and some organized excursions, but it is still less of a personal investment of time than a fully independent land trip.

 

Three, not everyone cares about or wants a totally immersive experience, preferring to have the comfort and convenience of knowing what their sleeping accommodations and dining options will be, rather than hoping they have chosen hotels and restaurants that suit them.

 

One size, and one budget, and one type of travel does not fit all. We will cruise where the itinerary meets our wants and needs and the price fits our budget. We will also travel independently for those immersive experiences we enjoy.

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It’s all a debate on what the market will bear. Last summer I booked early and staye, on our own, in the Copenhagen Marriott which O uses . O sent out about four full buses to the Nautica on Embarkment Day with people that had paid the outrageous pre cruise hotel Rates to O, some of which had been there at least the 3 days we were there early. Last Fall, in Athens, we stayed in the Westin next door to the hotel O uses as their ore cruise hotel. I think we counted seven buses they had lined up to carry people to the Marina. A lot of those same folks pay O’s outrageous shore tour prices with out blinking an eye or ever considering their Roll Call as an option. I realize not everyone has that kind of money to blow, particularly us, but I believe FDR is a pretty smart guy and knows the percentage of his targeted customers that do, and he’s going after them. Whatever price increases we see next week, I’m willing to bet that FDR’s research leads him to believe his targeted markets can and will bear the new costs.

 

One case in point. Look at all the posters claiming O does too many ports, they want more sea days! At $750 per night in a PH3, or $1500/ day for us, do you not grasp the incredible hotel suite , in great resorts, along with 1&2 Star Michelin restaurants we can eat in at those prices??!! We don’t cruise for sea days, but seems a lot of cruisers ( not travelers) want more! Money doesn’t seem to be the issue!

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