My musing on what could/should replace the Prinsendam

As there has been much musing about the Prinsendam and her inevitable exit from the HAL fleet I have been thinking a lot about if HAL (Carnival Corp) will replace her or not, and if they do what the solution would be.

I have come to the conclusion that she will NOT be replaced by an existing ship in the fleet as none of them can replicate her unique itineraries. Nor will she be replaced by another Carnival Corp ship (Seabourn vessels have been suggested by others but would require costly rebuilds due to their much lower passenger denisty). There is simply nothing with the right mix of cabins/suites/passenger density in the Carnival Corp family to transition to HAL in her place.

The only possible solution would be a newbuild. The newbuild would have to have a similar length, beam, draft, air draft and speed as Prinsendam. The newbuild would need to carry 850-950 passengers at double occupancy with more balcony rooms and less oceanviews than Prinsendam. The newbuild would need to be 40K tonnes or so as well. In general a wider, slightly longer "R-Class" vessel (By "R-Class" I here mean the Pacific Princess, Oceania Regatta/Insignia/Sirena/Nautica and Azamara Pursuit/Journey/Quest vessels that were originally built for Renaissance Cruises as the R1 through 8).

In the current economic environment we are seeing very few "one-off" vessels for the mainstream lines so I would propose Carnival Corp could build 6 nearly identical ships and outfit them specifically with 2 to HAL, 2 to Princess and 2 to Cunard. While they would all have the same general arrangement and overall layout, they could be custom fit/finished to each brands unique identity. The economy of scale from a marine/engineering standpoint would make the building programme viable, and that sized vessel would fit nicely into these three brands fleets without poaching from Carnival Corps "ultra luxury" Seabourn offering.

What are your thoughts fellow CC'ers? To be honest I am surprised that Carnival Corp have not announced such a programme, and the fact that they haven't means it probably has been considered and rejected in favour of larger vessels for the three brands with the knowledge that certain unique ports will become inaccessible in future, which is a pity.

She will not be replaced. Maasdam EXC is as close as you’ll get.

Sorry.

She will not be replaced. Maasdam EXC is as close as you’ll get.

 

Sorry.

I don't think many here, including myself, will dispute that.

However I was enjoy a few minutes to ponder the "what-if" and dream :) Just think of a slightly longer and wider up Renaissance R-Class with a full wraparound promenade deck, lots of standard balconies (with bigger bathrooms!), a proper library and observation lounge, etc and boy would she be a stunner!

It might have been a good idea for Carnival Corp to retain one of Princess's R-class ships and move it to HAL, rather than selling both of them out of the corporation. Then again, how much "younger" are the R-class ships than the current Prinsendam? :confused:

I can't see HAL investing in a small newbuild. It just isn't cost efficient for a mass market line. People complain about the higher fares on Prinsendam already and a new ship would cost even more to build and finish.

I'm afraid that the best we could hope for is if HAL acquires an older, small ship from somewhere, as was done with Prinsendam.....

The replacement has already been built - Viking Ocean.

Thanks for thinking about this, but if CCL can afford and want to build 6 smaller ships, they can create a new smaller ship cruise line to compete with Viking. Which is really is a market, well outside of their current Holland America/Princess branding. Viking has been the game changer - adding so many luxury smaller ships, and taking away some of the key HAL staffers along with them.

We loved the old Ocean Princess which had become the Voyages of Discovery, a smaller adventure ship, nimble to get into the smaller, older ports, but very much non-luxury and well past her prime.

They attempted to replace the Discovery with another smaller pre-built ship, the former Alexander von Humboldt and rechristened her the Voyager. It did not work, and that new ship had lots of problems but she did limped along with her devoted merry band of small ship adventure cruisers who could put up with 130 sq foot ocean view cabins and very awkward public spaces. But that only lasted a few years and she too passed into history.

From what I hear, new ships are incredibly expensive to build so they need a guarantee luxury passenger base up front if they expect to make them profitable. Not sure that is the heritage of today's Holland America to deliver. Sail the Prinsendam when you can, and be ready to say good by like we had to bid farewell to the Voyages of Discovery.

Our next experiment will be Voyages to Antiquity to see how well that is a replacement for the Voyages of Discovery and/or the Prinsendam. But it will never be Viking for us. Well beyond our price point and we don't like luxury cocoons anyway. We have now explored most corners of the world by ship and have only a few more areas to put on the map - Antarctica, Japan and far western South Pacific - so there are still choices besides the Prinsendam out there for those pieces of real estate.

We are glad we liked the Nieuw Amsterdam if we have to keep moving up in size, while we stay within the HAL brand of value cruising.

At our "ask the Captain" session on the Prinsendam a few weeks ago, Captain Dag stated that he could not envision CCL building another P'dam. That's not the direction that Mr. Ashford is taking the company.

Oceania bought the little Princess ship and sunk a pile of money into her to refurbish and bring her up to snuff and their style. She sails as the Sirena now.

A shame that CCL wouldn't be willing to do the same.

They could have done the same thing with that ship and chose not to. Sadly, I think HAL's intention is clear. When the P'dam goes, I am afraid that the powers to be will not have the wisdome to replace her. :(

I can't see Carnival spending BIG bucks on 6 small ships. What they would have to charge passengers to recoup the building costs would be horrible.

Once the Prinsendam is gone, that will be it for her unique itineraries. They are trying to have the Maasdam doing a couple of new itineraries -- but reading here, she is also showing her age.

At our "ask the Captain" session on the Prinsendam a few weeks ago, Captain Dag stated that he could not envision CCL building another P'dam. That's not the direction that Mr. Ashford is taking the company.

 

 

 

 

 

Oceania bought the little Princess ship and sunk a pile of money into her to refurbish and bring her up to snuff and their style. She sails as the Sirena now.

 

 

 

A shame that CCL wouldn't be willing to do the same.

 

 

 

They could have done the same thing with that ship and chose not to. Sadly, I think HAL's intention is clear. When the P'dam goes, I am afraid that the powers to be will not have the wisdome to replace her. :(

Maybe by the time that happens we will have a new person running the show who WILL consider a different direction for HAL.

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When Viking created it's Ocean group, and Virgin announced it's move, I could envision the CEOs of other lines closely watching this, poised to snap up the smaller ships if the lines fail...I think that will be the source of replacements for 'exotic cruising' ships. EM

Viking ocean is a huge step up from anything offered by the mass market lines, including Prinsendam. It is a huge hit in the marketplace and commands high per diems. It is privately owned and financed. If another financial crisis happens all cruise lines will suffer. Viking may or may not have lots of debt to service.

Renaissance cruise line built the R ships en mass, circa 2000. After 9/11, they ceased operations and sold their ships to Azamara, Oceania, Princess. P and O had one too. These wonderful, beautiful ships are roughly 18 years old.

In the unlikely, worst case scenario, mass market lines will not be buying Viking ships. Existing premium and luxury lines will buy them to update their fleets.

On June 13 Captain Albert posted from the Prinsendam in Visby Sweden. This was two days after a special port call to Turku Finland to celebrate the 30th anniversary of the building of the Prinsendam there. But part of the post was about sharing the dock with the Marco Polo, built 50 years ago and still in cruise service. So maybe the Prinsendam will not be going away that soon -- depends on the willingness to keep up with major maintenance.

During the 2018 WC CEO Q&A chat with Orlando Ashford he specifically mentioned that the Prinsendam would not be replaced due to current 'cruise economics'.

He also mentioned for those desiring the small ship experience like the Prinsendam offers that other Carnival ships, i.e Seabourne, would fill that niche & folks should expect to pay accordingly.

And the beat goes on...

Be well & safe travels,

Bob:)

The built quality of Prinsendam is MUCH MUCH higher than the Maasdam who was built to the low Fincantieri standard. Prinsendam will outlive Maasdam. That I can guarantee.

Thanks for thinking about this, but if CCL can afford and want to build 6 smaller ships, they can create a new smaller ship cruise line to compete with Viking. Which is really is a market, well outside of their current Holland America/Princess branding.

 

( You left out Seabourn

and Cunard[ /b]

o

Viking has been the game changer - adding so many luxury smaller ships, and taking away some of the key HAL staffers along with them.

 

We loved the old Ocean Princess which had become the Voyages of Discovery, a smaller adventure ship, nimble to get into the smaller, older ports, but very much non-luxury and well past her prime.

 

They attempted to replace the Discovery with another smaller pre-built ship, the former Alexander von Humboldt and rechristened her the Voyager. It did not work, and that new ship had lots of problems but she did limped along with her devoted merry band of small ship adventure cruisers who could put up with 130 sq foot ocean view cabins and very awkward public spaces. But that only lasted a few years and she too passed into history.

 

From what I hear, new ships are incredibly expensive to build so they need a guarantee luxury passenger base up front if they expect to make them profitable. Not sure that is the heritage of today's Holland America to deliver. Sail the Prinsendam when you can, and be ready to say good by like we had to bid farewell to the Voyages of Discovery.

 

Our next experiment will be Voyages to Antiquity to see how well that is a replacement for the Voyages of Discovery and/or the Prinsendam. But it will never be Viking for us. Well beyond our price point and we don't like luxury cocoons anyway. We have now explored most corners of the world by ship and have only a few more areas to put on the map - Antarctica, Japan and far western South Pacific - so there are still choices besides the Prinsendam out there for those pieces of real estate.

 

We are glad we liked the Nieuw Amsterdam if we have to keep moving up in size, while we stay within the HAL brand of value cruising.

Who do you think will purchase the long-serving and high-quality Prinsendam.

An existing cruise line, or a new cruise line? Perhaps the creation of another single ship speciality cruise line?

Lots of good information on this thread to the OP's original post.

My thoughts: While Mr. Ashford and his fellow executives (including Mr. Kruse, don't forget) surely would have input in what direction HAL will go as to size of a ship, the Carnival Corporation executives would have final say as to how their money will be spent.

The suggestion that two of the 6 smaller ships proposed by the OP go to Cunard wouldn't happen, I don't think. Years ago, Cunard tried that route with the Cunard Adventurer and Cunard Ambassador followed by Cunard Princess and Cunard Countess. Even our Prinsendam was once marketed under the Cunard flag. It didn't work then and I think its chance of working now is nil. Such ships don't fit the brand image of Cunard Line.

It's difficult for me to accept that HAL is willing to "give up" the type of cruisers/travelers that enjoy a ship like Prinsendam. But, I have not clearly understood some of the other decisions the "wise ones" in Seattle or Miami have made, either.

The built quality of Prinsendam is MUCH MUCH higher than the Maasdam who was built to the low Fincantieri standard. Prinsendam will outlive Maasdam. That I can guarantee.

I agree. :)

During the 2018 WC CEO Q&A chat with Orlando Ashford he specifically mentioned that the Prinsendam would not be replaced due to current 'cruise economics'.

 

He also mentioned for those desiring the small ship experience like the Prinsendam offers that other Carnival ships, i.e Seabourne, would fill that niche & folks should expect to pay accordingly.

 

And the beat goes on...

 

Be well & safe travels,

Bob:)

Well Mr. Ashford can dream on. We are all not running to Seabourne if the P'dam goes.

I suspect I am not alone in that thought and I also suspect HAL will lose a LOT of cruisers.

There are a number of people that sail P'dam and it is the only HAL ship they sail.

Lots of choices out there. If the executive want us to go looking, we can do so. :rolleyes:

The built quality of Prinsendam is MUCH MUCH higher than the Maasdam who was built to the low Fincantieri standard. Prinsendam will outlive Maasdam. That I can guarantee.

I agree. I sailed on the Veendam when she was two years old. There were quality of workmanship defects and quality of materials used on the ship then. (Example, the grouting around the bathtub in my stateroom was already coming loose and needed replacement.)

Who do you think will purchase the long-serving and high-quality Prinsendam.

An existing cruise line, or a new cruise line? Perhaps the creation of another single ship speciality cruise line?

She's going to Phoenix Reisen, they already own her sister Royal Viking Sea...

Well Mr. Ashford can dream on. We are all not running to Seabourne if the P'dam goes.

 

I suspect I am not alone in that thought and I also suspect HAL will lose a LOT of cruisers.

 

There are a number of people that sail P'dam and it is the only HAL ship they sail.

 

Lots of choices out there. If the executive want us to go looking, we can do so. :rolleyes:

Right on, and it's not only Orlando and Stein, don't forget Mr. Donald...

I can understand the draw of smaller, maybe more intimate or upscale cruising.

Bit, I seriously think I would die of boredom on Viking!

She's going to Phoenix Reisen, they already own her sister Royal Viking Sea...

Auch du Lieber - a German-speaking only ship:

Fremde Länder entdecken – Ausflüge mit Deutsch sprechender Reiseleitung

Sie möchten fremde Länder entdecken und sich die Welt ansehen? Auf einer Kreuzfahrt mit Phoenix Reisen haben Sie dafür ausreichend Gelegenheit. Die Liegezeiten in den Häfen sind so geplant, dass genügend Zeit für eine Entdeckungstour an Land bleibt. Besonders beliebt sind unsere organisierten Halb- und Ganztagesausflüge zu den schönsten Sehenswürdigkeiten auf Ihrer Reise. Ob Städteführung oder Wanderung in der Natur, in Zusammenarbeit mit unseren erfahren Partnern vor Ort bieten wir eine große Auswahl an Ausflügen, die Ihnen unvergessliche Erlebnisse bereiten. Schon vor Reisebeginn erhalten Sie einen Reiseführer mit Ihrem Ausflugsprogramm, aus dem Sie schon einige Wochen vorab Ihre Lieblingsausflüge online oder telefonisch buchen können. Auf dem Schiff und an Land werden Sie von unserer erfahrenen Phoenix-Reiseleitung betreut. Die Bordsprache ist auf allen Schiffen Deutsch und auch die Ausflüge werden bis auf einige Ausnahmen von deutsch sprechenden Reiseleitern durchgeführt.

Ein weiterer Pluspunkt: Wenn Sie Ihre Kreuzfahrt vor oder nach dem Ablegen mit einem Aufenthalt am Start- oder Zielort perfekt abrunden möchten, bekommen Sie von Phoenix Reisen ein maßgeschneidertes Gesamtangebot. Anreise, Hotel, Ausflüge oder ganze Rundreisen, Sie sagen, was Sie möchten, wir beraten Sie und stellen Ihre individuelle Reise zusammen.

I can understand the draw of smaller, maybe more intimate or upscale cruising.

Bit, I seriously think I would die of boredom on Viking!

Why do you think you would be bored?