London to Dublin as OneWorld Saphire

I don't want to overthink this, but it really seems the best way to go is to just pay the fare rather than using miles. BA charges $114 from LCY airport and AA charges $80 in fees for an award ticket + 12.5k miles.

 

My assumption is that as a Saphire member, I will be able to check in 2 bags per passenger regardless of whether I buy the ticket from BA or use miles on AA. Is my assumption correct regarding baggage?

Yes for all pax on the same pnr (1) assuming your one world sapphire FF number is in the record and (2) unless you are on a handbaggage only fare. OW baggage allowances do not apply on BA handbaggage fares.

 

I don't know what class AA awards on BA short haul economy book into. If there is a handbaggage only fare for sale on your flight, it's possible that an AA award books into it. I don't think it does but am not sure.

 

Edit: By the way, if you have Avios, or amex to transfer to avios, city to dub is only 4,000 avios plus $27.50 in economy or 7750 Avios plus $40 in business in off peak, a little more in peak.

Edited January 30, 2018 by Regguy

Edit: By the way, if you have Avios, or amex to transfer to avios, city to dub is only 4,000 avios plus $27.50 in economy or 7750 Avios plus $40 in business in off peak, a little more in peak.

These short-haul award tickets using Avios can be really good value.

 

And LCY is a fabulous airport if you're anywhere close by.

 

On a purely value-for-money approach, you'd want to think carefully about getting a business class ticket. The seating is 2-2 throughout, and all seats on the aircraft are the same. LCY-DUB (or LHR-DUB) is too short a flight for substantial catering to be offered on board. And there is no lounge at LCY.

 

Also, if possible, choose to fly on a 190 rather than a 170. The seat pitch is deeper throughout the entire aircraft.

Euro Traveler awards on BA book into the "X" fare bucket, with normal luggage allowances, so as OW Sapphire you should get 2 checked bags. But I'd pay for the flight anyway to avoid paying BA's ridiculous fees on top of the AA miles.

Euro Traveler awards on BA book into the "X" fare bucket, with normal luggage allowances ...

On a slightly OT point of pedantry, the booking class used doesn't say much about the baggage allowance. Many different booking classes can be used to book fares either with or without included baggage allowance.

 

... But I'd pay for the flight anyway to avoid paying BA's ridiculous fees on top of the AA miles.

What "ridiculous fees" are you referring to on a LCY-DUB? And how does paying for the flight avoid any of them anyway?

On a slightly OT point of pedantry, the booking class used doesn't say much about the baggage allowance. Many different booking classes can be used to book fares either with or without included baggage allowance.

 

What "ridiculous fees" are you referring to on a LCY-DUB? And how does paying for the flight avoid any of them anyway?

I was going on this thread from FT, which includes a BAEC email to the member on the subject: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1641920-ba-reward-flight-baggage-allowance-x-y.html

 

The OP was talking about using AA miles for the trip. AAdvantage (like BAEC) passes through BA's surcharges on top of the mileage requirement, something they don't do on redemptions on their own shorthaul flights. I don't know if BA adds any YQ or other fees (apart from APD etc.) on LON-DUB, but when you do the math it makes those "award" flights using AA miles a lousy deal most of the time.

I was going on this thread from FT, which includes a BAEC email to the member on the subject: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1641920-ba-reward-flight-baggage-allowance-x-y.html

 

The OP was talking about using AA miles for the trip. AAdvantage (like BAEC) passes through BA's surcharges on top of the mileage requirement, something they don't do on redemptions on their own shorthaul flights. I don't know if BA adds any YQ or other fees (apart from APD etc.) on LON-DUB, but when you do the math it makes those "award" flights using AA miles a lousy deal most of the time.

 

Right -- the base cheap fare from City to Dub is about $35 -- the remainder of the fare is made up of APD and carrier charges. AA passes these along on an award booking, so when you use AA miles you actually are only getting the base fare for "free" -- 12,500 miles for $35 is not that great. When booking using avios, BA caps the APD and surcharges -- about $25 for economy and $40 for business class. (Though I agree with the above comment that business class from city is a waste, unless you really need to eat and sit in front on a short plane ride.)

 

The handbaggage/basic fare question is an interesting one. British airways does not appear -- unlike, for example, AA -- to have a designated fare class for its basic economy. It appears it can sell pretty much every economy fare class, except B and Y, as handbaggage/basic, which is pretty confusing. It looks as though there are datapoints that X fares do not have a handbaggage option, so that's good. I guess it could at some point change -- although there may be something in the oneworld agreement that ensures that partner award bookings can't be exempted from the elite baggage requirements.

All of which demonstrates that, at least for BA, there is much more at play than just the first initial letter of a fare basis (aka "the bucket"). It's the specific rules of the multitude of fares within that bucket that are the operative issue.

 

Thank you BA for your continuing efforts to make things even more difficult than they were.

The OP was talking about using AA miles for the trip. AAdvantage (like BAEC) passes through BA's surcharges on top of the mileage requirement, something they don't do on redemptions on their own shorthaul flights. I don't know if BA adds any YQ or other fees (apart from APD etc.) on LON-DUB, but when you do the math it makes those "award" flights using AA miles a lousy deal most of the time.

Right -- the base cheap fare from City to Dub is about $35 -- the remainder of the fare is made up of APD and carrier charges. AA passes these along on an award booking, so when you use AA miles you actually are only getting the base fare for "free" -- 12,500 miles for $35 is not that great.

Thank you BA for your continuing efforts to make things even more difficult than they were.

If you fly from LCY to DUB on BA, there are the Passenger Service Charge and the Air Passenger Duty to pay. But there is no surcharge/carrier charge/YQ/YR.

 

If you redeem AA miles to fly LCY to DUB, you pay the 12,500 miles plus the PSC and the APD. You do not pay any surcharge/carrier charge/YQ/YR on top.

 

If you pay for a cash ticket, you pay the base fare plus the PSC and the APD. You do not pay any surcharge/carrier charge/YQ/YR.

 

This is why there are two fallacies in "I'd pay for the flight anyway to avoid paying BA's ridiculous fees on top of the AA miles":

1. "BA's ridiculous fees" are zero; and
   
2. Whether they were zero or non-zero, you'd pay the same if you were buying a cash ticket, so paying cash would not avoid the fees
   

But this is why redeeming Avios using the Reward Flight Saver fixed cash fee is such good value. Not only is the number of Avios required very small (4,500 or 4,000 Avios compared to 12,500 AA miles), but the airline is actually subsidising your redemption in cold hard cash: for LCY-DUB, the airline pays out £56.11 of true taxes, fees and charges (at today's rates) but only charges you a £17.50 cash element in addition to that small sum of Avios.

 

The same applies for LHR-DUB, only the numbers are different.

 

This is surely about as simple as it is possible to be.

It appears it can sell pretty much every economy fare class, except B and Y, as handbaggage/basic, which is pretty confusing. It looks as though there are datapoints that X fares do not have a handbaggage option, so that's good.

All of which demonstrates that, at least for BA, there is much more at play than just the first initial letter of a fare basis (aka "the bucket"). It's the specific rules of the multitude of fares within that bucket that are the operative issue.

Back to the question of baggage allowance, there are no "X fares" on BA. So there is no question of an award ticket "buying" an "X fare" that has no baggage allowance. Every award ticket redeemed using Avios has a baggage allowance included, and I haven't ever seen any suggestion that BA award tickets redeemed using AAdvantage miles are any different. So on this topic, the OP should be reassured: there is an included baggage allowance and normal oneworld additional baggage rules will apply.

 

On a wider basis, I don't see why there's anything unusual about (say) M class being used both for fares with a baggage allowance and fares without. Even before the advent of HBO fares, M class (or other classes) would be used to sell a variety of fares which could have different rules. So using M class to sell HBO fares simply adds more fares with different rules. You've always had to read the rules of the specific fare that you're buying if you want to know what you're getting for your money.

 

Some of this will become clearer in late March, when HBO fares will change from private to public and will appear in fare listings (for example on ExpertFlyer), and so will presumably start showing up in ITA searches for the cheapest fares.

If you fly from LCY to DUB on BA, there are the Passenger Service Charge and the Air Passenger Duty to pay. But there is no surcharge/carrier charge/YQ/YR.

 

If you redeem AA miles to fly LCY to DUB, you pay the 12,500 miles plus the PSC and the APD. You do not pay any surcharge/carrier charge/YQ/YR on top.

 

If you pay for a cash ticket, you pay the base fare plus the PSC and the APD. You do not pay any surcharge/carrier charge/YQ/YR.

Okay, so no YQ/YR on LCY-DUB, so the math is simplified. If the base fare is £27.00 (per ITA) and it takes 12,500 AA miles for the ticket, then that's a value of 0.2p (or roughly US$.003 - 3/10ths of a cent) per mile, which is close enough to zero for my purposes; in essence you're giving away your miles for nothing.

 

I apologi(s/z)e if the "ridiculous" line offended. BA and AA passing through YQ/YR is certainly not ridiculous from BA shareholders' perspectives. At least BA isn't calling them "fuel surcharges" any more, thanks to the US courts.

Okay, so no YQ/YR on LCY-DUB, so the math is simplified. If the base fare is £27.00 (per ITA) and it takes 12,500 AA miles for the ticket, then that's a value of 0.2p (or roughly US$.003 - 3/10ths of a cent) per mile, which is close enough to zero for my purposes; in essence you're giving away your miles for nothing.

And not just on LCY-DUB, but there are no such surcharges on any BA short-haul flights now.

 

If the point is that using AA miles for this trip is very poor value, when compared to paying for a cash ticket, then I entirely agree with you. But that has nothing to do with being able to avoid surcharges by paying for a cash ticket - you can't.

 

I apologi(s/z)e if the "ridiculous" line offended. BA and AA passing through YQ/YR is certainly not ridiculous from BA shareholders' perspectives. At least BA isn't calling them "fuel surcharges" any more, thanks to the US courts.

The problem with the "ridiculous" epithet is that it's the kind of unthinking knee-jerk insult that one would expect from posters who know nothing about the industry or the different choices made by airlines about how to do business, when they come across something they don't like and throw their toys out of their prams.

 

I don't like the surcharges any more than you do, especially since the way that they are applied has long since parted company with any structured approach to the issue. But for the vast majority of individual ticket buyers, these are completely immaterial. Most of the small minority to whom surcharges do make a difference should already know what they're letting themselves in for. I would be surprised if the existence of the surcharges doesn't have indirect benefits to those of us using award tickets, probably in the form of greater availability. In those circumstances, being gratuitously rude about something that one doesn't like is simply being childish.

 

It reminds me of the common complaint about BA's seat pre-allocation policy: "I bought a BA ticket this time because it was $1,000 cheaper than my usual airline. And then I discovered I had to pay $100 each way to pre-allocate a seat. That was a gross affront to my dignity. I should have been entitled to free seat pre-allocation by right."

"Gratuitously rude" is insulting but "childish" isn't? Oh please.

 

This is an internet bulletin board where opinions are supposed to be voiced. I'm not giving a deposition or speaking to a jury, y'know.

This is an internet bulletin board where opinions are supposed to be voiced.

I like to think that the regulars amongst us might value giving others accurate and up-to-date advice and information. But there we go.

Thanks to all for their input. My plan is to simply pay for the seats given I can check bags in without cost. i will have to look at the "fine print" and maybe even call BA to make sure I buy the right fare class to ensure bags are included as we will like both have 2 mid-sized bags.

 

I noticed a lot of the discussion above regarding BA fees. For whatever reason, I have noticed that when I try to book award travel on BA versus AA for the same award level, the fees on BA are always more and usually substantially more than an equivalent AA booking. For that reason, I go out of my way to avoid flights directly on BA. For example, in the LCY-DUB flight, the award travel fees came up to $160.00 which seems way our of wack for an hour flight.

 

Once again, thanks to all for their information! I haven't flown out of LCY for a long time and I am looking forward to the convenience of not heading to one of the other area airports.

 

BTW - thanks for the tip regarding the use of Amex card to transfer points. Unfortunately, I gave up my Amex card a long time ago.

Right, if booking using AA miles you will generally pay more in cash charges for flights on BA than for similar flights on AA. Unfortunately, and perhaps at least in part due to this disparity, availability is often significantly better on BA.

 

Handbag only fares are pretty obvious during the online booking of short haul on BA.com so you should be fine. Key for getting the extra baggage allowance is to have your AA number in there (assuming your OW sapphire is via AA). And be sure all companions for whom you need the baggage allowance are on the same reservation with the one world elite member.

My plan is to simply pay for the seats given I can check bags in without cost. i will have to look at the "fine print" and maybe even call BA to make sure I buy the right fare class to ensure bags are included as we will like both have 2 mid-sized bags.

The BA website will make it very clear when it gives you the options which one is a "hand baggage only" or "Basic" fare; and which one is a fare that includes checked baggage (aka a "Plus" fare). So there's not much fine print involved, and no need to worry about this.

 

I noticed a lot of the discussion above regarding BA fees. For whatever reason, I have noticed that when I try to book award travel on BA versus AA for the same award level, the fees on BA are always more and usually substantially more than an equivalent AA booking. For that reason, I go out of my way to avoid flights directly on BA. For example, in the LCY-DUB flight, the award travel fees came up to $160.00 which seems way our of wack for an hour flight.

If that's $80.00 for each of two people, then that is simply airport charges and government tax. If AA flew the route, that's exactly how much AA would charge you as well. The same is now true for any BA mainline short-haul route.

 

For completeness, at today's rates that's $61.30 for airport charges (aka Passenger Service Charge) and $18.50 for government tax (aka Air Passenger Duty) - total $79.80. With one exception, you pay these whether you redeem an award ticket or whether you buy a cash ticket.

 

As I said, the numbers are different if you fly from Heathrow. There the PSC is $27.50, so the cash element of an AA award booking should be $46.00 per person.

 

The exception is if you have Avios and redeem them for an award. For LCY-DUB, you would pay 4,500 Avios (or 4,000 on an off-peak day) plus $25.00 or thereabouts (if you are a US member). This is such good value on this route (I think that's been said already) that it might even be worth buying the Avios to do this. Such a ticket definitely has a checked bag included plus Sapphire privileges, and as I have said, there is no reason to think that an award ticket booked using AA miles is any different - although an AA award ticket is likely to be much poorer value and very possibly simply not worth doing.

Epilogue:

 

At the end of the day I ended up using AA points for a trip on BA. I made the mistake of waiting too long before going back on the web to buy my ticket. While I waited, the prices went up for the flight I wanted to take. I also considered CityJet as an alternative to BA, but my out of pocket expense would have been similar to BA as I need to have an additional bag checked and their tickets only include one bag. I would certainly consider CityJet again as they have good prices and included amenities for flights between London and Dublin.

 

My tardiness ended up costing me an extra $100+ all things considered. Not a huge deal, but a reminder not to wait when you see something reasonable. I also discovered that unlike AA, I can't buy the lowest cost BA ticket and check 2 bags free like I can on AA as a OneWorld Saphire.

 

Thanks to all once again for their ideas and thoughts!

Trip Experience:

 

I really liked London City as an airport option. We passed through check-in and security in no more than 20 minutes. The facility itself is somewhat tight in the morning with lots of morning business commuters, but that didn't keep us from finding space to sit by one of the gates.

 

The flights seemed to move really well with quick turns on the ground to keep you on schedule - I assume the airspace is not impacted to much by the other more busy London area airports. Also, the Docklands Light Railway provides an easy access solution if you are travelling light.

 

From an airline perspective, the BA agent was kind to me and didn't hit me up for money as one of my bags was a couple kilos over its limit. Maybe this was because of my one world status, but it was nice anyways not to be hassled. The Embraer 170 was comfortable and the crew put on a good service for our one hour flight to Dublin.

... I assume the airspace is not impacted to much by the other more busy London area airports.

It is, but not in ways that the average passenger would readily notice unless they were being really perceptive.

 

On departure, the aircraft almost always initially climbs to a relatively low altitude and then levels off. This keeps the aircraft below the airspace used by aircraft approaching Heathrow. It usually takes 5 or so minutes before the aircraft is clear of that airspace and can resume its climb. This can be a bit irritating if it means that amount of level flying through cloud, because that's often a bit bumpy, but the pilots can't do anything about it.

 

On arrival, aircraft are marshalled through points that (IIRC) are out over the North Sea, from which they have to fly specific routes to the airport. These routes are also designed to stay clear of (and beneath) LHR's airspace, and they have the consequence that they are longer than what might be designed for LCY in an ideal world.

 

But none of this detracts much from LCY as an airport - glad you liked it!

 

From an airline perspective, the BA agent was kind to me and didn't hit me up for money as one of my bags was a couple kilos over its limit. Maybe this was because of my one world status, but it was nice anyways not to be hassled.

If you're a oneworld Sapphire and you paid cash for your ticket, your allowance would have been 2 bags x 32 kg whether you were in economy or business class. The standard economy allowance is 1 bag x 23 kg, so that's the difference that Sapphire makes. It's a very welcome benefit.

It is, but not in ways that the average passenger would readily notice unless they were being really perceptive.

 

On departure, the aircraft almost always initially climbs to a relatively low altitude and then levels off. This keeps the aircraft below the airspace used by aircraft approaching Heathrow. It usually takes 5 or so minutes before the aircraft is clear of that airspace and can resume its climb. This can be a bit irritating if it means that amount of level flying through cloud, because that's often a bit bumpy, but the pilots can't do anything about it.

 

On arrival, aircraft are marshalled through points that (IIRC) are out over the North Sea, from which they have to fly specific routes to the airport. These routes are also designed to stay clear of (and beneath) LHR's airspace, and they have the consequence that they are longer than what might be designed for LCY in an ideal world.

 

But none of this detracts much from LCY as an airport - glad you liked it!

 

That is what I thought, the airspace between the various airports is separated so that operations can be somewhat independent most of the time.

 

Yes, I really liked the airport as an option for local/European travel. I would be curious how long it takes to clear immigration as an inbound passenger as a non-EU citizen. Something to try on another visit to London arriving from Europe.

 

 

If you're a oneworld Sapphire and you paid cash for your ticket, your allowance would have been 2 bags x 32 kg whether you were in economy or business class. The standard economy allowance is 1 bag x 23 kg, so that's the difference that Sapphire makes. It's a very welcome benefit.

 

Now it all makes sense. I didn't realize my limit was 32 kg as a Sapphire. Looking at the web, I thought my limit was 23 kg/bag and mine weighed close to 25 kg at the airport. You are correct that 32 kg is a great benefit these days even though my goal is to reduce the weight of my luggage next time I go on a cruise.

I would be curious how long it takes to clear immigration as an inbound passenger as a non-EU citizen.

As always, it depends on how long the queue is. On most of my LCY arrivals, the queues are pretty short and most passengers are using the EU/EEA streams. The non-EU queues that I've seen don't often seem to grow to more than about a dozen people, so I would have thought it unlikely that a non-EU passenger would have to queue for more than about 15 minutes. But there are of course times when everyone off a particular flight is unlucky; the physical layout of the corridor leading to immigration does mean that some flights can be luckier than others.