Greedy airlines

[Sargent_Schultz]

However, look at business travel where the employer pays for the airfare and the frequent flyer recoups the benefit. Uh oh. The ff is NOT paying for the upgrades etc. himself. What does the IRS think of that? Answer, they tried, unsuccessfully, a few years ago to tax those benefits. The issue was litigated and IRS lost, and after a series of appeals eventually gave up.

 

How is that different than the employer paying relocation expenses for an employee? These days, part of those expenses are now taxed as income.

 

I would think a simple change to the overly complex tax laws could change the tax status overnight.

[Globaliser]

And WHY oh WHY should I have to pay baggage fee's for 1 checked bag?

Why only one?

 

And, all other things being equal, if you had a choice between airline A which wants $200 for the ticket and $25 for the first checked bag, and airline B which wants $250 for the ticket with a free first bag, would you choose the latter?

 

If so, enquiring minds would like to know why.

[Globaliser]

I would think a simple change to the overly complex tax laws could change the tax status overnight.

But it wouldn't change the value of the perks: very small.

 

There are many countries around the world which could potentially seek to tax FF benefits. Very few countries try, and even fewer succeed in actually getting anything. That tells you something about the viability of your idea.

[Shorex]

And WHY oh WHY should I have to pay baggage fee's for 1 checked bag? That should be part of the ticket.

 

WHY oh WHY should you have to pay for a latte or glass of wine or a martini or tips on a cruise? It should be part of the ticket. Good news! You can buy a cruise on Silversea and NOT have to pay for any of those things. The price IS included in the ticket.

 

But hold on -- doesn't Silversea and the other inclusive lines charge WAY more than the mass market lines that "nickel and dime" you? Hmmm. There must be an analogy here somewhere. Pause for thought.

 

Eureka! To hold prices down, airlines must be moving towards user fees and a la carte pricing instead of being inclusive.

 

This strategy can be taken to the absurd as the example in Globalizer's signature -- but it's just a fact. Facts are very annoying. All the ranting, railing, and whining can't change the facts.

 

The good news is that you, as a consumer, have the power to take your business elsewhere. Isn't free enterprise wonderful?

[Sargent_Schultz]

But it wouldn't change the value of the perks: very small.

 

There are many countries around the world which could potentially seek to tax FF benefits. Very few countries try, and even fewer succeed in actually getting anything. That tells you something about the viability of your idea.

 

Why not? The legacy airlines think they can survive by nickle and diming the public. Why couldn't the government do the same to pay off some debt?

[Sargent_Schultz]

But hold on -- doesn't Silversea and the other inclusive lines charge WAY more than the mass market lines that "nickel and dime" you? Hmmm. There must be an analogy here somewhere. Pause for thought.

 

The good news is that you, as a consumer, have the power to take your business elsewhere. Isn't free enterprise wonderful?

 

Even Silversea offers only one class of service, as do most other cruise lines. The elitists who think they deserve more because they paid more than another passenger are dinosaurs who will be assimilated.

[fbgd]

Why couldn't the government do the same to pay off some debt?

 

Because administering it would cost far more than would be gained, besides miles and perks have such variable value it'd be a nightmare trying to establish some kind of baseline.

 

e.g. I could use 50,000 miles + taxes to fly US-UK roundtrip in coach. But how much is that ticket worth? At full fare it'd be several thousand dollars, at leisure traveler friendly fares the cost before taxes is probably $100. But since I don't like coach I might use them to upgrade my paid business class ticket to first class on that same route. Well my business class ticket cost me $4000 and the first class on that day might be $11,000. So those same miles are now worth $7000.

 

See what I mean?

 

WHY oh WHY should you have to pay for a latte or glass of wine or a martini or tips on a cruise? It should be part of the ticket. Good news! You can buy a cruise on Silversea and NOT have to pay for any of those things. The price IS included in the ticket.

 

But hold on -- doesn't Silversea and the other inclusive lines charge WAY more than the mass market lines that "nickel and dime" you? Hmmm. There must be an analogy here somewhere. Pause for thought.

 

Eureka! To hold prices down, airlines must be moving towards user fees and a la carte pricing instead of being inclusive.

 

This strategy can be taken to the absurd as the example in Globalizer's signature -- but it's just a fact. Facts are very annoying. All the ranting, railing, and whining can't change the facts.

 

The good news is that you, as a consumer, have the power to take your business elsewhere. Isn't free enterprise wonderful?

 

Come on! You're using perfectly logical analogies to justify a rant ;)

 

All you needed was a link to how to use apostrophes correctly and cruzegirl would be all set :D

[kenish]

The historic and current business savvy of airlines can be argued endlessly. When the day is done, "greed" is driven by shareholders expecting quarterly profits. If you have a stake in airlines through direct stock ownership, pension plan, mutal funds, etc. then you are driving it. Either divest your financial interests or write a letter to the airline saying you're OK with a quarterly loss in exchange for no baggage fees and hot meals on real china. Otherwise it's hypocritical.

[scottbee]

e.g. I could use 50,000 miles + taxes to fly US-UK roundtrip in coach. But how much is that ticket worth? At full fare it'd be several thousand dollars, at leisure traveler friendly fares the cost before taxes is probably $100. But since I don't like coach I might use them to upgrade my paid business class ticket to first class on that same route. Well my business class ticket cost me $4000 and the first class on that day might be $11,000. So those same miles are now worth $7000.

 

The fuel cost alone is around 5.5c/ASM, so your NY-London return ticket burns 6900 miles of fuel for about $380 in fuel alone. Typical airline total cost/ASMs are in the 11-18c/ASM range, so a return ticket to Europe really should cost around $1000

 

Of course you can nickel and dime, and then you end up with the situation we had in BUF, where a Colgan Air co-pilot makes $21/hour in right seat flying a 75 passenger Q400. That's FLYING hours (70-80 month), you don't get paid when you're not flying.

 

Personally I'm willing to pay a fair price for a fair product, just don't put the squeeze on me, because it's insulting. Making me pay for 'premium' food/coffee/wine w dinner etc is insulting, given what cruise lines are trying to sell themselves as. It looks like Azamara are going the other direction, and I do look forward to trying that out.

 

As for flying? Yes, give me options, but don't screw me. Airlines and Hotels these days add a bizzillion addons, (fuel surcharges, resort fees, checked luggage etc etc), so they can advertise a lower fare, and be the top of your list on your computer screen. Yep, the computer/internet world we live in brought it upon us. I hope that governments put an end to it, which they have to a great extent in the UK and Europe.

 

Good example; Air Canada's fuel surcharge for YYZ/Toronto-LHR/London is 80% of the total fuel cost (yes you dumb airline, you publish your fuel costs in your financials and hope we're stupid enough to not look it up). That's not a surcharge, it's a way of false advertising.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Because administering it would cost far more than would be gained, besides miles and perks have such variable value it'd be a nightmare trying to establish some kind of baseline.

 

e.g. I could use 50,000 miles + taxes to fly US-UK roundtrip in coach. But how much is that ticket worth? At full fare it'd be several thousand dollars, at leisure traveler friendly fares the cost before taxes is probably $100. But since I don't like coach I might use them to upgrade my paid business class ticket to first class on that same route. Well my business class ticket cost me $4000 and the first class on that day might be $11,000. So those same miles are now worth $7000.

 

See what I mean?

 

 

It all makes perfect sense to the elitist on the legacy airlines. They aren't nickle and dimed like the majority of passengers are.

[paul929207]

It all makes perfect sense to the elitist on the legacy airlines. They aren't nickle and dimed like the majority of passengers are.

Just curious, why is it elitist to fly frist class on the legacy lines? When I wrkd I fly FC all the time with free first class upgrades.

 

I guess anything better than the cheapest inside cabin is also elitist.

[fbgd]

Even Silversea offers only one class of service, as do most other cruise lines. The elitists who think they deserve more because they paid more than another passenger are dinosaurs who will be assimilated.

 

It all makes perfect sense to the elitist on the legacy airlines. They aren't nickle and dimed like the majority of passengers are.

 

Sounds like you'd do best to book a one way flight to the DPRK and just stay there.

 

Your principals remain intact, no cost for checking bags on international flights. Or is free luggage allowance now elitist? :confused::rolleyes:

[Globaliser]

The legacy airlines think they can survive by nickle and diming the public. Why couldn't the government do the same to pay off some debt?

The airlines make real money from those fees.

 

But governments would struggle to get any money out of trying to tax FF benefits. So it's not worth the hassle, not even to provide emotional satisfaction for the people who hate other people for flying more than they do.

The elitists who think they deserve more because they paid more than another passenger are dinosaurs who will be assimilated.

Those who pay more should not get any more in return? Now that's an interesting concept.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Sounds like you'd do best to book a one way flight to the DPRK and just stay there.

 

Your principals remain intact, no cost for checking bags on international flights. Or is free luggage allowance now elitist? :confused::rolleyes:

 

There are certain agreements in place for international flights that interfere with the legacy airlines nickle and diming tactics. Delta does charge $50 for the second checked bag for the majority of passengers to Europe.

[paul929207]

There are certain agreements in place for international flights that interfere with the legacy airlines nickle and diming tactics. Delta does charge $50 for the second checked bag for the majority of passengers.

Does that mean you can not fly to North Korea?

[Sargent_Schultz]

I guess anything better than the cheapest inside cabin is also elitist.

 

Those in the cheapest inside cabin eat the same food as those in a suite. They also have the same luggage allowance.

 

If you want butler service in your suite fine, but don't expect me to subsidize it.

[scottbee]

Originally Posted by scottbee

Actually SW (Air Namibia) have two types of aircraft in their small fleet, 737s and A340s, specifically;

2 A340-300

1 737-200

2 737-500

1 737-800

Or were you talking about WN (Southwest)?

 

And, AS flies 1 plane with several models - 737s. They have no need for pilots who can fly other kinds, nor the ability to maintain and service them.

uh gee. what do you think? if you think. :rolleyes:

 

which model 737 did alaska crash a decade or so ago? hint - it wasn't a 737.

uh gee. what do you think? if you think. :rolleyes:

which model 737 did alaska crash a decade or so ago? hint - it wasn't a 737.

 

Two things;

Firstly I was pointing out, that if you had any significant experience in the aviation industry, either as an elite passenger, or in airline operations, you wouldn't have referred to Southwest as SW, but rather as WN. I was merely establishing a base-line here.

 

Secondly, you were talking about current airline fleets (operates vs operated), so was I. Not what they operated in 1972, 1992, but now. Of course you could have got really picky and said that the AAG also operate DH4s and CR7s as part of their QX subsidiary, but I was talking about AS, also a subsidiary of the AAG.

 

Go ahead and defend WN, they've done an awful lot of things right, but they're running in a very limited environment. They only serve the lower 48 (unlike AS and every other major US airline), which allows them to avoid a lot of headaches like having a longer range model of aircraft, and it allows them to avoid dealing with international regulations.

[FlyerTalker]

Sounds like you'd do best to book a one way flight to the DPRK and just stay there.

What alliance does Air Koryo belong to?? :D

[FlyerTalker]

I find it subtly amusing.....the character of Sgt. Schultz on Hogan's Heroes was most famous for his line...."Please, I know nothing". And it gets proven again in this thread.

 

From your comment about getting WN to extend your Rapid Rewards credits, it's obvious that you're one of the Canyon Blue Kool-Aid drinkers.

 

I could go into a long discussion of how the consumer obsession with the lowest fare rather than the best value has driven the move to ala carte fees. The example of AA and MRTC/LRTC proved to the industry that that price drives airline ticket purchases more than probably any other product in general sale in the USA. Just look at everyone who posts here in Cruise Air asking for the "best" fare - when what they mean is "cheapest" fare. How people will endure a bad airline to save $10. This drive to the rock-bottom price has driven airlines to give them just what they want...a low base price for their flight. And the public gets what it has wrought.

 

So, Cruzegirl can rant about the bag charge, while she also demands the cheapest fare around. She never met an airline she didn't abuse. You can say the airlines are greedy, trolling for an argument. Well, I bit this once, but I'll just say -- they are businesses like any other, trying to survive in a difficult situation. If the entire industry went to a WN model, you'd find massive numbers of cities unserved by air service. Who would be flying into Minot, ND or Casper WY? I don't see WN going there. Why - because they cherry-pick routes. And rest on a currently underserved reputation for having the absolute lowest prices.

 

Now to subside and abide by 6rugrats advice.

[Shorex]

Now to subside and abide by 6rugrats advice.

 

Ditto. I'm outta here.

[Sargent_Schultz]

Two things;

Firstly I was pointing out, that if you had any significant experience in the aviation industry, either as an elite passenger, or in airline operations, you wouldn't have referred to Southwest as SW, but rather as WN. I was merely establishing a base-line here.

 

Secondly, you were talking about current airline fleets (operates vs operated), so was I. Not what they operated in 1972, 1992, but now. Of course you could have got really picky and said that the AAG also operate DH4s and CR7s as part of their QX subsidiary, but I was talking about AS, also a subsidiary of the AAG.

 

Go ahead and defend WN, they've done an awful lot of things right, but they're running in a very limited environment. They only serve the lower 48 (unlike AS and every other major US airline), which allows them to avoid a lot of headaches like having a longer range model of aircraft, and it allows them to avoid dealing with international regulations.

 

First - I do. I know. I like SW. Get over it.

 

Second - I mentioned I like AK. They are not so stubborn as Legacy airlines and have learned a lot from SW's model.

 

Third - Through the first 10 months of 2009, SW carried more total system and more domestic passengers than any other US airline. More than 50% more domestic passengers than 2nd place American. AK wasn't in the top 10. 737s are available with varying and sufficient range. SW expands on their time line, not yours.

 

 

 

None of your points justifies the nickle and diming of the majority of passengers by legacy airlines.

[Gardyloo]

Second - I mentioned I like AK. They are not so stubborn as Legacy airlines and have learned a lot from SW's model.

FWIW AK is Airasia, a low cost operator in Malaysia. AS is Alaska's symbol.

 

IMO AS is as much a legacy carrier at the rest, also living on a reputation for service gained years ago and allowed to atrophy since. You should familiarize yourself on AS' positions vis a vis Virgin America, and ask people in Juneau or Sitka how they feel about competition in the marketplace.

[fbgd]

Third - Through the first 10 months of 2009, SW carried more total system and more domestic passengers than any other US airline. More than 50% more domestic passengers than 2nd place American. AK wasn't in the top 10.

 

Your point being? I'm sure Walmart sell more than any other US retailer. Doesn't necessarily mean it's any good.

[Sargent_Schultz]

FWIW AK is Airasia, a low cost operator in Malaysia. AS is Alaska's symbol.

 

IMO AS is as much a legacy carrier at the rest, also living on a reputation for service gained years ago and allowed to atrophy since. You should familiarize yourself on AS' positions vis a vis Virgin America, and ask people in Juneau or Sitka how they feel about competition in the marketplace.

 

AK is the USPS abbreviation for Alaska and SW on any compass is Southwest. WN is 90 degrees off. I guess SW was taken when they were looking for a symbol.

 

It is amusing to me how much that seems to annoy some people.

[paul929207]

First - I do. I know. I like SW. Get over it.

 

Second - I mentioned I like AK. They are not so stubborn as Legacy airlines and have learned a lot from SW's model.

 

Third - Through the first 10 months of 2009, SW carried more total system and more domestic passengers than any other US airline. More than 50% more domestic passengers than 2nd place American. AK wasn't in the top 10. 737s are available with varying and sufficient range. SW expands on their time line, not yours.

 

 

 

None of your points justifies the nickle and diming of the majority of passengers by legacy airlines.

Isn't WN joining the "nickle and diming" group? I thought you now had to pay $10 extra to get a decent seat. Seems that is the begining of tacking on fees. If there is not enough complaints about this they will keep adding fees.