DOT Making it Harder for Able-Bodied to Book Accessible Cabins!

[Quampapetet]

This is great news!

 

Check out the new rules, which will go into effect in November:

 

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480b13912

 

Section 39.39 How do PVOs ensure that passengers with disabilities are

able to use accessible cabins?

 

The Department anticipates that the forthcoming Access Board

guidelines will address the scoping and dimensions of accessible cabins

on new or altered vessels. While this rule consequently does not

require vessels with overnight accommodations to have accessible

cabins, we recognize that cabins identified by PVOs as accessible do

exist on some vessels. This section concerns how PVOs would make sure

that passengers with disabilities actually are able to get those

accessible cabins. The Department recognizes that non-disabled

passengers, understanding that accessible cabins are somewhat more

roomy than other cabins in the same class of service, may sometimes

seek to reserve those cabins, making them unavailable to passengers

with disabilities.

The NPRM proposed a system in which a passenger requesting an

accessible cabin would be required, at the PVO's request, to present

documentation of the physical condition that necessitates use of an

accessible cabin, at which point their reservations would trump even

earlier reservations for an accessible cabin made by non-disabled

passengers, though no passengers would ever be ``bumped'' from the

voyage as a result. Some commenters objected to having to provide

medical documentation. Others said that passengers with disabilities

should be able to book an accessible cabin up to the day of sailing,

while other commenters stated that reservations for accessible cabins

should be made within a set time frame (i.e., 72 hours) before

departure.

In response to comments, the Department is deleting the proposed

requirement that passengers provide documentation of their disability

and revising the reservation requirements. Instead, the final rule

includes what we believe is a simpler system, in which accessible

cabins must be withheld from reservation until all cabins in that class

of service have been reserved. If a passenger with a disability

requests a remaining accessible cabin, then the

 

[[Page 38885]]

 

passenger with a disability gets that cabin. However, once all the

other, non-accessible cabins have been booked, the PVO may, if it

chooses, book the cabins for non-disabled passengers.

While the final rule does not require or permit medical

documentation for persons reserving accessible cabins because they have

a disability, PVOs have to ask persons seeking to reserve such a cabin

whether they have a disability that requires use of the accessibility

facilities provided in the cabin. In addition, PVOs may require a

written attestation from the passenger that her or she needs the

accessible features provided in the cabin. These provisions are modeled

on an approach that is sometimes used concerning reserving accessible

seating sports stadiums. PVOs must also investigate the potential

misuse of accessible cabins and can take action against abusers (e.g.,

a PVO may deny transportation to a non-disabled individual who books an

accessible cabin on the basis of a misrepresentation that the

individual has a disability).

The Department recognizes that some existing vessels may not have

accessible cabins in all classes of service. PVOs, however, cannot

properly impose costs on disabled passengers because vessels lack

accessible cabins in some classes of service. If a passenger with a

disability wants to travel in a less costly class of service, rather

than a more expensive class, but the PVO has chosen to make adequate

numbers of accessible cabins available only in more other expensive

classes of service, the PVO must make accessible cabins available to

passengers with disabilities at no more than the cost of the class of

service the passenger requests. Under a nondiscrimination rule,

disabled passengers, like all other passengers, should be able to

purchase accommodations they can use at a price they are willing to

pay.

 

Also, there are three items they are seeking comment on, including allowing emotional support dogs (which are pets for ppl with mental disabilities, they are not service dogs and are not trained to be in public spaces or to do any tasks, it is just their presence that makes the person feel better) onboard; the treatment of mobility aids that are wheelchairs and other power-driven mobility devices; and the relationship between the DOT and the ADA rules.

[TrikeRider]

Thank you for posting this. I hope this makes an impact that is noticed.

[TracieABD]

I am really hoping that this will help the issue of HC cabins for people who need them in order to travel on a cruise ship.:)

[PennyAgain]

thanks for posting. I really hope this works.

[kjunea]

Thanks for posting!

[SeattleCruiselover]

This is great news!

 

Check out the new rules, which will go into effect in November:

 

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480b13912

 

 

 

Also, there are three items they are seeking comment on, including allowing emotional support dogs (which are pets for ppl with mental disabilities, they are not service dogs and are not trained to be in public spaces or to do any tasks, it is just their presence that makes the person feel better) onboard; the treatment of mobility aids that are wheelchairs and other power-driven mobility devices; and the relationship between the DOT and the ADA rules.

 

Unfortunately, if you read it closely, this applies only to ferries like the Alaska Marine Highway that carry pax overnight, and privately owned/operated vessels like yachts for hire. The US Government has no jurisdiction whatsoever over foreign flagged cruise lines (though I guess that NCLA, American Cruise Lines, and the other American flagged lines might fall under these regs). While it would be nice if they would follow through just out of the goodness of their hearts, I don't see the majors doing this any time soon.

[Quampapetet]

Unfortunately, if you read it closely, this applies only to ferries like the Alaska Marine Highway that carry pax overnight, and privately owned/operated vessels like yachts for hire. The US Government has no jurisdiction whatsoever over foreign flagged cruise lines (though I guess that NCLA, American Cruise Lines, and the other American flagged lines might fall under these regs). While it would be nice if they would follow through just out of the goodness of their hearts, I don't see the majors doing this any time soon.

 

They do have jurisdiction when the ships are leaving from U.S. ports. Read the document - it says how int'l laws give the U.S. the right to govern the ships. Just like foreign-flagged airlines have to comply with the DOT's Air Carrier Access Act (the disability act for flying) when the flight is leaving from the U.S. or going to the U.S.

 

Several years ago (at least) the U.S. courts agreed that the foreign-flagged cruise ships are under the ADA. Cruise ships fall under both the DOT and DOJ (ADA).

 

Here are some quotes from the new regulations:

 

Virtually all cruise ships serving U.S. ports are foreign-flag

vessels. International law clearly allows the U.S. to exercise

jurisdiction over foreign-flag vessels while they are in U.S. ports,

subject to treaty obligations. A State has complete sovereignty over

its internal waters, including ports. Therefore, once a commercial

ship voluntarily enters a port, it becomes subject to the

jurisdiction of the coastal State. In addition, a State may

condition the entry of a foreign ship into its internal waters or

ports on compliance with its laws and regulations. The United States

thus appears to have jurisdiction to apply ADA requirements to

foreign-flag cruise ships that call in U.S. ports.

 

The U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the Department's long-held view that

the ADA covers passenger vessels, specifically including foreign-flag

cruise ships. In Spector et al. v. Norwegian Cruise Lines, 545 U.S. 119

(2005), the Court held that cruise ships are ``public accommodations''

that provide ``specified public transportation'' within the meaning of

the ADA. The Court said that, while there may be some limitations on

the coverage of the ADA to matters purely concerning the internal

affairs of a foreign-flag vessel, matters concerning the ship

operators' policies and conditions relating to transportation of

passengers with disabilities (e.g., higher fares or surcharges for

disabled passengers,

 

[[Page 38879]]

 

waivers of medical liability, requirements for attendants) had nothing

to do with a ship's internal affairs. Such matters, then, are clearly

subject to ADA jurisdiction. It is issues of this kind that are the

focus of this final rule.

 

Section 39.1 What is the purpose of this Part?

 

This section briefly states the nondiscrimination-related purposes

of the rule and specifies that nondiscrimination requirements apply to

operators of foreign-flag as well as U.S. vessels.

 

Section 39.5 To whom do the provisions of this Part apply?

 

The Department is applying the provisions of this Part to all

passenger vessels, regardless of size. There are three major exceptions

to this general coverage. First, while all U.S.-flagged vessels would

be covered, coverage of foreign-flag vessels would be limited to those

that pick up or discharge passengers in the U.S. For example, suppose a

foreign-flag cruise PVO operates two ships. One of them sails only

among ports in Europe. Another picks up passengers in Miami and cruises

to several Caribbean ports. The latter would be covered and the former

would not. Several commenters recommended for the rule to apply to all

domestic and foreign cruise ships, including river cruise ships,

regardless of whether the ships picks up passengers in the U.S. The

Cruise Lines International Association, Inc. disagreed, and commented

that the rules should not cover foreign flag cruise ships that do not

embark, disembark, or stop at any U.S. ports because Congress has not

made a ``clear statement'' of intent that the ADA apply

extraterritorially. This rule covers only those vessels that pick up or

discharge passengers in the U.S.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Quampapetet

[SeattleCruiselover]

They do have jurisdiction when the ships are leaving from U.S. ports. Read the document - it says how int'l laws give the U.S. the right to govern the ships. Just like foreign-flagged airlines have to comply with the DOT's Air Carrier Access Act (the disability act for flying) when the flight is leaving from the U.S. or going to the U.S.

 

Several years ago (at least) the U.S. courts agreed that the foreign-flagged cruise ships are under the ADA. Cruise ships fall under both the DOT and DOJ (ADA).

 

Here are some quotes from the new regulations:

 

It's not that clear, actually. I think they will ultimately fall back on the Supreme Court's ruling in Spector vs NCL in 2005. Cliff's notes version:

 

The issue then becomes: To what extent does the ADA apply? Here, the Court is further divided. The controlling opinion of three Justices – Kennedy for a plurality, joined by Stevens and Souter – holds that Title III applies except in all likelihood to the extent the statute would otherwise require “permanent,” “significant,” “structural” changes to the “basic ship design and construction.” That opinion is controlling because it is the narrowest holding: Justice Thomas would not apply the statute to require any structural changes and, as noted, the three Justices dissenting in full would not apply the statute at all. By contrast, two concurring Justices – Justice Ginsburg, joined by Justice Breyer – would hold that Title III applies except to the extent that the statute imposes requirements that conflict with treaty obligations.

 

The decision is a significant, although not total, victory for persons with disabilities. Cruise lines that do not want to incur the costs of making their ships fully accessible can take comfort that they may not need to make the most significant, structural changes to their ships that the statute otherwise would require.

 

Probably the biggest key findings were:

 

Kennedy noted that cruise lines need not comply with Title III of the ADA to the extent it creates too much international discord or disruption of a ship's internal affairs, under a provision of the statute that calls only for "readily achievable" modifications.

 

"It is likely that under a proper interpretation of 'readily achievable' Title III would impose no requirements that interfere with the internal affairs of foreign-flag cruise ships," Kennedy wrote, in sending the case back to lower court to determine what is ultimately required of cruise lines.

 

Justice Clarence Thomas provided the sixth vote holding that the ADA applies. But he joined the dissenters in saying the actual modifications required under the federal law did not extend to changes to a ship's "physical structure."

 

 

They'll play the it will interfere with the internal policies and procedures of the ship (i.e. internal affairs) card and, thus, are not germane or applicable to foreign flagged vessels. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I used to work for a major foreign flagged cruise line in Seattle (Princess) and I know how they think.

Edited July 9, 2010 by SeattleCruiselover

[Quampapetet]

It's not that clear, actually. I think they will ultimately fall back on the Supreme Court's ruling in Spector vs NCL in 2005. Cliff's notes version:

 

 

 

Probably the biggest key findings were:

 

 

 

They'll play the it will interfere with the internal policies and procedures of the ship (i.e. internal affairs) card and, thus, are not germane or applicable to foreign flagged vessels. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I used to work for a major foreign flagged cruise line in Seattle (Princess) and I know how they think.

 

If you read the new regulations, you will see this all discussed. These changes do not interfere to any international affairs nor do they make any physical changes to the ships. They are indeed valid. The DOT didn't just make these up and hope cruiselines would just adhere to them, they went over everything with the international laws and associations and all that. Yes, the document is long, but you can download a PDF version of it to read it offline in segments, if you wish.

[Queenie2]

It should be noted that this is technically a proposed rule. By that I mean that it is still open to comment, and when it is still open for comment, the final rule can and usually does change. I expect there will be a number of comments from the cruise lines and their reps, saying that this is too "costly" for them. IT will be interesting to see what the final rule looks like. I do know that the Passenger Vessel Committee (who is still trying to sort out the ADAAG) has leaned towards the cruise lines, and granted them many concessions (at least in the proposed rules). Anyway, if this turns out to be a hot-button issue, the DOT may well delay the implementation and open it all to more discussion, just like they did with the ADAAG fro Passenger Vessels (and God knows when we will ever see those final rules).

 

It's a very SLOW process.

 

On the plus side, it looks like the DOJwill take advantage of the publicity stemmeing from the 20th annivesary of the ADA, and actually release their updated ADAAG later this month. Time will tell.

 

But I do think we are moving in a positive direction.

 

Candy

[Quampapetet]

Well, the good thing is that they already had the commenting period for most of the stuff in this rule when it was an actual proposed rule, so those things likely won't change from this final rule. They are only taking comments on three things: Emotional Support Dogs, electric mobility devices, and the relationship of DOT vs. DOJ for ship regulations. They aren't taking comments on the part about accessible cabins (or any other parts other than the three things I just listed), so that should be set in stone and go into law as planned on November 3rd.

 

That would be a good idea for the DOJ to take advantage of the ADA anniversary! It was too bad the changes they had wanted to make before didn't get made in time before the last administration ended and the new administration put everything on hold for this long.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Quampapetet

[DonnasMom&Dad]

This is great news!

 

Check out the new rules, which will go into effect in November:

 

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Regs/home.html#documentDetail?R=0900006480b13912

 

 

 

Also, there are three items they are seeking comment on, including allowing emotional support dogs (which are pets for ppl with mental disabilities, they are not service dogs and are not trained to be in public spaces or to do any tasks, it is just their presence that makes the person feel better) onboard; the treatment of mobility aids that are wheelchairs and other power-driven mobility devices; and the relationship between the DOT and the ADA rules.

 

Good news for HC assessable passengers:

 

I talked to my TA, who in turn contacted "Princess", and was informed that, this is the way it will be, at least from the effective date.

 

Happy Cruising. :) :o

 

Cato.

 

 

Passed Cruises !

 

First cruise - Coral Princess, 19 November 2008, 10 day Panama Canal, FLL to ACA

Second cruise - Coral Princess, 15 May 2009, 3 day Repositioning, Los Angeles to Vancouver.

Third cruise - Sapphire Princess, 25 November 2009? 7 day Mexican Riviera.

Fourth cruise - Golden Princes, 12 November 2010, 7 day Alaska. (Golden Anniversary Cruise)

 

Future & Hopeful Cruises !

( Already booked )

 

Fifth & (hopefully Platinum member cruise), Island Princess, 04 October 2010, Vancouver -LA

Repositioning .

Sixth cruise - Sapphire Princess, 05 January 2011, 10 day Mexican Riviera. LA to LA.

Seventh cruise - Emerald Princess, 04 June 2011, 11 day Baltic, Copenhagen return.

[TrikeRider]

Cate - that is great news regarding Princess. I hope to hear the same from all the cruise lines.

[Quampapetet]

Good to hear that the cruise lines are already starting to understand!

[englishgal]

P&O cruises have a form that has to be filled in by anyone wanting to book a disabled cabin. They are very strict and one has to be more or less a full time wheelchair user to get one of their adapted cabins. I have cruised with them and the cabins are excellent, but there is not enough of them, so we have to book very early to get one, especially if you want a balcony.

[Quampapetet]

That's good to hear, Englishgal!

[ms simba]

I will be on a December cruise with Carnival. I will be using an electric scooter due to degenerative arthritis in my ankle and a Baker's cyst in my knee. I have filled out the Special Needs form for Carnival and am booked in a handicapped cabin.

 

Do I now have to go to the doctor and get a note from him commenting on my disability?

[Quampapetet]

No, a doctor's letter is not required or allowed:

 

While the final rule does not require or permit medical

documentation for persons reserving accessible cabins because they have

a disability, PVOs have to ask persons seeking to reserve such a cabin

whether they have a disability that requires use of the accessibility

facilities provided in the cabin. In addition, PVOs may require a

written attestation from the passenger that her or she needs the

accessible features provided in the cabin.

 

You have done what is needed by sending in the forms, so are good to go! :) Have a wonderful cruise!!

[Charleyann]

I will be on a December cruise with Carnival. I will be using an electric scooter due to degenerative arthritis in my ankle and a Baker's cyst in my knee. I have filled out the Special Needs form for Carnival and am booked in a handicapped cabin.

 

Do I now have to go to the doctor and get a note from him commenting on my disability?

 

Last year I had to fill in the form and have the doctor sign !

 

Booked yesterday on the Disney Dream and they said I won;t need to this year as I areadly sent it in last year with dctors signature. Happy about that...It cost m,oney to get a doctor to sign !!!!

[lamashermosa]

This is NOT TRUE. It's easy to book a HC room if you are NOT HC. Yes, the cruise company may read you an attestation (only so that the cruise company can confirm that they did their part).  Nothing beyond that is ever checked or DONE to kick anyone non-HC out of a HC room when a true HC passenger is in need of that room and wasn't able to get it because of the abusive, selfish people who only thought of themselves needing the "extra space." If you're not a HC person pay for a suite, surely you'll get "extra space there."

 

This happened to me (Yes, I'm a HC person) on the Pacific Princess in 4/17. I had attempted to book a HC room and was told none were available. Imagine my shock when another passenger said that she questioned her neighbors about how they got their HC room. Their response was, "We don't know... and we DON'T care! We LOVE it!!!" Bringing this to Princess' attention onboard I was told they would keep their cabin and YES, Princess KNEW they weren't HC and assigned them that cabin.

 

Celebrity Constellation, I tried to book a HC room for the Presidential cruise 3/18, and was told cabin was booked. What a shock to see a couple, who were NOT disabled, I questioned them. Upon my return I called Celebrity and was told a "MAN" was sailing in that cabin alone. What a bunch of liars at Celebrity trying to cover up.

 

Celebrity Constellation, I tried to book a HC room for the 11/18 cruise and was told the HC room had a TWO (2) week courtesy hold by other passengers! WOW, never in my life have I ever heard of such a long "courtesy hold." The two passengers who sailed in this cabin (7137) were from India and they were NOT handicapped.

 

The HC cabin abuse is STILL happening. There's nobody to investigate or do anything about it. Better laws need to be written with severe cruise line company penalties and full investigation involved. If any cruise ship is carrying more than 50% Americans onboard, the same rules should apply outside of the USA ports. It shouldn't be up to the cruise lines to sell the HC cabin to anyone non HC compliant,  just to make a quick buck and ignore the HC. I would venture to say there are plenty of HC passengers who would love to have a HC cabin to sail in, even in a guarantee basis time frame. Best way to document a valid HC is to have a licensed doctor directly fax their letter into the cruise company for each sailing, to be sure the person/s are still HC. It could discourage selfish non-HC people from attempting to book a HC cabin, and a doctor to be unethical if his credentials are put at risk.

[1025cruise]

And you felt the need to dig up an 8 year old thread for your rant?

[jlp20]

Almost all cruise lines sail under foreign flags. ADA laws do not apply to them. They voluntarily construct cabins to meet the code for marketing purposes. 

[GUT2407]

On 12/5/2018 at 1:19 AM, 1025cruise said:

And you felt the need to dig up an 8 year old thread for your rant?

No they probably used the search function, after all had they started a new thread they’d have been told ‘do a search”.

 

 

[Bloodgem]

On 12/4/2018 at 10:49 AM, lamashermosa said:

The HC cabin abuse is STILL happening. There's nobody to investigate or do anything about it. Better laws need to be written with severe cruise line company penalties and full investigation involved. If any cruise ship is carrying more than 50% Americans onboard, the same rules should apply outside of the USA ports. It shouldn't be up to the cruise lines to sell the HC cabin to anyone non HC compliant,  just to make a quick buck and ignore the HC. I would venture to say there are plenty of HC passengers who would love to have a HC cabin to sail in, even in a guarantee basis time frame. Best way to document a valid HC is to have a licensed doctor directly fax their letter into the cruise company for each sailing, to be sure the person/s are still HC. It could discourage selfish non-HC people from attempting to book a HC cabin, and a doctor to be unethical if his credentials are put at risk.

 

I'm confused.

From other threads, on CC,  I have been given the impression that it is the Americans who object to providing medical evidence to prove their eligibility for a HC cabin.

But you want everyone in a HC cabin to provide a doctor's letter for every cruise, where the majority of the passengers are American. 

 

 

[chengkp75]

12 hours ago, jlp20 said:

Almost all cruise lines sail under foreign flags. ADA laws do not apply to them. They voluntarily construct cabins to meet the code for marketing purposes. 

Actually, the ADA does apply to foreign flag cruise ships, that home port out of the US.  This is because the ships are essentially "selling" accommodations in the US, and must meet certain aspects of the ADA.  The ships are not required to have a set number of accessible cabins, unlike US hotels, even despite the DOJ settlement with Carnival a couple years ago, but as someone else pointed out, they voluntarily designate some cabins as accessible, and these must meet the ADA requirements.  However, the SCOTUS has ruled, in Spector v. NCL, that the ADA does not apply to foreign flag cruise ships, when it comes to the ship's "internal policies and procedures".  The documentation of medical need for an accessible cabin falls under this umbrella of "internal policies", and even the DOT rulings mentioned in the beginning of this thread are not completely binding.

 

As for the poster who resurrected this thread, SCOTUS ruled that unless Congress amends the ADA to specifically mention foreign flag cruise ships, then the ADA does not fully apply.  This ruling was made in 2004, and Congress has not seen fit to make any effort to amend the ADA over the last 14 years, so I doubt it will ever happen.  And, as far as applying "the same rules outside of US ports", that just shows the proclivity of US citizens to believe that their laws do, or should, apply to them everywhere in the world, and that is what makes the rest of the world hate us.  If you want full protection of US laws, then vote with your wallet, and only sail on US flag cruise ships, or petition Congress to make all ships that home port in the US be US flag.  Otherwise, realize that the rest of the world does not follow US laws, and "when in Rome" Rome's laws apply.