NCL Suffers By Comparison .....

[sjbdtz]

Can you please provide some reference to your "triple the purchasing power of the dollar"? or did you just make up the number?

 

:D:D

 

Below are some additonal points to consider other than a simplistic statement that really lacks any depth. This information was obtained

@ http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/

 

 

 

The "real" price of gasoline: Gasoline cost 27 cents a gallon in 1949 compared to around $3.50 today.* How has the relative cost of buying gas changed over the last 61 years? Presented here are two tables computing the annual "real" cost using our seven indicators, one in 2009 dollars, and the other in 1949 dollars. While the two tables show the same trends, they do give a different perspective.

 

Using the 2009 table and the CPI and the GDP deflator, we see that gasoline was quite expensive in 1980 and 1981 and the cheapest in 1998 and 1999. Today, the real price using these two measures is higher than the period at the beginning of the 1980s.

 

By looking at the share of the Consumer Bundle and GDP per capita, the story is a bit different. In 1981, a gallon of gas took as much out of what the average consumer spent as $3.90 does in 2009. And as a share of GDP per capita, gas was even more expensive in those earlier days with it at over $4.60 in 1980 and more expensive in the earlier years. Both wage indexes show the prices then and now are similar.

 

The other table tells the story in a different way. Let us look at relative cost to a worker to fill up using 1949 dollars. That year the 27 cents it cost for a gallon of gas, took a certain share of the worker's wage. The interesting question is, has the cost as a share or percent of the worker's wage increased or decreased over time? The table shows that for the two wage rates and price of gasoline in other years, this cost has fallen. Since wages have increased faster than the price of gasoline, by 2009 an unskilled worker spends less than two-thirds as much, as a percent of wage, for a gallon of gasoline than the 1949 worker. For a production worker it is only half. The table shows that the $2.36 a worker paid in 2009 would be comparable to only 13 to 16 cents (in 1949 prices "share" of the wage.

 

When we use the GDP per capita, the cost has fallen faster. Looking at the table shows that a gallon of gasoline costs around 11 cents a gallon (in 1949 prices) if measured as a "share" of the GDP per capita. This is because in 1949, 27 cents was .015% of per capita GDP, while in 2007, $2.36 was .006%.

 

Finally, comparing its cost as a share of GDP, we see that in 1949 prices, it is about 4 cents. This means that a gallon gasoline was six times larger as a share of output in 1949 than it is today.

 

* The nominal price of gasoline can be class="content" found at found at http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/petro.html and http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pri_gnd_dcus_nus_a.htm For the tables used here, I used the price of a gallon of leaded regular from 1949 to 1976, the average of the price of leaded regular and unleaded regular from 1977 to 1990 and the price of unleaded regular from 1991 to 2009.

 

 

Wow, that's a lot of reading to just say "I agree, gas cost less then than it does now".

 

 

Isn't this conversation heading off-topic now?

[rideev]

I know that I could figure out approximately how many times per day I use the washroom and calculate how much extra it will cost in bathroom fees and arrange to have the correct number of dimes or quarters with me before leaving home. Or, I could just exercise self-control, cross my legs, and refuse to use the toilet more than once a day.:rolleyes: Not my idea of a pleasant or relaxed vacation either way.

 

That's one reason the balcony cabins are important to have. Especially those on the higher decks:D

[fergusonvt]

That's one reason the balcony cabins are important to have. Especially those on the higher decks:D

 

Yeah but that only works if you are a man :)

[2inTul]

Yeah but that only works if you are a man :)

 

You obviously haven't met some of the women I know! :eek: :D

[Mr. Luckytoo]

I think it's really too bad that so many people apparently have so little control over their spending decisions, or lack the ability to create and follow a budget. My 12 year old has already learned the lesson that if you spend money on one thing, you won't have it available to spend on something else. When we travel, she has a budget and has never spent all of it (and not because we buy things for her instead). She and I have had many a discussion about a purchase she is considering, and it always comes down to the concept of opportunity cost - what she may have to forego if she spends the money. We are all capable of this thought process, and 'blaming' marketers for doing their best to sell their product does not actually absolve us of the responsibility to make our own spending decisions.

 

Ahhhh the voice of reason and restraint....Preach it Canadian....AMEN! :D

[Mr. Luckytoo]

Face it !! The good old days are no longer here.

 

Yes and no.

 

If you were a 1st class passenger on the Titanic and used to that level of service then you may feel that way.

 

If on the other hand you were a 3rd class passenger in steerage then today's cruising is an upgrade.

 

It all depends on where you fall on that 'scale'

 

BTW certain cruiselines STILL have the all-inclusiveness - Amazara and Cunard. The question is this - are you willing to pay for it?

[Mr. Luckytoo]

Wow, that's a lot of reading to just say "I agree, gas cost less then than it does now".

 

Stephen and I actually agree on something!!!! :cool:

[gottahavefun]

I was wondering why only the cruise lines are being accused of "false advertising"? Sure they post a price of 499.00 and when it's all said and done it costs twice that. But that's true of almost everything.

 

1)Watch a car add. They adverstise a 12,000.00 car. You get to the dealership and it 18000.00 by the time you get one becasue you wanted power windows or air conditioning.

2)You go to the big chain resturants and the advertise 2 meals for 20.00.By the time you're done it's double because you got drinks or desert or whatever.

3)And don't even get me started on the cell phone bill(advertised at 69.99 per month and I pay bout 100.00 a month after taxes and such..) BUT I knew that when I signed up.It amazes me how many people sign up or buy something without reading the contract they signed.

4)Businesses stay in business by making money. It's a simple fact of life.

Remember the old addage "if a deal looks to good to be true, it usually is." You have to know that it costs alot of money to keep these ships(with staff,food,booze,power,linens,etc...)going. And if they don't sail full, it costs even more.

 

So of course they are going show the lowest price first and work their way up. I know what I can afford and if the stating price is out of my range, I'm not even gonna look at the cruise. BUT if the price IS in my range well then with alot planning and a little saving, it's a-crusin' I go!!:D

 

OK gonna step off my soapbox now.

[newmexicoNita]

I am again stumped as to when these 'good old days' were when everything was included in cruises...

 

Sure, when I started cruising in 1975, much of what was available on board was included - but the reality is that there wasn't much available!! As I continued to cruise, there were changes, and gradually the industry got to where it is now, and interestingly enough, with the exception of soda, as far as I can tell, EVERYTHING that was included on that cruise in 1975 is still included when I cruise today - as well as much, much more. In addition, there are also a number of things available today that I can choose to pay for if I want to.

 

I think it's really too bad that so many people apparently have so little control over their spending decisions, or lack the ability to create and follow a budget. My 12 year old has already learned the lesson that if you spend money on one thing, you won't have it available to spend on something else. When we travel, she has a budget and has never spent all of it (and not because we buy things for her instead). She and I have had many a discussion about a purchase she is considering, and it always comes down to the concept of opportunity cost - what she may have to forego if she spends the money. We are all capable of this thought process, and 'blaming' marketers for doing their best to sell their product does not actually absolve us of the responsibility to make our own spending decisions.

 

Someone raised a question about whether anyone could really plan in advance what they were going to spend, and I can tell you that for my family, we have never exceeded my tentative budget by more than $150 (which is within predetermined allowable limits). We decide in advance what surcharge activities we intend to experience and we're aware of the service charges; other than that, the only thing we ever spend money on are alcohol and the occasional souvenir (always keeping in mind those 'allowable limits'). I have no idea what people are spending so much money on that they simply cannot plan for in advance, or keep within a preplanned limit. Do the people who have so much difficulty staying within their budget on cruises also have difficulty paying their bills at home? It's no different; a budget is a budget, and choosing to spend money on a restaurant at home when you've got perfectly good food in your own kitchen is no different than making the same decision on a cruise ship when there are numerous included options for the same meal.

 

Sorry for the rant, but the concept that marketers are responsible for people spending when they shouldn't is - in my opinion - bs. If you can't afford it, YOU know that and the marketers don't, so YOU are the one that has to say 'no'. I guess for these individuals, if someone put together a really smooth package advertising the merits of flinging oneself from a structure spanning a river, they would be helpless to resist? No matter how pretty someone makes it sound, it's still jumping off a bridge, and you know what your mom used to say about that. :cool::p

 

Of course you and I certainly agree on this. I will add, yes, there are a few things that used to be included that are no longer, but there are many things now, like you mentioned that we didn't have in the past: Buffets, movies, TVs in the cabins, (for years there were no TVs in cabins) more than one place to dine that is still free. It used to be 1 dining room, maybe a snack bar outside and on a few ships a small buffet, but nothing like we now have. Threre were not as many spa charges, but I wonder how many remember the spas of years past? No, T pools, no saunas, a hand full of classes, mabye a couple of bikes, and the pool areas had one small pool, not 2 or 3 like now. There were no kids activities. The gift shops were a joke and the shows were equally a joke.

 

About the only thing I can think of that was available might have been soft drinks (not on all lines, by anymeans) and better juice selections.

 

Like you I am at a loss as to what was offered that isn't anymore?

 

Nita

[newmexicoNita]

I think some of you are taking your Friday night frustration out on others. If you don't care to cruise anymore, don't. It's still the most affordable vacation we can find. The food if good, the staff is friendly, the ships are clean. If I lived closer to Miami I'd be cruising more. :)

 

well said, for us, just getting to a port is a majoy ordeal. I would love to hop on a ship every few months for a 3 or 4 day cruise, but we have to settle for once or twice a year.

 

NIta

[Cruise_More_Often]

One thing offered today that wasn't available in cruising in the "good old days" -- cabins with balconies.

[SPMorrissey]

When did the Yankees fire Joe Giardi because he was at the game last night.

I was hoping for a return of Sweet Lou.

[sunshine 229]

That's one reason the balcony cabins are important to have. Especially those on the higher decks:D

 

 

Finally, someone with a sense of humour! Hooray!

[sottovoce]

I was wondering why only the cruise lines are being accused of "false advertising"? Sure they post a price of 499.00 and when it's all said and done it costs twice that. But that's true of almost everything.

Right. I really don't understand what this flap is about. You are told what the port charges and government taxes are before you book, so that's no late surprise. If that makes the total amount too much for your wallet, simply say "no thanks." Don't complain after you sign the credit card receipt.

 

You typically pay between $80 and $150 per day for your cruise fare (including all fees and taxes; more in a high-end suite), so the $12 per day service charge is no more than 15% of the cruise fare. When you walk into a restaurant you expect to pay about that--and perhaps a few per cent more--in a gratuity. So what's the big deal? Does the restaurant put a note on the bottom of the menu that says: "Warning: You'll be expected to leave 15-20% of your total bill as a gratuity for your server. State and local taxes will be added to your total. Menu prices do not reflect the bottom-line amount you will end up paying for your meal?" Of course not.

[swedish weave]

Right. I really don't understand what this flap is about. You are told what the port charges and government taxes are before you book, so that's no late surprise. If that makes the total amount too much for your wallet, simply say "no thanks." Don't complain after you sign the credit card receipt.

 

You typically pay between $80 and $150 per day for your cruise fare (including all fees and taxes; more in a high-end suite), so the $12 per day service charge is no more than 15% of the cruise fare. When you walk into a restaurant you expect to pay about that--and perhaps a few per cent more--in a gratuity. So what's the big deal? Does the restaurant put a note on the bottom of the menu that says: "Warning: You'll be expected to leave 15-20% of your total bill as a gratuity for your server. State and local taxes will be added to your total. Menu prices do not reflect the bottom-line amount you will end up paying for your meal?" Of course not.

 

Also, if you are a large group, the gratuity is added to your bill.

[sunshine 229]

I was wondering why only the cruise lines are being accused of "false advertising"? Sure they post a price of 499.00 and when it's all said and done it costs twice that. But that's true of almost everything.

 

1)Watch a car add. They adverstise a 12,000.00 car. You get to the dealership and it 18000.00 by the time you get one becasue you wanted power windows or air conditioning.

2)You go to the big chain resturants and the advertise 2 meals for 20.00.By the time you're done it's double because you got drinks or desert or whatever.

3)And don't even get me started on the cell phone bill(advertised at 69.99 per month and I pay bout 100.00 a month after taxes and such..) BUT I knew that when I signed up.It amazes me how many people sign up or buy something without reading the contract they signed.

4)Businesses stay in business by making money. It's a simple fact of life.

Remember the old addage "if a deal looks to good to be true, it usually is." You have to know that it costs alot of money to keep these ships(with staff,food,booze,power,linens,etc...)going. And if they don't sail full, it costs even more.

 

So of course they are going show the lowest price first and work their way up. I know what I can afford and if the stating price is out of my range, I'm not even gonna look at the cruise. BUT if the price IS in my range well then with alot planning and a little saving, it's a-crusin' I go!!:D

 

OK gonna step off my soapbox now.

 

 

Could you please point out to me the post where anyone accused the cruiselines of false advertising? I must have missed that post. I did see some posts where people commented that the cruiselines do business in a different way these days than they used to, or that they pushed harder to sell things but I can't find the one accusing them of false advertising.

 

Sorry for the rant, but the concept that marketers are responsible for people spending when they shouldn't is - in my opinion - bs. If you can't afford it, YOU know that and the marketers don't, so YOU are the one that has to say 'no'. I guess for these individuals, if someone put together a really smooth package advertising the merits of flinging oneself from a structure spanning a river, they would be helpless to resist?

 

I'm going to try to explain my view point once again and then if you still don't get it, I give up.

 

For me it is not that I can't resist or can't say no to something. It is simply that when I am on vacation I prefer not to have to deal with it every second minute.

 

 

In my everyday life I am always making spending decisions (as I"m sure most of you are) do we use this money to remodel the bathroom or do we put it aside to replace the car which is getting a little old and may need major repairs soon? Is it better to rent an apartment near to the university with a higher monthly rent ot live further away for cheaper, but add the cost of transportation to the budget? Do I buy shoes for $20 and probably replace them in a couple of months or pay more and hope they will last longer? I know how to make choices and tradeoffs I just happen to prefer not to have to do it all the time for those few precious days or weeks I am on vacation.

From the posts here it seems obvious that a lot of other posters don't feel that way, and that is fine for them, but please, don't presume that just because someone doesn't enjoy living a la carte while on vacation that they need a lecture on self-control or budgeting.

[DMH15]

sunshine-

 

I am one of those who prefers the ala carte on NCL. So NCL is a good fit for me. If it wasn't I'd find another cruiseline. Or go to an all-inclusive.

[sunshine 229]

sunshine-

 

I am one of those who prefers the ala carte on NCL. So NCL is a good fit for me. If it wasn't I'd find another cruiseline. Or go to an all-inclusive.

 

Sounds sensible.

 

My first post on this subject said pretty much the same thing but simply added that I was disappointed that it seems to be impossible these days to find a main market cruise line out there now that isn't a la carte.

 

I wrote:

I'm not against freestyle cruising being out there. I think it is great that there is a line that offers that option for those that want it. What I am somewhat bemoaning is the fact that this concept or some bastardized version of it seems to be showing up on all the main market lines...one of the things I used to like about cruising was the fact that I pretty much knew, going in, what the vacation was going to cost me.

 

 

 

This was greeted by responses such as this one from swedish weave

"Self discipline would totally eliminate the problem. If you don't want to spend the money, don't order it."

 

I'm not sure why the fact that I prefer a more inclusive vacation indicates that I have no self discipline but that was apparently that posters take on things.

[judipa]

I have had my luggage put into my cabin once or twice but I can't say I remember which ship it was on. I say ship because I think this is not fleet-wide on any cruiseline. It was never put on the bed. Inside/outside is not a big deal for me. I'm nervous until I get my bags and then I consider my cruise started.;):)

 

I'm going on Pearl this month (:D). I am reading the reviews and most seem positive, except for this Coastal one. Could it be the staff was just tired of the weather in Alaska? I know it's beautiful and all, but after awhile they may just want a change of scenery.

 

:)

 

You will have a wonderful time on the Pearl. i was on it for 13 days last year on a TA and some of the cruise staff that are on there now were on then and they are great. You will have a blast with them.

[gottahavefun]

If you advertise one price and sell said item at another that's false advertising. No no one actually said the words and that is why I put them in "". I was trying to point out that nothing is what it is advertised.

 

You have to research before you book or buy anything. That's why it's called planning and not vacation. You're right that no one wants to spend a vacation watching every penny that they spend.

 

Companies have to do anything and everything to get your dollar especially in this economy. And you have to take some responsibility for yourself. If you have a 500.00 budget, then stick to it. Plan around it. And enjoy it. Why make yourself crazy over something if a little research can make your vacation just that.... A vacation.

[swedish weave]

Sounds sensible.

 

 

 

 

This was greeted by responses such as this one from swedish weave

"Self discipline would totally eliminate the problem. If you don't want to spend the money, don't order it."

 

I'm not sure why the fact that I prefer a more inclusive vacation indicates that I have no self discipline but that was apparently that posters take on things.

 

Sunshine -- I copied the following from your post that triggered my comment. Did I misinterpret what you were saying ?

 

(quote)

I understand how, to some people, that may seem like a choice... to me it just feels like someone having their hand in my pocket for more money everytime I turn around, and me having to be on my guard not to run up a bigger bill than I planned to by adding five, ten or twenty dollar charges all over the place.

[Coupe]

The staff on the ship are human. They are being pressed to do more as people in many industries are.

 

We've had the luggage put on the bed n only one cruise, the Tahitian Princess. They had just finished a Summer in Alaska and we were leaving for Hawaii. The staff got warmer the closer we got to Hawaii. They were thrilled to leave Alaska behind.

[sunshine 229]

Oh my, where to start?

 

It is simple--yes, simple--for me to say that my wife and I will likely dine five or six nights in specialty restaurants during our upcoming fifteen-night Spirit cruise. That's about $200-225 dollars. Other than that, there is nothing--not shore excursions, drinks, on-board shopping--that we will spend money on that wouldn't have been extra-charge on any mass-market cruise line fifteen or twenty years ago. So your argument, frankly, has no basis in reality. None. Nada. Sorry.

 

 

As I mentioned several posts ago, not all that many years ago when I cruised, the exercise classes (on RCCL at least) were included at no extra charge, in fact participation was rewarded with little bonus gifts. As I found out,and another poster mentioned too, nowadays, most if not all of the exercise related classes ( yoga, spinning etc.) are an added charge.

 

When I cruised on the Dawn (early 2000's) dinner in Salsa, and the Italian restaurant (forget the name) were included, now there is a surcharge to eat there.

 

When I cruised previously with RCCL they offered a cocktail tasting and drink mixing demonstration, for free. Now NCL for sure and I think RCCL also, are offering 'martini tastings' at an added charge.

 

Room service used to be free all the time, now after a certain time on some lines RCCL for sure, don't know about the others, there is a charge for room service after a certain hour (maybe 11 PM at night?)

 

Soft drinks used to be free in the dining room with meals, not anymore.

 

Cappucino and espresso used to be free in the dining rooms, on NCL, haven't tried recently, but I think this is now an extra charge item too.

 

Quite possibly there is nothing that you will spend money on that "wouldn't have been extra-charge on any mass-market cruise line fifteen or twenty years ago" there are however several things that I might have enjoyed, at no extra cost, a few years ago which will now result in an added charge to my on board account.

 

Sunshine -- I copied the following from your post that triggered my comment. Did I misinterpret what you were saying ?

 

(quote)

I understand how, to some people, that may seem like a choice... to me it just feels like someone having their hand in my pocket for more money everytime I turn around, and me having to be on my guard not to run up a bigger bill than I planned to by adding five, ten or twenty dollar charges all over the place.

 

My post mentioned that I now have to be on guard not to run up a bigger charge...not that I am incapable of refusing to pay extra.

 

Take for instance my example above of the espresso that used to be available in the NCL dining room, I enjoyed those previously now if I order one will I be handed a chit to sign?

 

On RCCL if I order room service I have to note if it is before or after 11PM to know if I'll be hit with the extra charge. Show up for an exercise class oops, do I have to beat a hasty retreat or sign away another $10?All of these things taken individually are small but added up over a whole cruise, especially if cruising with a family, they add up and for me are just a nuisence to be always inquiring and checking what is and isn't included, especially since it seems always to be changing and things that were included on a previous cruise may not be on the one you take this year.

 

Last time I cruised on RCCL, if I remember correctly, food at Johnny rockets was included but the milk shakes weren't. Guess I should have gone over every item on every menu on the ship, with my son, before boarding so he knew that he could get a hamburger there but had to order water to go with it.

 

A long winded way to say that yes, swedish weave IMO you misinterpreted what I was saying.

[sottovoce]

Oh my, where to start?

 

 

 

As I mentioned several posts ago, not all that many years ago when I cruised, the exercise classes (on RCCL at least) were included at no extra charge, in fact participation was rewarded with little bonus gifts. As I found out,and another poster mentioned too, nowadays, most if not all of the exercise related classes ( yoga, spinning etc.) are an added charge.

 

When I cruised on the Dawn (early 2000's) dinner in Salsa, and the Italian restaurant (forget the name) were included, now there is a surcharge to eat there.

 

When I cruised previously with RCCL they offered a cocktail tasting and drink mixing demonstration, for free. Now NCL for sure and I think RCCL also, are offering 'martini tastings' at an added charge.

 

Room service used to be free all the time, now after a certain time on some lines RCCL for sure, don't know about the others, there is a charge for room service after a certain hour (maybe 11 PM at night?)

 

Soft drinks used to be free in the dining room with meals, not anymore.

 

Cappucino and espresso used to be free in the dining rooms, on NCL, haven't tried recently, but I think this is now an extra charge item too.

 

Quite possibly there is nothing that you will spend money on that "wouldn't have been extra-charge on any mass-market cruise line fifteen or twenty years ago" there are however several things that I might have enjoyed, at no extra cost, a few years ago which will now result in an added charge to my on board account.

 

Look, your complaint was that you couldn't figure out what your total cost would be. Right? I explained how simple it is to factor in the cost of a few dinners in the specialty dining rooms, add that to the cruise fare, fees and taxes, and then the service charge. If a few cappuccinos, a milk shake (and when were milk shakes served at no charge?), and a soda or two or three are what you are concerned about, I have no sympathy. Those are nits. Small potatoes. Not worth the keystrokes we've spent on them. You would have to work hard to turn that into much more than $50. If that's what's preventing you from estimating your total cost in advance, all I can say is :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

[sunshine 229]

Look, your complaint was that you couldn't figure out what your total cost would be. Right? I explained how simple it is to factor in the cost of a few dinners in the specialty dining rooms, add that to the cruise fare, fees and taxes, and then the service charge. If a few cappuccinos, a milk shake (and when were milk shakes served at no charge?), and a soda or two or three are what you are concerned about, I have no sympathy. Those are nits. Small potatoes. Not worth the keystrokes we've spent on them. You would have to work hard to turn that into much more than $50. If that's what's preventing you from estimating your total cost in advance, all I can say is :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

 

No, my 'complaint' wasn't that I couldn't figure out what my total cost would be, I am capable of doing math, my comment was simply that I preferred not to have to keep a running total in my head of all the extra charges or even try to keep track of what is extra charge on any particular cruise.

 

It wasn't a complaint, it wasn't a request for advice on how to solve my 'problem' it was simply a statement that I preferred the previous system where more things were included and an explanation of why I felt that way.

 

Most of the wasted keystrokes were a result of other posters trying to tell me why I am wrong to feel the way I do or that I am wrong about there being fewer things included now than there were before.

 

It's funny, I was quite happy to allow those of you who prefer to" pay as you go" to have that preference, but a number of other posters seemed to feel it was their duty to try to convince me that my preferences are somehow wrong.