FLSteve11 Posted January 14, 2012 #151 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Why does a ship with a gash in her port side list to starboard? Maybe there is a bigger hole on the starboard side you can't see underwater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjn911 Posted January 14, 2012 #152 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Great post --------------------------------------------------------------------------------from Captain BJ on Costa boards: my two cents based on sitting in the Captain's chair for a couple of years and investigating officer for a couple of marine 'incidents' but these are just first thoughts - looking at the overall layout of where the ship was due to go and where it went I have to suspect there was a deviation from the normal course. - tracks show a deviation to port, toward the island that makes no navigational sense * my opinion is this was an electronic error. 'Someone' had reprogrammed the GPS tied to the auto-pilot and had fat fingered a course entry (note the one digit error mentioned by another post), This error turned the ship TOWARD the island rather than north leaving the island safely to the west. (maritime cases are loaded with "radar assisted collision" cases, easily expanded to electronic because folks relied TOO hard on the magic of electrons) * OPINION - SADLY the bridge watch noticed this error WAY too late. (In the vernacular of 'Bridge Resource Management', we call this 'loss of situational awareness) Once detected they notified the Captain who knew they were far off track and getting back on track would cost dollars in either a late arrival or consumption of addition fuel to increase speed. * OPINION - The Captain then saw a short cut ..... a pass between two islands that was narrow but 'just enough' and allowed for minimal loss of time and distance * OPINION - He went for it ..... and learned it was not well charted, because no significant vessels sail thru it!!!!! Oops, turned trying to avoid a rock but the stern swing (a ship turns from the back, your car turns from the front) had him catch the rock "full and by" - he's got a SERIOUS problem now..... * OPINION - Once holed he saw he was close to the port and thought if I can dock the ship the risk is FAR FAR less, so he heads north to the port, only a few miles away while trying to manage the flooding. During this time he tells his crew, do NOT abandon, because I'm going to dock...... * the port entrance faces north and he approaches from the south so he must do a 180 degree turn about. Doing so allows enough of the water taken on thru the MASSIVE hole to shift (free surface effect) and the ship lists significantly to starboard resulting in a decision (or an uncontrolled event) to ground the ship just outside the port entrance. (ship damage control . . . ) My opinion . . . . __________________ Capt BJ Costa, Commodore, NCL, Windstar, Princess, DCL, RCL 40+ cruises USCG Captain, retired - 6 ships, 2 commands, 12 yrs @ sea Shellback, Golden Dragon, Bering Sea winter vet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pe4all Posted January 14, 2012 #153 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Great post --------------------------------------------------------------------------------from Captain BJ on Costa boards: my two cents based on sitting in the Captain's chair for a couple of years and investigating officer for a couple of marine 'incidents' but these are just first thoughts - looking at the overall layout of where the ship was due to go and where it went I have to suspect there was a deviation from the normal course. - tracks show a deviation to port, toward the island that makes no navigational sense * my opinion is this was an electronic error. 'Someone' had reprogrammed the GPS tied to the auto-pilot and had fat fingered a course entry (note the one digit error mentioned by another post), This error turned the ship TOWARD the island rather than north leaving the island safely to the west. (maritime cases are loaded with "radar assisted collision" cases, easily expanded to electronic because folks relied TOO hard on the magic of electrons) * OPINION - SADLY the bridge watch noticed this error WAY too late. (In the vernacular of 'Bridge Resource Management', we call this 'loss of situational awareness) Once detected they notified the Captain who knew they were far off track and getting back on track would cost dollars in either a late arrival or consumption of addition fuel to increase speed. * OPINION - The Captain then saw a short cut ..... a pass between two islands that was narrow but 'just enough' and allowed for minimal loss of time and distance * OPINION - He went for it ..... and learned it was not well charted, because no significant vessels sail thru it!!!!! Oops, turned trying to avoid a rock but the stern swing (a ship turns from the back, your car turns from the front) had him catch the rock "full and by" - he's got a SERIOUS problem now..... * OPINION - Once holed he saw he was close to the port and thought if I can dock the ship the risk is FAR FAR less, so he heads north to the port, only a few miles away while trying to manage the flooding. During this time he tells his crew, do NOT abandon, because I'm going to dock...... * the port entrance faces north and he approaches from the south so he must do a 180 degree turn about. Doing so allows enough of the water taken on thru the MASSIVE hole to shift (free surface effect) and the ship lists significantly to starboard resulting in a decision (or an uncontrolled event) to ground the ship just outside the port entrance. (ship damage control . . . ) My opinion . . . . __________________ Capt BJ Costa, Commodore, NCL, Windstar, Princess, DCL, RCL 40+ cruises USCG Captain, retired - 6 ships, 2 commands, 12 yrs @ sea Shellback, Golden Dragon, Bering Sea winter vet This scenario actually makes sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdamion Posted January 14, 2012 #154 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Great post --------------------------------------------------------------------------------from Captain BJ on Costa boards: my two cents based on sitting in the Captain's chair for a couple of years and investigating officer for a couple of marine 'incidents' but these are just first thoughts - looking at the overall layout of where the ship was due to go and where it went I have to suspect there was a deviation from the normal course. - tracks show a deviation to port, toward the island that makes no navigational sense * my opinion is this was an electronic error. 'Someone' had reprogrammed the GPS tied to the auto-pilot and had fat fingered a course entry (note the one digit error mentioned by another post), This error turned the ship TOWARD the island rather than north leaving the island safely to the west. (maritime cases are loaded with "radar assisted collision" cases, easily expanded to electronic because folks relied TOO hard on the magic of electrons) * OPINION - SADLY the bridge watch noticed this error WAY too late. (In the vernacular of 'Bridge Resource Management', we call this 'loss of situational awareness) Once detected they notified the Captain who knew they were far off track and getting back on track would cost dollars in either a late arrival or consumption of addition fuel to increase speed. * OPINION - The Captain then saw a short cut ..... a pass between two islands that was narrow but 'just enough' and allowed for minimal loss of time and distance * OPINION - He went for it ..... and learned it was not well charted, because no significant vessels sail thru it!!!!! Oops, turned trying to avoid a rock but the stern swing (a ship turns from the back, your car turns from the front) had him catch the rock "full and by" - he's got a SERIOUS problem now..... * OPINION - Once holed he saw he was close to the port and thought if I can dock the ship the risk is FAR FAR less, so he heads north to the port, only a few miles away while trying to manage the flooding. During this time he tells his crew, do NOT abandon, because I'm going to dock...... * the port entrance faces north and he approaches from the south so he must do a 180 degree turn about. Doing so allows enough of the water taken on thru the MASSIVE hole to shift (free surface effect) and the ship lists significantly to starboard resulting in a decision (or an uncontrolled event) to ground the ship just outside the port entrance. (ship damage control . . . ) My opinion . . . . __________________ Capt BJ Costa, Commodore, NCL, Windstar, Princess, DCL, RCL 40+ cruises USCG Captain, retired - 6 ships, 2 commands, 12 yrs @ sea Shellback, Golden Dragon, Bering Sea winter vet Thanks. With all the speculation, this is by far the most reasonable educated guess that I have seen. It makes sense and answers many questions. We shall see in the weeks/months ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luv2gonow Posted January 14, 2012 #155 Share Posted January 14, 2012 That post does make a lot of sense. Maybe it should also be a wake up call to always put SAFETY first and not look at the "bottom line". Really sad this is the normal now....and certainly not limited to the cruise industry. I pray for all of the people onboard. Kerri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvynG Posted January 14, 2012 #156 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I just saw a picture of the black box being taken off the ship. This will show in detail what happened. I suspect human error by an inexperienced crew member. They should constantly monitor the depth of water beneath the keel. The captain should have been the last to leave the ship. In fact he left two hours before the last passengers. Shame on him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIG_Steve Posted January 15, 2012 #157 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Great post --------------------------------------------------------------------------------from Captain BJ on Costa boards: my two cents based on sitting in the Captain's chair for a couple of years and investigating officer for a couple of marine 'incidents' but these are just first thoughts - looking at the overall layout of where the ship was due to go and where it went I have to suspect there was a deviation from the normal course. - tracks show a deviation to port, toward the island that makes no navigational sense * my opinion is this was an electronic error. 'Someone' had reprogrammed the GPS tied to the auto-pilot and had fat fingered a course entry (note the one digit error mentioned by another post), This error turned the ship TOWARD the island rather than north leaving the island safely to the west. (maritime cases are loaded with "radar assisted collision" cases, easily expanded to electronic because folks relied TOO hard on the magic of electrons) * OPINION - SADLY the bridge watch noticed this error WAY too late. (In the vernacular of 'Bridge Resource Management', we call this 'loss of situational awareness) Once detected they notified the Captain who knew they were far off track and getting back on track would cost dollars in either a late arrival or consumption of addition fuel to increase speed. * OPINION - The Captain then saw a short cut ..... a pass between two islands that was narrow but 'just enough' and allowed for minimal loss of time and distance * OPINION - He went for it ..... and learned it was not well charted, because no significant vessels sail thru it!!!!! Oops, turned trying to avoid a rock but the stern swing (a ship turns from the back, your car turns from the front) had him catch the rock "full and by" - he's got a SERIOUS problem now..... * OPINION - Once holed he saw he was close to the port and thought if I can dock the ship the risk is FAR FAR less, so he heads north to the port, only a few miles away while trying to manage the flooding. During this time he tells his crew, do NOT abandon, because I'm going to dock...... * the port entrance faces north and he approaches from the south so he must do a 180 degree turn about. Doing so allows enough of the water taken on thru the MASSIVE hole to shift (free surface effect) and the ship lists significantly to starboard resulting in a decision (or an uncontrolled event) to ground the ship just outside the port entrance. (ship damage control . . . ) My opinion . . . . Interesting read, thanks. Please answer this if you can. Legally, what are the captains' responsibilities in an emergency like this? Is he required to stay until everyone is safe or all hope is abandoned? Or is he allowed to leave when he see's fit? Not talking morally, asking about his legal duty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjn911 Posted January 15, 2012 #158 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Interesting read, thanks. Please answer this if you can. Legally, what are the captains' responsibilities in an emergency like this? Is he required to stay until everyone is safe or all hope is abandoned? Or is he allowed to leave when he see's fit? Not talking morally, asking about his legal duty. I just told this Captain how I thought it shoud be posted on all threads on this subject and moved it from Costa boards giving him credit.....all i know..he posted on Costa board on largest thread on subject..if you want to try and catch him there...so well written...and calmly thought out from a man of the sea...Sarah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanWeGoYet? Posted January 15, 2012 #159 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Found a link to an article quoting a woman who was on board the ship. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Local-woman-describes-absolute-chaos-as-cruise-ship-crashes-137347443.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanWeGoYet? Posted January 15, 2012 #160 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm surprised the Captain didn't have a heart attack. I can't even imagine. Praying I am never responsible for this kind of FUBAR debacle at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topo Gigio Posted January 15, 2012 Author #161 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Sorry, I guess that would create a problem. My wording is horrible. He meant he would have driven the ship into shallower water, close to the port. He said a few months but it could take as little as one. I'm not an expert but 1 month? if they can save the boat not only do they have to replace all the stuff, but also a fair amount of electrical/mechanical stuff has to be replaced and most of them are not readily available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunsWithFlyingDolphins Posted January 15, 2012 #162 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I'm not an expert but 1 month? if they can save the boat not only do they have to replace all the stuff, but also a fair amount of electrical/mechanical stuff has to be replaced and most of them are not readily available. My brother-in-law was saying it could take as little as a month to get her out of her current position, depending on what he decides to do with her. As for refurbishments... I think it will probably take about a year to get her back up and running again. Because they pretty much have to re-do most of the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topo Gigio Posted January 15, 2012 Author #163 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Thanks for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keystonemama Posted January 15, 2012 #164 Share Posted January 15, 2012 They have just reported finding 2 more bodies with their llife jackets on, elderly gentlemen, bringing death toll to 5. :( Also read this quote from the Nanaimo Daily News: "The Costa Concordia, which ran aground on Friday the 13th, was regarded as a cursed ship by superstitious Italian sailors, after the champagne bottle failed to smash when it was against the hull for it's christening ceremonies." :eek: Note to self: Do not cruise on Friday the 13th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keystonemama Posted January 15, 2012 #165 Share Posted January 15, 2012 They have just reported finding 2 more bodies with their llife jackets on, elderly gentlemen, bringing death toll to 5. :( Also read this quote from the Nanaimo Daily News: "The Costa Concordia, which ran aground on Friday the 13th, was regarded as a cursed ship by superstitious Italian sailors, after the champagne bottle failed to smash when it was against the hull for it's christening ceremonies." :eek: Note to self: Do not cruise on Friday the 13th. Oops, meant, "when it was thrown against the hull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdlsad Posted January 15, 2012 #166 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Two more bodies were just found on Costa accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mzloolue Posted January 15, 2012 #167 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Found a link to an article quoting a woman who was on board the ship. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Local-woman-describes-absolute-chaos-as-cruise-ship-crashes-137347443.html This is an interesting and well written article. Thanks for posting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZ Karaoke Girl Posted January 15, 2012 #168 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Two more bodies were just found on Costa accident. Latest I read is 5 dead and only 17 unaccounted for. That is amazing out of over 4200 onboard. Even if the captain did something wrong, it could have been a whole lot worse if he had not steered the vessel toward land. Just think what would have happened if it was in the middle of the ocean far from land and the entire ship sunk and people couldn't swim to land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjn911 Posted January 15, 2012 #169 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Latest I read is 5 dead and only 17 unaccounted for. That is amazing out of over 4200 onboard. Even if the captain did something wrong, it could have been a whole lot worse if he had not steered the vessel toward land. Just think what would have happened if it was in the middle of the ocean far from land and the entire ship sunk and people couldn't swim to land. Check, if you wish, Captain BJ's account of possibile way it all came down..sarah I posted just a bit earlier in thread...Sarah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjn911 Posted January 15, 2012 #170 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Found a link to an article quoting a woman who was on board the ship. http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Local-woman-describes-absolute-chaos-as-cruise-ship-crashes-137347443.html Thanks...it does bring terror of all mistakes any can make or avoid making with deeply practiced protocols...Sarah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enigmalady777 Posted January 15, 2012 #171 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Even though there were some fatalities, I find it remarkable that over 4,000 people made it to safety. I'm wondering why it is that this particular ship had not yet held it's muster drill. The two cruises I've been on, the muster drills were held on the first day of sailing (embarkation day) within a couple of hours of leaving port. Looking at the latest pictures of the ship, I can't help but wonder if the ship is salvageable. Having sailed the Splendor recently, I can tell anyone who is skittish about following through with their cruise plans after this disaster, that it is completely safe and accidents like this one are very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keystonemama Posted January 15, 2012 #172 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Even though there were some fatalities, I find it remarkable that over 4,000 people made it to safety. I'm wondering why it is that this particular ship had not yet held it's muster drill. The two cruises I've been on, the muster drills were held on the first day of sailing (embarkation day) within a couple of hours of leaving port. Looking at the latest pictures of the ship, I can't help but wonder if the ship is salvageable. Having sailed the Splendor recently, I can tell anyone who is skittish about following through with their cruise plans after this disaster, that it is completely safe and accidents like this one are very rare. Correct me if wrong, but the ship sailed originally and then picked up more passengers on the 13th? I saw a interview this morning where the couple and his family had boarded originally. He said there was a safety muster drill, but nothing about safety was discussed, instead it was a pitch for cruise excursions. :eek: He said he knew to go to deck 4 in an emergency because they had gone back to their cabin and read the emergency paperwork in their cabin. Unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdamion Posted January 15, 2012 #173 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Correct me if wrong, but the ship sailed originally and then picked up more passengers on the 13th? I saw a interview this morning where the couple and his family had boarded originally. He said there was a safety muster drill, but nothing about safety was discussed, instead it was a pitch for cruise excursions. :eek: He said he knew to go to deck 4 in an emergency because they had gone back to their cabin and read the emergency paperwork in their cabin. Unacceptable. You are correct. That particular itinerary makes a continuous circle and picks up passengers at several stops. Most of the passengers were actually on their last night of the cruise as the ship was headed back to Costa's main port. That's why the delay in their 'safety briefing'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heirloom Posted January 15, 2012 #174 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Additional report just in from the NY Times.... http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/16/world/europe/italian-cruise-ship-accident-raises-questions-about-crew-and-captain.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vacruizer Posted January 15, 2012 #175 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Costa has just issued a statement saying "significant human error" and naming the captain as at fault. Not the typical corporate spin job - they must have some pretty good evidence against him and just want to distance themselves from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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