sidari Posted September 13, 2012 #2526 Share Posted September 13, 2012 "Not so sure Foschi would want the man who cost him his job following him to the other end of the world. Foschi does have Asian experience as VP of Otis Elevator. Maybe he'll be able to provide some insight to the families of the dead who were trapped in the Costa Concordia elevators" Sad though it still is that people died you have to ask why those people were using Lifts/elevators in an emergancy situation? after all you would not use them in a tower block that was on fire! "Gianni Scerni, the chairman of Registro Italiano Navale (RINA), the classification society that issued Costa Concordia a certificate of seaworthiness and safety management in November 2011, resigned on 18 January 2012." You have to wonder why .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stella_mare Posted September 13, 2012 #2527 Share Posted September 13, 2012 "Not so sure Foschi would want the man who cost him his job following him to the other end of the world. Foschi does have Asian experience as VP of Otis Elevator. Maybe he'll be able to provide some insight to the families of the dead who were trapped in the Costa Concordia elevators" Sad though it still is that people died you have to ask why those people were using Lifts/elevators in an emergancy situation? after all you would not use them in a tower block that was on fire! It makes you wonder when (and why) the passengers boarded the elevator. They were misled about the true emergency taking place; told not to worry, it was only a blackout. But how did the elevators have power in a blackout situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidari Posted September 13, 2012 #2528 Share Posted September 13, 2012 But how did the elevators have power in a blackout situation? Stella .... good question unless they were in there before they lost power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka's Skipper Posted September 13, 2012 #2529 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Yes, the harbour/port authority did the inspection (along with RINA) in November to verify the documentation submitted by Costa Crociere related to its safeety/security measures. The second pass in December was a further check by RINA - again, voluntary and optional, related to additional certifications. From Wiki: "Gianni Scerni, the chairman of Registro Italiano Navale (RINA), the classification society that issued Costa Concordia a certificate of seaworthiness and safety management in November 2011, resigned on 18 January 2012." OK....thanks! I looked it up and it is one of the smaller class groups., thanks for the info! Edited September 13, 2012 by Tonka's Skipper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted September 14, 2012 #2530 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Costa rejects any blame placed its way. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/european-business/concordia-operator-rejects-blame-in-cruise-ship-disaster/article4542464/?cmpid=rss1 This is just one of 3 articles I saw on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiserfanfromct Posted September 14, 2012 #2531 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Italy: Court Experts Broaden Blame in Cruise Ship Wreck Beyond CaptainBy THE ASSOCIATED PRESS Published: September 13, 2012 Court-appointed experts said the captain was primarily to blame for the deadly cruise ship accident that killed 32 people in January, but they also faulted the crew and the shipowner for blunders, delays and security breaches that contributed to the disaster. The ship, the Costa Concordia, ran aground and capsized off the Tuscan island of Giglio after Capt. Francesco Schettino took it off course in a stunt. He is accused of causing the shipwreck, manslaughter and abandoning the ship before all passengers were evacuated. [/color][/b]Eight other people are also under investigation. The experts said crew members bungled directions, did not understand orders and were not trained or certified in security and emergency drills. They said the ship’s owner, Costa Crociere, delayed alerting coastal authorities about the emergency, an assertion the company denied. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/world/europe/italy-court-experts-broaden-blame-in-cruise-ship-wreck-beyond-captain.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiserfanfromct Posted September 14, 2012 #2532 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Costa rejects any blame placed its way. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/european-business/concordia-operator-rejects-blame-in-cruise-ship-disaster/article4542464/?cmpid=rss1 This is just one of 3 articles I saw on the subject. Yes -- Costa denies the findings of the court experts in respect to the company but notice that Roberto Ferrarini, head of crisis management got the axe -- Ferrarini is the one the experts say should have ordered Schettino to sound the emergency signal much earlier. There are published recorded conversations by the Italian media between Ferrarini and the Coast Guard that are pretty lame and make RF sound like he is totally clueless or hiding something! I don't think Costa and Carnival Corp are going to be totally off the hook on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted September 14, 2012 #2533 Share Posted September 14, 2012 CT, I don't see how Costa can claim they weren't getting accurate facts. I'll grant RF a bit of space that in the first couple of minutes Schettino may not have been clear or accurate in his report but after that I believe RF had more knowledge of just how serious this was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniall Posted September 14, 2012 #2534 Share Posted September 14, 2012 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/world/europe/italy-court-experts-broaden-blame-in-cruise-ship-wreck-beyond-captain.html How can you possibly place and faith, trust or belief in an article published in the New York Times..................;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiserfanfromct Posted September 14, 2012 #2535 Share Posted September 14, 2012 CT, I don't see how Costa can claim they weren't getting accurate facts. I'll grant RF a bit of space that in the first couple of minutes Schettino may not have been clear or accurate in his report but after that I believe RF had more knowledge of just how serious this was. Agreed, that is why I believe RF is being investigated by the authorities and his duties reassigned by Costa. His cluelessness in the phone conversation with the Coast Guard could be a concerted cover up, IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiserfanfromct Posted September 14, 2012 #2536 Share Posted September 14, 2012 How can you possibly place and faith, trust or belief in an article published in the New York Times..................;);) “All the News That's Fit to Print.” As their motto goes......... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted September 14, 2012 #2537 Share Posted September 14, 2012 From Giglio News Shipwreck Costa Concordia, Costa Cruises expertise experts confirms responsibility. Legambiente: "That's why we gave the black flag Costa Cruises. The sinking of Giglio must serve to strengthen controls over the quality and training of the crews of large ships " "On the Costa Concordia occurred a series of incredible errors only some of which are attributable to the conduct of Captain Schettino. For the rest, we believe that they are increasingly emerging fault or responsibility of the shipping company that has had at least a superficial attitude in the selection of the crew and has demonstrated a strong underestimation of the emergency management during the most critical phase. " Sebastiano Venneri, head sea Legambiente comments on the outcome of the report of the experts appointed by the prosecutor in Grosseto on the sinking of the Costa Concordia. text confirmation, in fact, the major responsibility of the shipping company in the wreck of the Costa Concordia. Not only Schettino, therefore, that with his wicked conduct has certainly played an important role, but also Costa Cruises have contributed significantly to the disaster that has worn off the coast of the island of Giglio. In the pages of the report refers to the lack of preparation and professionalism of the officers on board, the superficiality in crew training, the confusion in the assignment of tasks and duties, ignorance and lack of proper certification by many members of 'crew, the incredible phases of emergency management that betrays a lack of proper selection of personnel on board the ship. "It 's for this reason - continues Venneri - that this summer we have assigned to the black flag of Costa Cruises new pirates of the sea. Suffice it to say that, for example, as shown in the report, the orders from the captain to the steersman Indonesian in the run-up to Lily, were not immediately understood, although pronounced in English on a ship that also would have required the Italian as the language of job." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiserfanfromct Posted September 14, 2012 #2538 Share Posted September 14, 2012 From Giglio News Shipwreck Costa Concordia, Costa Cruises expertise experts confirms responsibility. Legambiente: "That's why we gave the black flag Costa Cruises. The sinking of Giglio must serve to strengthen controls over the quality and training of the crews of large ships " "On the Costa Concordia occurred a series of incredible errors only some of which are attributable to the conduct of Captain Schettino. For the rest, we believe that they are increasingly emerging fault or responsibility of the shipping company that has had at least a superficial attitude in the selection of the crew and has demonstrated a strong underestimation of the emergency management during the most critical phase. " Sebastiano Venneri, head sea Legambiente comments on the outcome of the report of the experts appointed by the prosecutor in Grosseto on the sinking of the Costa Concordia. text confirmation, in fact, the major responsibility of the shipping company in the wreck of the Costa Concordia. Not only Schettino, therefore, that with his wicked conduct has certainly played an important role, but also Costa Cruises have contributed significantly to the disaster that has worn off the coast of the island of Giglio. In the pages of the report refers to the lack of preparation and professionalism of the officers on board, the superficiality in crew training, the confusion in the assignment of tasks and duties, ignorance and lack of proper certification by many members of 'crew, the incredible phases of emergency management that betrays a lack of proper selection of personnel on board the ship. "It 's for this reason - continues Venneri - that this summer we have assigned to the black flag of Costa Cruises new pirates of the sea. Suffice it to say that, for example, as shown in the report, the orders from the captain to the steersman Indonesian in the run-up to Lily, were not immediately understood, although pronounced in English on a ship that also would have required the Italian as the language of job." Interesting. Also, there is a huge lawsuit against Carnival by Giglio Island tourist-related businesses that claim the disaster deterred visitors, polluted environmentally sensitive local waters and depressed property values. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive and anne Posted September 15, 2012 #2539 Share Posted September 15, 2012 This is a photo of one of the caissions in the shipyard. http://genova.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/09/14/foto/concordia_cassoni-42538912/1/?ref=fbpr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken711 Posted September 15, 2012 #2540 Share Posted September 15, 2012 This is a photo of one of the caissions in the shipyard.http://genova.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/09/14/foto/concordia_cassoni-42538912/1/?ref=fbpr Nice find Clive and Anne. You get a sense from those photos how large they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka's Skipper Posted September 15, 2012 #2541 Share Posted September 15, 2012 Thanks for the pic Clive and Anne, I don't know how you and Ken keep finding these! I ageree with ken, these things are alot larger then I thought they would be! AKK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stella_mare Posted September 15, 2012 #2542 Share Posted September 15, 2012 ..."Gianni Scerni, the chairman of Registro Italiano Navale (RINA), the classification society that issued Costa Concordia a certificate of seaworthiness and safety management in November 2011, resigned on 18 January 2012." You have to wonder why .... Panaroma interviewed Scerni a few days ago: "Yes, but you are also the only one who submitted his resignation in this whole affair that still has many, if not many, many, dark sides. Why did you step down? I agreed to resign because I did not feel right that facing the loss of human lives, economic interests could prevail. I tried to give priority to the protection of human life against the interests of "of the shop" of a classified ship and its owner who is a significant customer of the Italian Naval Register [RINA]." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KandCsailing Posted September 17, 2012 #2543 Share Posted September 17, 2012 CNN in Canada has Cruise to Disaster on right now about the Costa Concordia accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SomeBeach Posted September 17, 2012 #2544 Share Posted September 17, 2012 This is a photo of one of the caissions in the shipyard.http://genova.repubblica.it/cronaca/2012/09/14/foto/concordia_cassoni-42538912/1/?ref=fbpr Wow! Looks like they are as tall as a 5 story building. Nice find. KandC, I wonder if that's the same show we saw a few months back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidari Posted September 17, 2012 #2545 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Blame game widens! http://crew-center.com/eight-crew-members-under-investigation-concordia-disaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CostaSmurfette Posted September 17, 2012 #2546 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The Blame game widens! http://crew-center.com/eight-crew-members-under-investigation-concordia-disaster The aspect that needs close investigation is that the bridge officers and crew were hobbled by the language barrier...or at least the often very strong accents. Having heard Schettino in person, his accent is not always easy to understand...while he and the others speak reasonable English, the accents can often get in the way and change what words sound like or mean...albeit inadvertantly. You have an Indonesian helmsman taking orders from Italian officers...those Italian officers speak English but with regional accents, they are speaking to someone from Indonesia who himself has an accent and who uses English as a second language to his own "mother tongue". So it would be quite feasible that Schettino asked for a certain course to be taken and the helmsman misunderstood what was said to him...thus the ship wandered 0.5 miles off the requested course. Half a mile is not a huge length physically but in this case it meant a huge difference in what was safe and what was not safe. It would be interesting to see what the written course notes were against what was actually said...AND heard...by the helmsman and how the helmsman interpreted those requests in his steering. I know that an order given should be repeated by the person receiving it...to avoid mistakes, if nothing else...but if you have two very thick foreign accents, which afterall Indonesian and Italian are potentially very difficult to disipher and in the heat of the moment of giving that instruction, one or both parties could potentially misread or misunderstand what was said. Again, this was a common problem in airline accidents where the command of English was frequently poor and the understanding of orders/requests was often misinterpreted...such as in the Avianca crash some years ago near New York, the plane was out of fuel but due to language and training differences the crew stated they had an "urgent" need to land, when in New York's control tower assumed they were OK for a while longer cos they did not state that they had an "emergency"....both urgent and emergency mean the same thing but can be misconstrued when under stress or when two very different accents and/or training is in place. I think the level of training and most importantly the level of English spoken and understood will inevitably come under scrutiny and should bring about important changes in how officers are chosen, recruited and trained...and also how junior crew such as helmsmen are chosen, recruited and trained. I have said all along that it is not so much the why's and wherefore's of this accident that are important, but the lessons learnt and the procedural changes made that will inevitably make cruising safer in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampire Parrot Posted September 17, 2012 #2547 Share Posted September 17, 2012 (edited) The link sidari posted contains the text "According to the experts, it was a communication error between the master and helmsman that caused the impact, which is why Rusli is now under investigation for the sinking of Concordia." Back in May I was on holiday, I was Captain of a 50 foot boat in fairly narrow waters, easy, eh? Alas... I was too relaxed, I screwed giving orders one morning, I said starboard instead of point, easy to do :( It was *MY* sole responsibility to hear and understand the helmsmans reply. He correctly said "helm to starboard". I realised I'd got it wrong, I stated "Correction, helm to port. Helm to port.", watch for the correction and listen for the helmsman to say "Helm to port". Some years ago, there was a communications breakdown (again, my responsibility as the Master) and because we were close to shore, I said "I have the helm, I have the helm" and took the wheel. The point is that in my opinion, the person giving the commands to ensure safe navigation has the reponsibility to ensure her/his commands are being acted upon correctly. In both of the above (true) examples, it was my responsibility to ensure safe navigation. In the first case, I'd got it wrong. In the second case, the helmsman had got it wrong. But in both cases, it was *my sole responsibility* to ensure the vessel's heading was correct. VP Edited September 17, 2012 by Vampire Parrot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uniall Posted September 17, 2012 #2548 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The link sidari posted contains the text "According to the experts, it was a communication error between the master and helmsman that caused the impact, which is why Rusli is now under investigation for the sinking of Concordia." Back in May I was on holiday, I was Captain of a 50 foot boat in fairly narrow waters, easy, eh? Alas... I was too relaxed, I screwed giving orders one morning, I said starboard instead of point, easy to do :( It was *MY* sole responsibility to hear and understand the helmsmans reply. He correctly said "helm to starboard". I realised I'd got it wrong, I stated "Correction, helm to port. Helm to port.", watch for the correction and listen for the helmsman to say "Helm to port". Some years ago, there was a communications breakdown (again, my responsibility as the Master) and because we were close to shore, I said "I have the helm, I have the helm" and took the wheel. The point is that in my opinion, the person giving the commands to ensure safe navigation has the reponsibility to ensure her/his commands are being acted upon correctly. In both of the above (true) examples, it was my responsibility to ensure safe navigation. In the first case, I'd got it wrong. In the second case, the helmsman had got it wrong. But in both cases, it was *my sole responsibility* to ensure the vessel's heading was correct. VP VP Everything you say is accurate and true .... UNLESS You 1. you are Italian and 2. you are entertaining an off duty female entertainer and 3. you are named Schittino Ah yes, Captain Coward, the gift that keeps on giving. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruiserfanfromct Posted September 17, 2012 #2549 Share Posted September 17, 2012 The aspect that needs close investigation is that the bridge officers and crew were hobbled by the language barrier...or at least the often very strong accents. Having heard Schettino in person, his accent is not always easy to understand...while he and the others speak reasonable English, the accents can often get in the way and change what words sound like or mean...albeit inadvertantly. You have an Indonesian helmsman taking orders from Italian officers...those Italian officers speak English but with regional accents, they are speaking to someone from Indonesia who himself has an accent and who uses English as a second language to his own "mother tongue". So it would be quite feasible that Schettino asked for a certain course to be taken and the helmsman misunderstood what was said to him...thus the ship wandered 0.5 miles off the requested course. Half a mile is not a huge length physically but in this case it meant a huge difference in what was safe and what was not safe. It would be interesting to see what the written course notes were against what was actually said...AND heard...by the helmsman and how the helmsman interpreted those requests in his steering. I know that an order given should be repeated by the person receiving it...to avoid mistakes, if nothing else...but if you have two very thick foreign accents, which afterall Indonesian and Italian are potentially very difficult to disipher and in the heat of the moment of giving that instruction, one or both parties could potentially misread or misunderstand what was said. Again, this was a common problem in airline accidents where the command of English was frequently poor and the understanding of orders/requests was often misinterpreted...such as in the Avianca crash some years ago near New York, the plane was out of fuel but due to language and training differences the crew stated they had an "urgent" need to land, when in New York's control tower assumed they were OK for a while longer cos they did not state that they had an "emergency"....both urgent and emergency mean the same thing but can be misconstrued when under stress or when two very different accents and/or training is in place. I think the level of training and most importantly the level of English spoken and understood will inevitably come under scrutiny and should bring about important changes in how officers are chosen, recruited and trained...and also how junior crew such as helmsmen are chosen, recruited and trained. I have said all along that it is not so much the why's and wherefore's of this accident that are important, but the lessons learnt and the procedural changes made that will inevitably make cruising safer in the future. The lengths you go to exonerate Schettino boggles the mind. The fact that lessons were learned from this fiasco does not make Schettino the hero you paint him to be. 32 human lives is a mighty high price to pay to learn that proper procedures should have been followed. Thick accents aside, aren't wheel orders supposed to be repeated by the helmsman to ensure that they are carried out correctly? If the orders were repeated wouldn't Schettino have picked up on the error? If they weren't repeated shouldn't Schettino have asked for the orders to be repeated until he was satisfied he understood them? Or was Casanova so preoccupied by other matters that rendered him totally oblivious to everything around him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stella_mare Posted September 18, 2012 #2550 Share Posted September 18, 2012 CostaSmurfette, It is correct there was a language barrier. The working language on the ship was Italian, but all officers are required to know English. The helmsman seems to have had trouble with both. Yet Schettino had ALREADY planned, ordered and taken this ship way off course. The helmsman misunderstood and incorrectly applied Schettino's flurry of orders just as they were approaching the rock and after. Schettino ordered the ship in even closer than the 05m. That was his plan. The report also questions why a less-than-the-best equipped team of officers would be standing watch during this more critical phase of navigation (i.e., close to the coast, at night). In this matter as well, the panel is very critical of Schettino's utter lack of attention to fundamental standards and professionalism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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