Will you still cruise Europe?

[libramitch]

Are we leaving yet??????????

[jjssitters]

We have a group of 14 booked on the Millie 10/17/2006 and have no intention of canceling.Two of us are ex Green Berets from the Vietnam era and are very vigilant of our surroundings.Terrorism will be with us for the years to come so to allow 9/11,Madrid and now London to intimidate,then we all should be ashamed.

we are also booked on 10/17/06 :)

[benjamins]

I'm not so sure that travel to Europe is a question of letting "them win." The fact is that in this war the only way we can win is to continue to live our lives the way we always have, honoring those principles that we have always stood for.

 

The early communist revolutionaries new that their acts of terror would cause the czarist government to clamp down further on civil liberties in the name of state security. The greater the infringement, the greater the restlessness of the apathetic masses. Eventually those masses would become angry enough that they would join the revolution.

 

I don't believe that today's terrorists have such a strategy (altho' they could achieve similar results). It appears from their writings that their aim is to simply kill and/or destroy all who disagree with their world vision which seems to share a lot with the Taliban and very little with Islam.

 

They won't be converted, they must simply be destroyed. In the meantime, we must take care not to become other than what we are; free people with passports that allow us to explore the world. Safety is not included.

 

They seem revenge-oriented to me and nationalistic. That's what I hear from bin Laden, al Zawahiri, and some of the captured al Qaeda members. Terrorists won't be destroyed as we've witnessed this means surfacing generation after generation. You can kill the current crop, but they'll be a new generation that will learn from those that came before them, and probably have more resolve and venom.

 

This idea of winning is, IMO, coming out of Western hubris and nothing else. Our society and way of life has the upper hand in the world--and I don't say this out of pride, this is how I see it.

 

There are people that commit atrocities and nations that commit atrocities, and very few nations and people have not. Both the Western world and the Arab world have enslaved people and commited torture and other atrocities against their own people and those in other lands and fellow societies in their respective "worlds".

 

This them versus us mentality is at the root of a lot of the human family's problems.

 

What are the real situations and historical events and philosophies in other parts of the world that may want them to take a different way of revolutionizing their societies than the Western way? Is one ideology, (say democracy) really the answer for every society in the world?

 

What's the total amount of people who died on one side versus the other at the hands of the other? Who is suffering more in the wars? Which entity controlled and influenced one land and has determined their course for years and has now or in the past had military presence in their land vs. the other?

 

Both sides have perverted religion and fought with neighbors. Both have elements of the other within them.

 

It's not a game. It isn't about winning and losing and proving anything to the other side. It is about trying to be real about how warfare is conducted,

and that this means of "terrorism" is actually a means of warfare.

 

One thing that I must mention is the difference in reaction to "our" people dying and suffering and "theirs". Iraqis and Afghan people are dying, they are dealing with the uncertainties of traveling in their own lands concerning their future as to what type of social structure they will have, the indignity of having people from other cultures in charge in their lands or at least approving their course forward, and are also victims, and to a larger and more frequent extent, of car bombs and kidnappings and beheadings and other things we call terrorism and I call warfare. Afghani and Iraqi members of the human family love their families and loved ones and have dignity just like anyone else. Yet, the U.S. gov't can't bother to estimate how many are killed. And our media rarely personalizes the suffering of those that happen to live with entities we are at war with.

 

Showing the terrorist they won't disrupt us just shows how much they are in our heads. We deflate them far more when we start to care about people in their countries and just listen to their voices, both moderate and extreme and everything in between and attempt to suspend judgments and be defensive. Both sides through a long and difficult process should come clean about their own dirty hands rather than unrealistically stating that hands are dirty only on one side.

 

 

I don't care one bit about winning anything. Our way of life isn't threatened and I don't believe that those commiting these acts are doing it to threaten our way of life. It is our involvement in their lands, our support for the very undemocratic Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and other questionable entities, our history with them, our military presence in their lands (they have none in ours), our cultural presence in their lands, these issues are about them, not us. I think the mistake we make is to continue to think it is all about us. I know they are killing us, but we are also killing them and have killed them in past conflicts.

 

To relate this to vacations, I want some generations of people to travel and enjoy these cultures one day. Hopefully, we'll figure out a way where the threat of violence is miniscule and there's no feeling of sides, just sharing of variations in human culture.

[canderson]

... just sharing of variations in human culture.

We've tried to grow OUT of some of the things that provide us with many of those "variations" in human culture. One thing I find absurd is the concept that the practices of all such cultures are equally "valid". Slavery occurs today on a widespread basis in some countries in Africa. Genital mutilation and general oppression of women of nearly very description occurs in the Middle East. The same people who buy into the relativism that allows them to say these cultures aren't behaving very badly indeed would be the first to scream murder if such practices were permitted here. They're the first to say we can't judge such cultures by "our western values", but use those same values to judge others here in a heartbeat.

 

It's a lot like ideas -- regardless of what some would claim in the name of tolerance, all ideas aren't created equal. Some are well reasoned, and some aren't supported by reality.

 

We've tried, failed, and tried again to make progress in many areas in this country while watching some who've spent too much time at the feet of their Wahabi teachers in other countries attempt to drag their fellow citizens back in to the 1500's.

[benjamins]

 

We've tried, failed, and tried again to make progress in many areas in this country while watching some who've spent too much time at the feet of their Wahabi teachers in other countries attempt to drag their fellow citizens back in to the 1500's.

 

Different cultural factors and developments led to this unfortunate Wahabist movement. But there's resistance to it. Societies indeed progress at different rates.

 

I saw a PBS program on people who are making a difference in various parts of the world, and even in the most unfree environments, they somehow made a difference. But these were all home-grown, they sought financial support from various sources, including Western sources, but it was from within a portion of their community, and not a "foreign" culture.

[MikieF]

You bet I'd go to London and Europe anytime regardless of the lunatic fringe. We went on a 3 week European trip 10 days after 9/11 and would do so again.

[newmexicoNita]

Benjamin, this seems to be to you nothing more than a continuation of your views on thanking our vets on the 4th. I am sure you must share our grief over what happened in London yesterday and this thread refers to who will and will not travel to Europe in the near future, it does not have anything to do with ones liberal views versus others conservative views. Can we just deal with cruising and feelings related to cruising Europe right now? NMNita

[benjamins]

Benjamin, this seems to be to you nothing more than a continuation of your views on thanking our vets on the 4th. I am sure you must share our grief over what happened in London yesterday and this thread refers to who will and will not travel to Europe in the near future, it does not have anything to do with ones liberal views versus others conservative views. Can we just deal with cruising and feelings related to cruising Europe right now? NMNita

 

As soon as people mention going to Europe so terrorists don't win, it becomes political. I feel for the Londoners as I feel for anyone who is killed in this way. I don't feel more for Londoners than Indonesians, I feel the same grief.

 

Some may visit London or cruise to Europe in the near future, but not to show the terrorists anything, but for another reason. I would go to Europe because I think it is low risk, not that if I didn't the terrorist would "win". I want to support people who would reconsider for their personal safety because there's almost a peer pressure to agree that doing so is letting the terrorists "win". I don't share that philosophy or way of thinking whatsoever.

 

It's a personal decision, IMO. Come to your own conclusions.

[Mike2131]

Probably not, but not because of terrorist threats. Extremist lunatics can strike anywhere, anytime.

 

I have been to Europe quite a few times and have enjoyed every visit. In my opinion, it has so much to offer that the brief port visits that a cruise allows could not possibly do it justice. Only one day in London, Paris or Rome? I think not. Only a land vacation, probably concentrating on a single region, makes sense for me.

[Maureenie Beanie]

I've always felt safe with CELEBRITY. I was on the Bermuda cruise, in port at Hamilton for 9/11. The captain and crew were wonderful. I'll never forget their kindness they showed to all the passengers.

 

As far as security, since I've been with them several times since that Bermuda cruise, they are as tight with security as they were after the 9/11 attack that day.;)

[Joecors]

As a Londoner and a European, I would like to express my thanks and say how touched I was at the sentiments expressed in the replies to the original thread. There are so many fine cities in Europe - Rome, Paris, St Petersburg, Oslo, Tanninn, Florence with breathtaking architecture and enthralling history. Given the opportunity of seeing them... just go and try not to be intimidated by the actions that occurred in London on Thursday because, if you are, the terrorists would have achieved their objective.

Except for those who sadly lost or are missing relatives and friends, and the so hard working support services, life in London on Friday continued as normal with its inhabitants determined not to be cowed by terrorists bombs.

Life will go on in a city proud of its heritage, history and a spirit of resolution that has seen the country through far greater problems.

Apologies for the diatribe, I had to get it off my chest.

[hermang]

There are a few thoughts I have - that I would like to share.

 

1. The news media must stop glorifying the terrorists. They are not suicide bombers, they are homicide bombers. suicide bombers would only kill themselves. When they beheaded the first hostage I forget his first name but Berg was his last. The media made a big deal about his being Jewish. BULL he was an American and they just loved splashing it all over the internet and the media to sell papers and air time. Cut off the source of the terrorists media factor and they have no reason to do it again.

 

2. The media must stop fixating on every time a US soldier does something "wrong" to a detainee - Let one of them go over and put their life on the line every day and watch as their buddies get blown up.

 

3. I don't have the latest figures but there were more Israelies killed in traffic accidents than by all the bombings in the last few years.

 

4. Golda Meir once said to Anwar Saadat - There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Arab mothers think more about keeping their sons and daughters alive than using them to kill the Jews - ( quote is not exact).

 

As a previous poster noted - we will never be totally free of terrorists - but what is needed is universal condemnation - this is not about disenfranchised

people but people with an agenda.

[mcarnett]

We have a group of 14 booked on the Millie 10/17/2006 and have no intention of canceling.Two of us are ex Green Berets from the Vietnam era and are very vigilant of our surroundings.Terrorism will be with us for the years to come so to allow 9/11,Madrid and now London to intimidate,then we all should be ashamed.

I agree 100%. I am a Vietnam Vet also. I will not be intimidated either. My wife, daughter and I are planing a Mediterranean Cruise in 2006 also. Do not feel unsafe at all. By the way thmsmcdnld, have not heard from you for a while on our thrread.:( Are you still joining us?:confused: We only need 4 more people to sign up for our M&M party.

 

Mike

[Tony UK]

Thank you all for your kind thoughts. Whatever your view please keep the bereaved, the missing and the injured in your thoughts and prayers.

 

After 9/11 there was great concern expressed around the tourist industry in the USA in case people thought it was unsafe to visit. I think it is just the same sort of concern being expressed here. Yes it was an awful attack, however Londeners are showing their resolve and are trying to carry on with their normal lives. It isn't the first terrorist attack in London. No doubt in our long history it won't be the last. We also have a history of not giving in to terrorists or their demands.

Each person must make their own judgement about travel, however to those who do decide to visit I am sure you will be made very welcome.

Incidentally I will be cruising from Southampton UK in September, and nothing will stop me! I'll also be sailing to Hawaii the following January, and visiting Pearl Harbour but I'm not scared!

Angie

[newmexicoNita]

There are a few thoughts I have - that I would like to share.

 

1. The news media must stop glorifying the terrorists. They are not suicide bombers, they are homicide bombers. suicide bombers would only kill themselves. When they beheaded the first hostage I forget his first name but Berg was his last. The media made a big deal about his being Jewish. BULL he was an American and they just loved splashing it all over the internet and the media to sell papers and air time. Cut off the source of the terrorists media factor and they have no reason to do it again.

 

2. The media must stop fixating on every time a US soldier does something "wrong" to a detainee - Let one of them go over and put their life on the line every day and watch as their buddies get blown up.

 

3. I don't have the latest figures but there were more Israelies killed in traffic accidents than by all the bombings in the last few years.

 

4. Golda Meir once said to Anwar Saadat - There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Arab mothers think more about keeping their sons and daughters alive than using them to kill the Jews - ( quote is not exact).

 

As a previous poster noted - we will never be totally free of terrorists - but what is needed is universal condemnation - this is not about disenfranchised

people but people with an agenda.

No one could have said it any better than you did!!

[Texed]

TonyUK (Angie),

Glad you are ok.

[hermang]

No one could have said it any better than you did!!

 

Thanks for your support!

[Sky Sweet]

There are a few thoughts I have - that I would like to share.

 

1. The news media must stop glorifying the terrorists. They are not suicide bombers, they are homicide bombers. suicide bombers would only kill themselves. When they beheaded the first hostage I forget his first name but Berg was his last. The media made a big deal about his being Jewish. BULL he was an American and they just loved splashing it all over the internet and the media to sell papers and air time. Cut off the source of the terrorists media factor and they have no reason to do it again.

 

2. The media must stop fixating on every time a US soldier does something "wrong" to a detainee - Let one of them go over and put their life on the line every day and watch as their buddies get blown up.

 

3. I don't have the latest figures but there were more Israelies killed in traffic accidents than by all the bombings in the last few years.

 

4. Golda Meir once said to Anwar Saadat - There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Arab mothers think more about keeping their sons and daughters alive than using them to kill the Jews - ( quote is not exact).

 

As a previous poster noted - we will never be totally free of terrorists - but what is needed is universal condemnation - this is not about disenfranchised

people but people with an agenda.

 

Great post, HermanG :)

[benjamins]

There are a few thoughts I have - that I would like to share.

 

 

 

2. The media must stop fixating on every time a US soldier does something "wrong" to a detainee - Let one of them go over and put their life on the line every day and watch as their buddies get blown up.

 

4. Golda Meir once said to Anwar Saadat - There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Arab mothers think more about keeping their sons and daughters alive than using them to kill the Jews - ( quote is not exact).

 

As a previous poster noted - we will never be totally free of terrorists - but what is needed is universal condemnation - this is not about disenfranchised

people but people with an agenda.

 

I think the media doesn't fixate on soldiers that do something "wrong" to a detainee, and some have died in their duty to report in wars or other dangerous areas and indeed have witnessed their colleages being killed. They go for getting stories and compete with each other. Soldiers that commit nasty acts against civilians show that soldiers commit these nasty acts in war--giving a bunch of people so much power is bound to have some of them abuse it in ugly ways, or they just react in a way that they normally would not due to the many psychological factors that war does to people. I don't think the nationality matters, and it's another example of people getting hung up on defending "their own". In the Congo, soldiers rape mothers and daughters in front of husbands, a horrible example of abuse of power by a warring faction. And I would like people to consider that some civilians may do something sick they wouldn't normally do as a result of the various horrible things they witness happening in wars. These innocent civilians did not sign up for what the military personnel realized they may have to do if serving in a war.

 

I think most Arab mothers (or any mother of any nationality) are interested in keeping their loved ones alive and don't want them to become murderers. When that is not the case, maybe these are nasty people, but certainly not limited to any nationality, and in other cases, psychological examination of these people may reveal trama and perhaps them suffering loss caused by the other side. Then the human trait of vengeance surfaces.

 

 

I agree that terrorists have an agenda, and I've seen a strong comdenation from many areas of the globe. Most people playing some sort of role in other countries have an agenda. That doesn't mean that some of their points aren't shared by people who may be disenfranchised, however, their sick means is not supported by most disenfranchised.

[Osnab]

I am re-thinking the cruise to the Med. We all have seen what 9-11 did to this country, and now what's happening in London. Where/when is it going to be next? Guess I am just looking for opinions.

 

Katie

 

I understand where you're coming from, Katie, but you have to realize now that nowhere are we completely safe from terrorism. There have to be boundaries on where you travel (for instance, I would stay away from Iraq for now!) but it can happen anywhere, anytime.

 

I was in Greece on 9/11, and frankly, I felt safer there than I would have had I been in the US.

 

I can't tell you not to go on that cruise to the Med., but do remember that other parts of the world are much more accustomed to terrorism than we in the US are. If that's the only thing holding you back, my suggestion would be to go. The Med. is as safe now as it has been.........

Felicia

[Osnab]

One more thought - if you're not going to go to London, the Med, South America, or wherever because of the possibility of a terrorist attack, where will you go?

South Dakota? Texas? Bermuda?

My point is --- it's not safe anywhere. (I believe I said that before, just wanted to reiterate.)

Felicia

[Cruise99]

We are booked on Connie for the Baltic next May. We love London and are sadened by what has gone on this week.

 

We were in Paris on 911. The people of Europe and other countries we visited on our Trans-Atlantic were fantastic. Gave us an entirely different perspective on the whole ordeal. Most of the passengers were from NY since the ship was originally to dock there for our final destination. (It was changed to Boston).

 

I agree with everyone else about continuing to do what we enjoy.

 

Hope everyone stays safe and enjoys their cruises.

 

Gary

[benjamins]

This post is not about cruising Europe. It's about selective grieving. I don't think it is done maliciously or that people are bad because of this but it is a reality. A similar amount of Iraqi civilians were killed in a series of car bombs and other bombs this weekend. There's little sympathy being expressed on the boards, little to no human stories of the pain Iraqis are feeling. To me this shows that when it happens to non Westerners, in general we are not as sensitive (and it may be vice versa as well).

 

I, for one, would like to see a more human approach to any and all who die in the manner of those in London last week, and those in Iraq this weekend. While Iraq is the "theater" of war, it is the same pain and loss from a noncombative standpoint.

[Joyfredsblondecruiser]

We will be cruising out of Harwich, England Aug 31st, and I would not think of not going. I think that to cancel would be giving into terrorism. I also feel that there is no place that is completely safe from terrorists, they can be any place. If we decide to cancel, then what do we do close ourselves up in our houses, and maybe that isn`t even safe. I will not change my plans because of these terrorists. My Thoughts and prayers go out to the people in London. Happy Sailing, Joy