Jones Act Does it Again

[bphman]

I just saw a news report that a number of passengers wanted to leave the Crown Princess because of the Noro outbreak. They have the chance to leave the ship in another U.S. port but the debarking passengers have to pay $300 pp Jones Act penalty and lose the remainder of the cruise fare. Princess is playing hardball with them since they are continuing with the itinerary. I would think that Princess might want to save face but apparently not.

[wwcruisers]

You do know that you're on the Celebrity board, right? :confused:

[Gonzo70]

The Jones Act?!? :confused:

 

Was it a cruise ship or a cargo ship? Either you got the wrong act or the wrong industry?

[bphman]

I know I am on the Celebrity board and the Jones act applies to foreign flagged ships transporting passengers as well as cargo between 2 American ports. This is why New Jersey ran out of salt this winter because they had a load of salt in New England on a foreign ship but the Jones Act prevented the same ship from transporting it to NJ. They could not find an American ship to transport the salt. The act affects all cruise lines and is newsworthy IMHO.

[Kamloops50]

I just saw a news report that a number of passengers wanted to leave the Crown Princess because of the Noro outbreak. They have the chance to leave the ship in another U.S. port but the debarking passengers have to pay $300 pp Jones Act penalty and lose the remainder of the cruise fare. Princess is playing hardball with them since they are continuing with the itinerary. I would think that Princess might want to save face but apparently not.

 

The Crown was on a closed loop cruise. If you get off early on a closed loop especially before the foreign has been reached. You'll be in contravention of the dreaded Jones Act.

 

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[dkjretired]

I know I am on the Celebrity board and the Jones act applies to foreign flagged ships transporting passengers as well as cargo between 2 American ports. This is why New Jersey ran out of salt this winter because they had a load of salt in New England on a foreign ship but the Jones Act prevented the same ship from transporting it to NJ. They could not find an American ship to transport the salt. The act affects all cruise lines and is newsworthy IMHO.

 

Jones act has nothing to do with cruise ships that is a common mistake. Jones act only controls cargo ship. The passenger services act has jurisdiction over cruise ships.

[Kamloops50]

Jones act has nothing to do with cruise ships that is a common mistake. Jones act only controls cargo ship. The passenger services act has jurisdiction over cruise ships.

 

The PVSA is written into the Jones Act to cover passenger vessels .

 

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[bphman]

The Jones Act refers to the transport of cabotage that includes freight and passengers by foreign flagged ships. I think the horse is dead. Sorry I posted this.

[barnacle_boy]

The PVSA is written into the Jones Act to cover passenger vessels.

 

Wrong on several levels.

 

1. PVSA and Jones Act are complete separate pieces of legislation passed by different Congresses and signed into law by different presidents.

 

2. The PVSA predates the Jones Act by more than three decades (1886 vs. 1920).

[sasset]

Wrong on several levels.

 

1. PVSA and Jones Act are complete separate pieces of legislation passed by different Congresses and signed into law by different presidents.

 

2. The PVSA predates the Jones Act by more than three decades (1886 vs. 1920).

 

We post it over and over again: Passenger Vessel Services Act, AKA PVSA, enacted 1886; Merchant Marine Act of 1920, AKA Jones Act, enacted 1920.

[Charles4515]

Wrong on several levels.

 

1. PVSA and Jones Act are complete separate pieces of legislation passed by different Congresses and signed into law by different presidents.

 

2. The PVSA predates the Jones Act by more than three decades (1886 vs. 1920).

 

Yes, they are separate but cruise ships are regulated by both. That causes some of the confusion. In this particular case it is the PVSA being applied in that it regulates that the passengers can't depart that ship in another US port without violating the PVSA. The Jones Act regulates crew nationality and that a ship has to be built in the US to be US flagged. One way of explaining it is that because of the Jones Act cruise ships that are foreign flagged and foreign crewed are regulated by the PVSA.

[Prada Cowboy]

The fact is: it's a US law and has nothing to do with Princess! If they want to disembark for whatever reason they need to pay! If they do not like it take it up with the President of the USA!

 

 

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[alcpa1]

I am familiar with both acts created and still debated by our Congress. We won't get into how out of date the PVSA is BUT.....

There is absolutely no reason for Princess, or any other line to pay for the privilege of violating the law. In addition to the cost per passenger, which I think is $300, the cruise line would face additional penalties. Can you imagine what would happen if this sort of violation were to flourish?

And just how many of those passengers who wished to disembark had passports - another common thread here on CC.

[billie5]

Yes, they are separate but cruise ships are regulated by both. That causes some of the confusion. In this particular case it is the PVSA being applied in that it regulates that the passengers can't depart that ship in another US port without violating the PVSA. The Jones Act regulates crew nationality and that a ship has to be built in the US to be US flagged. One way of explaining it is that because of the Jones Act cruise ships that are foreign flagged and foreign crewed are regulated by the PVSA.

 

You can explain it that way, but you would be entirely wrong.

 

The question of being coastwise qualified, which is written into the original PVSA (It has been amended several times) has been defined by the Coast Guard ever since 1789, and certainly did not/does not require the Jones Act in any way. (Actually, when PVSA was first passed, it was the Bureau of Navigation, oddly enough, but that is irrelevant) It has always required construction of the vessel within the USA, and strict ownership rules. The requirements for USA flagging have changed numerous times, both before and after the Jones Act, by statute but also by administrative fiat and court decisions.

 

By decisions which well predate the Jones Act, PVSA would apply to the vessel under discussion -- with or without the Jones Act.

[Charles4515]

 

By decisions which well predate the Jones Act, PVSA would apply to the vessel under discussion -- with or without the Jones Act.

 

It is the PVSA that applies to the situation under discussion. But it is wrong to say that the Jones Act does not apply to cruise ships. The Jones Act not only requires the ships have to be constructed in the USA, the crews have to be US crews in order to be US flagged. In that respect the Jones Act applies to cruise ships. To flag their ships in the US the cruise companies would have to have the ships constructed in the US and hire only US citizens. As far as the transport of passengers the PVSA applies because they are foreign flagged. So there is an interrelation of the two acts. That is where many get confused and thinking it is the Jones Act being applied. The law that would be broken is the PVSA.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Charles4515

[kayehall]

I really don't understand any of this however I do have a question. What is or was the original purpose of these acts? And do they still have worth today or are we following rules made long time ago that are outdated?

[BillB48]

I really don't understand any of this however I do have a question. What is or was the original purpose of these acts? And do they still have worth today or are we following rules made long time ago that are outdated?

 

They do still provide protection even though at times I believe the level of enforcement is a bit ham fisted... as when a person stitches one too many B2B2Bs together and recently I read where a deceased passenger was taken of a Carnival ship at Key West and the surviving spouse was socked with the $300 because for some reason they did not wish to continue the cruise:eek:. These laws provide the framework which allows only US airlines to operate between US cities. The laws guarantee a certain level of US participation of commerce within its borders. Many other nations have cabotage laws as well, it is just that we feel at times readily feel the effect of our own PVSA and good ol' Jones and not those similar laws of other countries.

[curtdesilets]

Apparently she has been struck with Noro 4 times in the past 3 years. That's just in the US. We were on her a few years ago on a long awaited British isles cruise. She got it on the transatlantic from Ft Lauderdale and it continued into our cruise. No official figures, but some crew members were saying 300 were sick on our ship. CDC unfortunately does not report any Noro outbreaks disembarking in foreign ports.

 

Something is direly wrong with that ship, IMO to have this many outbreaks. I think it might be caused internally, perhaps in the galley??

[Charles4515]

I really don't understand any of this however I do have a question. What is or was the original purpose of these acts? And do they still have worth today or are we following rules made long time ago that are outdated?

 

Basically both acts are protectionist. To protect the US flagged fleet from foreign competition. To promote a US flagged fleet over other countries fleets. To support US shipyards over foreign shipyards. To support US labor over foreign labor.

 

Most maritime nations have similiar protectionist laws.

 

The acts still stand because they are supported by multiple business and political interests.

 

The US cruise companies won't come out and say so but they likely don't want to change the status quo because being foriegn flagged means they don't have to follow many US laws.

 

As far as changing the law it could be a question of being careful of what you wish for. You could have lots of new itineraries (but would they really be that great?) but then the prices might go up if the cruise lines have to apply US laws, regulations and can't avoid US taxes.

 

It is a protectionism versus free trade issue.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Charles4515

[Cruise Junky]

Apparently she has been struck with Noro 4 times in the past 3 years. That's just in the US. We were on her a few years ago on a long awaited British isles cruise. She got it on the transatlantic from Ft Lauderdale and it continued into our cruise. No official figures, but some crew members were saying 300 were sick on our ship. CDC unfortunately does not report any Noro outbreaks disembarking in foreign ports.

 

Something is direly wrong with that ship, IMO to have this many outbreaks. I think it might be caused internally, perhaps in the galley??

 

Ships don't get diseases, people do. People bring it on and spread it.

[Charles4515]

Apparently she has been struck with Noro 4 times in the past 3 years. That's just in the US. We were on her a few years ago on a long awaited British isles cruise. She got it on the transatlantic from Ft Lauderdale and it continued into our cruise. No official figures, but some crew members were saying 300 were sick on our ship. CDC unfortunately does not report any Noro outbreaks disembarking in foreign ports.

 

Something is direly wrong with that ship, IMO to have this many outbreaks. I think it might be caused internally, perhaps in the galley??

 

I have been on Crown Princess three times and never got sick. Nor were there outbreaks on my sailings. That said I don't intend to book that ship in the foreseeable future! Too many outbreaks on her. The cruise lines blame the passengers for bringing it onboard but others do think the outbreaks are caused by improper food handling. Either reason could be the cause.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Charles4515

[Charles4515]

Ships don't get diseases, people do. People bring it on and spread it.

 

That is the cruise line "political line", blame the passengers. But improper food handling can also be the cause of the spread.

[denims]

This thread is giving me a headache!!!:(:rolleyes::D

[SantaFeFan]

That is the cruise line "political line", blame the passengers. But improper food handling can also be the cause of the spread.

 

Nope. It's just the people, only just the people, and will always be just the people. If nobody has it when they boarded, nobody will get it. It has NOTHING to do with "improper food handling", other than sick people infecting the food because THEY handled it.

 

Of course, the "political line" of blaming the big, bad, uncaring cruise line is the default position for some people. After all, it's never our fault, it's always the fault of the "other guy", in this case, the evil, greedy cruise lines.

 

I have been on Crown Princess three times and never got sick. Nor were there outbreaks on my sailings. That said I don't intend to book that ship in the foreseeable future! Too many outbreaks on her. The cruise lines blame the passengers for bringing it onboard but others do think the outbreaks are caused by improper food handling. Either reason could be the cause.

 

Only misinformed, blame-it-on-someone-else conspiracy theorists think that. Informed people know better.

Edited April 12, 2014 by SantaFeFan

[Kamloops50]

Nope. It's just the people, only just the people, and will always be just the people. If nobody has it when they boarded, nobody will get it. It has NOTHING to do with "improper food handling", other than sick people infecting the food because THEY handled it.

 

Of course, the "political line" of blaming the big, bad, uncaring cruise line is the default position for some people. After all, it's never our fault, it's always the fault of the "other guy", in this case, the evil, greedy cruise lines.

 

 

 

Only misinformed, blame-it-on-someone-else conspiracy theorists think that. Informed people know better.

 

Most cases of Noro come with passengers at embarkation. Some will come on with a minor stomach ache and n9t mention it on the medical questionnaire.

I've seen people boarding that obviously sick and still say that they are fine.

 

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