Why not redefine "formal"?

[Daxxx]

Thank you Peaches, you have help me greatly. I have been running around trying to get information about renting and all I had to do was make one post here and volia!

Thanks again

Daxxx

[trubey]

When we were on the Prinsendam last year, there was a Brazilian writer and his wife who were refused admittance to dinner on Formal Night because the gentleman was not wearing a suit or tuxedo. He was wearing a Yabarra (I think that's the correct spelling) which is a fine cotton shirt with counted-thread embroidery, very expensive and -- formal. You would wear one to your Daughter's wedding, for instance.

Perhaps he should have conformed to the 'Local' fashion. Perhaps not. Is a Scot in a kilt much different?

Lane

[gizmo]

Could it be Guayberra? Here is link to different spellings and pictures of the shirts.

[url="http://www.locostyle.com/"]http://www.locostyle.com/[/url]

There was someone who posts on this board that wore them on a formal night with no problem. It was probably a Caribbean cruise.

Trubey,

You have a point. How is a Scott in a kilt any different? These guayberra are considered formal in some cultures.

[BCEagle78]

This thread brought back memories of the never-ending debate on this topic. Superstein61 was usually deeply involved in this and other topics where he was always controversial...

What happened to him? At least occasionally his responses were entertaining.

[sail7seas]

[quote name='gizmo']Could it be Guayberra? Here is link to different spellings and pictures of the shirts.




[url="http://www.locostyle.com/"]http://www.locostyle.com/[/url]

There was someone who posts on this board that wore them on a formal night with no problem. It was probably a Caribbean cruise.

Trubey,

You have a point. How is a Scott in a kilt any different? These guayberra are considered formal in some cultures.[/QUOTE]



[b][font=Comic Sans MS]We have a poster here who wore a kilt for formal night on an Ocean Princess cruise where we met I really enjoyed meeting him on that cruise and know that he has been cruising HAL in recent years, as well as other cruiselines. I think he always wears his kilt on formal nights and looks fabulous. IMO (I'll leave it to him to identify himself if he chooses.)[/font][/b]

[b][font=Comic Sans MS]Personally, I welcome gentlemen wearing formal wear such as Dress Blues (Army) and Navy formal wear etc as well as Kilts. Maybe I make the distinction in my mind as those 'outfits' include a jacket. The guayberra seems very casual in our culture as there is no jacket???[/font][/b]
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[peaches from georgia]

[quote name='gizmo']

You have a point. How is a Scott in a kilt any different? These guayberra are considered formal in some cultures.[/QUOTE]
How about Bermuda shorts worn by a Bermudian on formal nights? That is their national dress and Bermuda shorts are worn with coat and tie in Bermuda all the time.

I think that would be fine as would kilts on a Scot. Our pastor is from Scotland and I would never think it wrong for him to wear his full Scottish national dress on formal night on any ship.

[CDRMark]

As a true kilt outfit requires a knife in the stocking, (the Skean Dhu), one must be careful in ones argument with a Scot so dressed.:)

S7S, I agree that it seems like the definition of 'formal' includes a jacket and neckwear in this culture (which of course is the culture in which we are cruising).

Cheers
MarkB

[fridayeyes]

I think the Mexican wedding shirts are just fine for formal attire. I realize that they look 'casual' to American and European eyes, but I do not believe we should judge styles of dress in other cultures by our own standards. I think glittering saris are beautiful and also appropriate, etc. I would even go so far as to say they are appropriate for people not of that culture.

IMHO, we are not cruising in Western culture. We are cruising in international culture, as evidenced by international ship registries and ports of call in many countries where local formal dress customs are different. The ships' clientele may be dominated by Americans numerically, but to me, that doesn't mean it's 'Western'.

Cheers,

Friday

[peaches from georgia]

So, if we are cruising in a culture where jacket and neckwear are required on formal nights regardless of one's nationality, then on every night are Bermuda shorts out of line if worn by a Bermudian (with jacket on informal and jacket and tie on formal nights)? The dress code does say 'no shorts' for dinner in the dining room on any night. Are there exceptions?

Anyone who has been to Bermuda is aware how well-dressed Bermudians are in their shorts, for both business and dress wear. Would anyone really object to this on a cruise?

[fridayeyes]

I would not object. Unfortunately, I think there might be a problem getting into the dining room and if there were, I think it would be a cultural mistake. Yes, this leads to relativism and yes, I expect that most of the board will disagree with me. However, the attire described is appropriately formal in the person's home culture and should therefore meet the definition of 'formal' for the sake of formal night.

Cheers,

Friday

[cruznon]

[font=Comic Sans MS][b]Guess I'm just a traditionalist. I LOVE the formal nights! [/b][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][b]Yes, it is an extra effort sometimes to put on the formal gear after a relaxing day, but the atmosphere on a formal night at sea is so lovely![/b][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][b]Everyone is in their finery (OK, almost everyone), the smiles, families being photographed together,etc. Seeing kids in suits and party dresses--beaming. It's wonderful entering the dining room knowing this is a special evening.[/b][/font]
[font=Comic Sans MS][b]To me, part of a cruise is not just the modern-day amenities, but the nod to cruising in the past--when travel was special. Taking a cruise for us is a special event--not just a convenient way to get from one place to another.[/b][/font]
[b][font=Comic Sans MS]As my DH says, "It's such a privilege to step aboard a beautiful ship!":D [/font][/b]
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[fridayeyes]

I love them too. I have several gowns that only get worn on cruises, and several that I've bought for future curises that I haven't worn yet. :) I have plenty of basic black, but my tastes also run to magenta crushed velvet with a strapless, boned bodice, etc. I have one Vera Wang silk gown in champagne beige that I found *very* much on sale. (Somebody at Nordies ran a garment rack over it, resulting in (small) tire marks and minor damage. Even after cleaning and mending costs, it will have been about 85% off. :) ) I'm actually a bit worried it might be over the top on some lines. You can bet your buttons that I'll be wearing it as soon as it fits, though!

I would also love to wear a really fine, formal kimono or a sari if I had them.

Cheers,

Friday

[CDRMark]

:confused: I am not so insular as to believe that Western implies American, unless one is speaking Cowboys and Native Americans....:)
"Formal" is relatively consistent (fashion excepted) from Moscow west to Vancouver.
MarkB

[sail7seas]

[quote name='peaches from georgia']How about Bermuda shorts worn by a Bermudian on formal nights? That is their national dress and Bermuda shorts are worn with coat and tie in Bermuda all the time.

I think that would be fine as would kilts on a Scot. Our pastor is from Scotland and I would never think it wrong for him to wear his full Scottish national dress on formal night on any ship.[/QUOTE]

[b][font=Comic Sans MS]It is my understanding that Bermuda shorts are their 'national dress' for daytime; I do not believe that is considered formal by people in Bermuda. If they do not consider it formal, I don't think we should either.[/font][/b]
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[b][font=Comic Sans MS]I believe I posted that I thought the poster from this Board who wore his Kilt on formal night on Ocean Princess looked GREAT IMO[/font][/b]

[sail7seas]

[b][font=Comic Sans MS]I would think the beautiful (and often very intricate) sari would be fabulous on formal night.[/font][/b]


[b][font=Comic Sans MS]I also would love to see beautiful kimono worn by women.[/font][/b]
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[b][font=Comic Sans MS]In other cultures, those dresses are considered formal. [/font][/b]

[Tarkus]

as somebody who has done a good bit of business in bermuda i can attest that the traditional blue blazer and bermuda shorts is business attire but most definitely not considered formal attire. that mode of dress would be appropriate (imo) on nights where men are required to have jacket and tie; but they would defer to a traditional tux for formalwear (at least in my experience).

btw, i'm not at all a fan of the process of dress-up... but you know it's there when you buy into this ship so you can't complain too loudly - otherwise, go signup for windjammer or similar where it's casual 24/7. as far as what's considered formal changing? i'm sure that'll happen, but it's a slow, arduous process (as in generations). not likely gonna see it happen in my lifetime! ;)

[peaches from georgia]

[quote name='Tarkus']as somebody who has done a good bit of business in bermuda i can attest that the traditional blue blazer and bermuda shorts is business attire but most definitely not considered formal attire. that mode of dress would be appropriate (imo) on nights where men are required to have jacket and tie; but they would defer to a traditional tux for formalwear (at least in my experience).
[/QUOTE]
Thank you for sharing your experience. I will amend my question and exclude formal nights and ask- should the dress codes for casual and informal nights be amended so that Bermuda shorts could be worn by a Bermudian in the dining room with appropriate shirt on casual nights and jacket (w/ or w/out tie) on informal nights? I can't imagine anyone objecting.

[gizmo]

[quote name='sail7seas'][b][font=Comic Sans MS]I would think the beautiful (and often very intricate) sari would be fabulous on formal night.[/font][/b]
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I have seen saris on more than one cruise and they were beautiful. The ones worn on formal nights were gorgeous.

[dakrewser]

It really doesn't matter what's considered "formal" in Bermuda, Mexico or Fiji - HAL (and other cruise lines) define what they mean by "formal" and that's the guideline to go by.

[gizmo]

[quote name='user8']I just got off the Statendam and we had two formal evenings. I wore my tux the first night and felt out of place as there were so few other men wearing them. I opted for a coat and tie the second formal night and was definitely with the majority- at least for the 6:15 dining time. [b]I did not see a single tux in the dining room except for the staff people.[/b]

[/QUOTE]

I think this might be a first also.

[m steve]

Getting into tux on the ship gives you a special feeling that you don't have in just a suit. Don't you want to walk into the casino looking for the Bacarat table, the beautiful young woman being kept by the cruel spy or feel that Ingrid Bergman will walk over to you playing your best Cary Grant role?
I remember just a few years ago when you had to be in formal dress to enter the casino in Nassau. Some traditions deserve to fade away but dressing for dinner is still charming. I wear formal wear at least 8 times a year and had a custon made tux made in Hong Kong. Well worth the cost vs. renting. Even buying one at Men's Wearhouse or a discount store more than pays for itself after 2 wearings.

[xpcdoojk]

This really is a thread that won't die.:(

Enforce the dining code, and lets redefine respect, because that is really what the problem is, and it is a lack of....

jc:D :D

[SantaAna,CA]

Actually I am quite fond of 17th and 18th century fashion, and often wonder what people would think when they see the way we dress today. I'm not talking about "neat casual", but taking no care at all with one's appearance.

However, a person has a choice how to dress and that's great, diversity is a good thing! However, I don't get much of a chance to dress up, so I'm looking forward to the formal nights on my upcoming cruise in August. For those who don't care to dress up, the Lido is always available!

:) Jane

[annebill]

How in the world did this old antique thread get cranked up again ? It wasn't me. Just to be clear, I NEVER advocated doing away with formal--just wondered if you would be broadminded enough to allow others' ideas of formal on a cruise ship. Many of you have proven by your posts to be very liberal minded and tolerant of almost any other choices fellow pax may make, but not when it comes to this question. I say again, I always take my tux, but would not be averse to wearing a spiffy, formal guayabera. Let's put this thing to bed again as no minds are likely to be changed and just about everything that can be said on the subject has been said.

[SantaAna,CA]

I'm sorry, I don't think it's either intolerant or narrow minded (the opposite of broadminded, I would guess!) to like the formal night guidelines the way they are.

If you ask a question, you have to realize not everyone is going to agree with you. Disagreeing doesn't render a person intolerant, it just means they have a different opinion. No, I don't think the formal rules should be changed to, "whatever is formal for you". I think they're great the way they are.

Best wishes,

Jane :)