Why not redefine "formal"?

[argosy]

I have no issues with the current definition of formalwear. I'm sure that someday, formalwear will mean something entirely different...but until it does change...it is what it is.

Also, Thurston Howell the III and his wife 'Lovey' would not like for you to redefine 'formalwear.'

;-)

[tumeroll]

I have come late to this post but if the original poster does not like formal attire, may I suggest a cruise on any NCL ship where Wal-mart casual is the dress of chice even for formal nights.
Let's try to keep HAL and Cunard as elegant as possible.

[Scrumpy]

The OP did NOT have a problem with traditional formalwear. You should have read the original post. The question was about formal dress that was appropriate for other cultures being worn on formal nights. It was about re-defining formal wear to include some other forms of, often equally or more elegant, attire. It was NOT about wearing shorts and flip-flops!

[fridayeyes]

LOL, Scrumpy. You know no 'appropriate attire' thread would be complete with out a reference to Wal-Mart and flip-flops (jeans and shorts on even numbered days).

*conspiratorial whisper*

I have even heard that there's a giant slot machine on the back end side of the servers that randomly selects a CC poster to make the obligatory flip-flop/jeans/Wal-Mart comment. If you don't comply, secret ninja attack squads will be sent on your next cruise to 'take care' of you.

Yeah, you just keep on thinking all those black outfits on formal nights are tuxes....

*glances nervously over her shoulder*

Now, where's that sarcasm smiley.... :D

Cheers,

Friday

[Scrumpy]

Friday - What was I thinking? Sorry! What would a discussion of attire be without the obligatory snide comments about Wal-Mart and the bashing of other cruise lines? ;) Too funny. I will comply with "instructions" and mention that dress codes policies will now be enforced by throwing offenders overboard.
*frantically pacing and wringing hands*
Do you think that will satisfy the powers-that-be?
:D

[caribbean girl]

The interesting thing is that it would appear that we (the royal) seem to worry about all this stuff infinitely more that the actual 'powers that be'.;)

[fridayeyes]

Well, I *did* find a very nice pair of flip-flops for half off at my school bookstore yesterday. The footbeds are made of thin bamboo, with pink embroidered flowers. The straps are pink leather. I'm going to use them for the beach and around the house, tho. :) I'd hate to draw the notice of the hit squad. :D

Scrumpy, I think that's best. If we advocated keel-hauling, it might look over the top, you know? ;)

Cheers,

Friday, who is giddy as a school girl because her cruise leaves tomorrow!

[tumeroll]

Scrubby and Kara-bean - Hard to tell from your recent posts if you subscribe to the liberal dumb it down school and I do not have time to surf through 160 posts to find out so if the Birkenstock fits wear it. If not my apology.

When I read the original post it appeared that the poster was looking to find a way out of the formal attire deal. Following your concept, there are some cultures still on this planet where a clean loin cloth and better body paint would be a formal night and what do we do with the nudist culture and their formal night.

Better that on fine ships we all try to dress in our finest according to tradition of the line and not try to justify ways to get around it because we do not want to . As I suggested having just returned from a 15 day voyage through Wal-Mart land, there are places where such attire is encouraged. Please head in that direction if that is your bent. I would hope that opie would reconsider and wear a fine tailored tuxedo on his next sailing.

[annebill]

Thank you, Scrumpy. I can't understand why so many people have so much trouble understanding what I thought was clearly stated in proper English. I suppose they look down on every other culture and others' values as inferior to the American standard, and they are certainly unwilling to let the American male have any choice in what is considered "formal". Compare to the choices the fairer sex has--pants, long gowns, short gowns ,blouses, jeweled jackets, fancy slippers, spiked heels, etc., etc. I certainly never implied that "formal" should be jeans, shorts, t-shirts or any other such ridiculous charges. What if we suddenly decreed that only hooped long gowns would be considered "formal" for women ? I can hear these same people screaming to high heaven.

[tumeroll]

Have you tried the long gown?

[Scrumpy]

Friday,
Your shoes sound lovely ! My only "flip-flops" are black, beaded and have a small heel :) They will not make an appearance on formal night unless there are unfortunate blister incidents. I think we will pass inspection.

Oh, for the days of yore when people walked the plank, were whipped for transgressions, and press-ganged into service... I suppose you're right. Things just aren't like they used to be.

[quote name='fridayeyes']Well, I *did* find a very nice pair of flip-flops for half off at my school bookstore yesterday. The footbeds are made of thin bamboo, with pink embroidered flowers. The straps are pink leather. I'm going to use them for the beach and around the house, tho. :) I'd hate to draw the notice of the hit squad. :D

Scrumpy, I think that's best. If we advocated keel-hauling, it might look over the top, you know? ;)

Cheers,

Friday, who is giddy as a school girl because her cruise leaves tomorrow![/QUOTE]

[Scrumpy]

You're welcome. IMHO: There are some who appear incapable of seeing the world outside their own narrow experience. There are those who fear change, believing it is inherently evil. Others are simply looking for a fight. Such is life - a short, precious experience too valuable to be wasted squabbling with those who seek discord rather than harmony.:) I am reminded of a scene in Parenthood when the children's play was disrupted when a sibling ran onstage to "protect" his sibling. A few people believed the production was ruined. Others laughed and appreciated the spontaneity and charm of children. It's obvious which camp I prefer.

I like hoop skirts, but sitting down while wearing one is tricky ;)

[quote name='annebill']Thank you, Scrumpy. I can't understand why so many people have so much trouble understanding what I thought was clearly stated in proper English. I suppose they look down on every other culture and others' values as inferior to the American standard, and they are certainly unwilling to let the American male have any choice in what is considered "formal". Compare to the choices the fairer sex has--pants, long gowns, short gowns ,blouses, jeweled jackets, fancy slippers, spiked heels, etc., etc. I certainly never implied that "formal" should be jeans, shorts, t-shirts or any other such ridiculous charges. What if we suddenly decreed that only hooped long gowns would be considered "formal" for women ? I can hear these same people screaming to high heaven.[/QUOTE]

[dakrewser]

[quote name='Scrumpy']You're welcome. IMHO: There are some who appear incapable of seeing the world outside their own narrow experience. There are those who fear change, believing it is inherently evil. Others are simply looking for a fight. [/QUOTE]

And some (myself included) take the words of the cruise line at face value - no more, no less. Should you convince the powers that be that a guayabara (or a well-pressed loincloth) should be included in their definition of "formal", then I'd have no objection.

[cruisecrasy]

Why do people who do not wish to dress formally want to go to the place where it is required and why do people keep questioning what is meant by 'formal' when it is clearly stated in any dictionary? (By the way - technically tuxs are not formalwear - merely semi-formal. White tie and tails are 'formal' for men as are long gowns with 12 button gloves for ladies - Ahhh the good ol' days)...!!

[Scrumpy]

Of course; and that's not a problem. I didn't go through every possible reason, just the ones that struck me at the time. I apologize for the omission, but I didn't spend a whole lot of time on that post, to be frank. I think it's pretty interesting that many, if not most, people seem to accept kilts, though. Seems a lot will pick and choose the dress they find acceptable, even when it falls outside the cruise lines' recommendations. This is one of those cases where some people are not entirely consistent.

These dress code threads fascinate me, honestly. A person has said something directly to me (no, not you) that was fairly tacky. It's bizarre to see someone appear to be so upset over this. The Internet, and message boards specifically, allow for the most interesting people-watching, IMHO. It's like an ongoing sociological experiment and I get a bang out of it most of the time. The rude comments remind of what people do in their cars - cutting in line. Not many people would walk to the front of the line at the movie theater and shove right in. People do it in cars all the time. They feel safer. It's partly Internet anonymity that makes all of this otherwise unacceptably confrontational behavior somehow tolerated. I am constantly looking for the missing pieces, the clues to people's personalities, their values, etc. - which has nothing to do with anything except that when I feel like someone is purposely trying to wind me up, I end up wanting to crawl inside their mind, learn their personal history and figure out why. The original disagreement usually ends up falling to the bottom of the list of things I'm pondering...

Hmmm, about that loincloth; aren't we getting dangerously close to a discussion about thong bathing suits? ;) Those make all the formal threads (and booze smuggling threads) look tame...

[quote name='dakrewser']And some (myself included) take the words of the cruise line at face value - no more, no less. Should you convince the powers that be that a guayabara (or a well-pressed loincloth) should be included in their definition of "formal", then I'd have no objection.[/QUOTE]

[Scrumpy]

Why is it wrong to ask questions? Why would someone forgo cruising because of one element that doesn't appeal to them? I hate airports, but my world would be tiny if I didn't use them to get where I want to go. Some of us always probe, analyze and want to know "who", "what", "when", "where", "how" and "why". If we were all the same and all thought the same, life would be incredibly tedious.
[quote name='cruisecrasy']Why do people who do not wish to dress formally want to go to the place where it is required and why do people keep questioning what is meant by 'formal' when it is clearly stated in any dictionary? (By the way - technically tuxs are not formalwear - merely semi-formal. White tie and tails are 'formal' for men as are long gowns with 12 button gloves for ladies - Ahhh the good ol' days)...!![/QUOTE]

[xpcdoojk]

Scrumpy, why should someone from Scotland not be allowed to wear their own formal wear. IE it is their traditional formal wear. I certainly would expect a Seik to wear the head dress and the women a Sari. I certainly would not expect them to change from their traditional formal dress, and neither does the cruiselines. In other words while these examples may be outside the scope of what we in the US consider formal or technically semi-formal wear they are in fact formal wear. It is, also, appropriate to wear your dress uniform if you are a member of the active armed forces. It is really easy to determine what is appropriate, and it is even easier to determine what is inappropriate.

Again, this thread is older than dirt. The discussion has been had a bazillion times, and why are people so busy trying to throw out red herrings like kilts into a discussion that is and always will be about respect or the lack of it. It is a simple matter. If you dress appropriately you are showing respect to the cruiseline and your fellow passengers, if you dress like Larry the Cable guy at formal night, you are clearly showing the same disrespect. It is a simple thing really, and everything else is just arguements without substance. JMHO.

jc

I am wondering how many formal discussions have taken place in these forums, I am betting it would number in the tens of thousands of threads.:rolleyes:

[annebill]

xpcdoojk, I agree that this old thread has more than had its day. As the OP, it is frustrating to have my comments continually mischaracterized and twisted. To those who do so, I ask that you look up the word "redefine".I have never advocated doing away with "formal" dress on HAL ships. There are rigid nitpickers who repeatedly say follow HAL's guidlines, which state "dark suits or tuxedos" recommended for gentlemen on "formal" nights. As you point out, the guidlines say nothing about dress military uniforms, dress kilts or anything else. So, I suppose dakrewser and the others of that persuasion must be terribly upset when they see those people who are not in compliance with the guidlines. I have seen dress uniforms on practically every HAL cruise I've been on. Interesting that you mention Sikhs. I was once priveledged to attend a seminar given by a renowned Sikh physician whose family was along. Although U.S. citizens, they maintained the Sikh customs and traditions. The father and 12 year old son wore turbans at all times, indoors and out--even in the pool. Even in the dining room on dressy nights. The wife wore the traditional femine garb with scarf. These people would have sent the rigid "HAL guidlines" crowd into a tailspin, I'm sure, just as someone from Latin America in a dressy guayaberra would.No mention in "HAL guidlines", you see, so therefore improper in the extreme. Perhaps cases for "redefine" ?

Now some posters here are hung up on loin cloths. That wouldn't appeal to me but if it does to them then I suggest a nice zebra skin cloak and leopard skin hat to go with it, at least on formal nights.

[dakrewser]

[quote name='Scrumpy']I think it's pretty interesting that many, if not most, people seem to accept kilts, though. Seems a lot will pick and choose the dress they find acceptable, even when it falls outside the cruise lines' recommendations.
[/QUOTE]

Actually, if you check Scottish formal kit it fully meets the description of "formal" that HAL uses.


xpcdoojk: Sorry, but the outfits you describe do not conform to the definition for formal on board a HAL ship. There is nothing in the definition that allows for the equivalent in some other culture. Once you start down that road, there's nothing to stop the person in a "formal" loin cloth and freshened body paint!

[xpcdoojk]

[quote name='annebill']xpcdoojk, I agree that this old thread has more than had its day. As the OP, it is frustrating to have my comments continually mischaracterized and twisted. To those who do so, I ask that you look up the word "redefine".I have never advocated doing away with "formal" dress on HAL ships. There are rigid nitpickers who repeatedly say follow HAL's guidlines, which state "dark suits or tuxedos" recommended for gentlemen on "formal" nights. As you point out, the guidlines say nothing about dress military uniforms, dress kilts or anything else. So, I suppose dakrewser and the others of that persuasion must be terribly upset when they see those people who are not in compliance with the guidlines. I have seen dress uniforms on practically every HAL cruise I've been on. Interesting that you mention Sikhs. I was once priveledged to attend a seminar given by a renowned Sikh physician whose family was along. Although U.S. citizens, they maintained the Sikh customs and traditions. The father and 12 year old son wore turbans at all times, indoors and out--even in the pool. Even in the dining room on dressy nights. The wife wore the traditional femine garb with scarf. These people would have sent the rigid "HAL guidlines" crowd into a tailspin, I'm sure, just as someone from Latin America in a dressy guayaberra would.No mention in "HAL guidlines", you see, so therefore improper in the extreme. Perhaps cases for "redefine" ?

Now some posters here are hung up on loin cloths. That wouldn't appeal to me but if it does to them then I suggest a nice zebra skin cloak and leopard skin hat to go with it, at least on formal nights.[/QUOTE]

I agree, and Dave is correcting me as we type. I suppose if some head hunters were discovered in Borneo and they booked a HAL cruise, they might not even show up in a loin cloth.:eek: ;) I really think the loin cloth is just as much a red herring as the kilts. If people are on a cruise and they are dressed in their cultures version of formal wear, I can't imagine anyone questioning if they are dressed respectful of the traditions. Most of these traditions have existed for hundreds of years for sea-faring travelers. I am pretty sure if the Sultan of Brunei were on one of his majesties ships a century ago, that the captain would not force the sultan into coat and tails for dinner on the ship with the officers for a formal dinner. This is completely different from me showing up in my flip flops torn jean shorts and a dirty t-shirt. A sikh man in his version of formal dress will never stand out as a display of disrespect(of course, he will stand out due to being uniquely dressed but still respectable). However, me in my tshirt will be and is disrespectful.

Therefore the extremes on this discussion do not resolve any of the real world issues. These issues are maintaining the wonderful traditions that have survived centuries in order to keep a cruise different from a week at Sandals. This includes the formal atmosphere to which compromises have been made as cruising has increased in popularity. The other extreme is the selfish nature of some passengers of not conforming to the respectful code. In a selfish flaunting of their defiance of social standards and codes they intentionally inflame the situation, both in these forums regularly and occassionally on a cruise. Both sides have valid points of view, but the extreme postitions of either are never going to convince the majority. :(

jc

[Scrumpy]

They should be, IMHO. However, the HAL docs say quite distinctly " men usually business suits or tuxedos...Although business suits or tuxedos are suggested attire for formal evening, they are certainly not required. You are welcome to wear a jacket and tie on formal nights". I wouldn't have thought that the formal Scottish dress TECHNICALLY fell into that category. I was observing that while people may be flexible in some circumstances, they pick the attire of which they personally approve. I think we are on the same page with this. People use extreme examples and the old "slippery slope", but I am not falling for it.

[quote name='xpcdoojk']Scrumpy, why should someone from Scotland not be allowed to wear their own formal wear. IE it is their traditional formal wear. I certainly would expect a Seik to wear the head dress and the women a Sari. I certainly would not expect them to change from their traditional formal dress, and neither does the cruiselines. In other words while these examples may be outside the scope of what we in the US consider formal or technically semi-formal wear they are in fact formal wear. It is, also, appropriate to wear your dress uniform if you are a member of the active armed forces. It is really easy to determine what is appropriate, and it is even easier to determine what is inappropriate.


Again, this thread is older than dirt. The discussion has been had a bazillion times, and why are people so busy trying to throw out red herrings like kilts into a discussion that is and always will be about respect or the lack of it. It is a simple matter. If you dress appropriately you are showing respect to the cruiseline and your fellow passengers, if you dress like Larry the Cable guy at formal night, you are clearly showing the same disrespect. It is a simple thing really, and everything else is just arguements without substance. JMHO.

jc

I am wondering how many formal discussions have taken place in these forums, I am betting it would number in the tens of thousands of threads.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

[Scrumpy]

You'll have to walk me through that one, Dave. I don't see it.
[quote name='dakrewser']Actually, if you check Scottish formal kit it fully meets the description of "formal" that HAL uses.[/QUOTE]

[RevNeal]

[IMG]http://www.revneal.org/Resources/emoticons/Deadhorse.gif[/IMG]

Poor horse ... poor horse.
Yes, I enjoy playing on this subject too ... but this thread needs to be sent to the glue factory.

[xpcdoojk]

[quote name='revneal'][img]http://www.revneal.org/Resources/emoticons/Deadhorse.gif[/img]

Poor horse ... poor horse.
Yes, I enjoy playing on this subject too ... but this thread needs to be sent to the glue factory.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Revneal, I always quit these topics when the dead horse smiley is posted, and that is the best one yet!:D This entire topic is so dead, and then we have the obligatory formal poll up in this forum. It gets really really tiresome after all of these years. I truly don't care what people wear at any time, I reserve to myself the right to laugh my a$$ off at them at anytime while on a cruise. I just get sick of all of the justifications on the topic. :D

jc

[dakrewser]

[quote name='Scrumpy']You'll have to walk me through that one, Dave. I don't see it.[/QUOTE]

Note the jacket and tie.....

[img]http://www.warwicks.net/images/kilt500.jpg[/img]