Out of control dog on the Amsterdam

[sapper1]

I think this may rank right up there with the blender thread.

[JB&JLG74]

If this situation is still continuing, and it appears there are a number of passengers impacted or upset by it - they should get together as a group and demand to speak to the Captain or Hotel Director, and perhaps threaten to sue for damages. That might make them sit up and take notice.

Don't think that is going to happen.

A while back the captain, hotel director, culinary manager, and cruise director had general Q&A sessions. I was at the one for 5 stars. When asked about the dog they said they had thought about what to say if asked and they decided not to say anything. Next question, they said.

I heard a rumor that the CC Meet & Great leader went to Amsterdam's management purportedly on behalf of our rather large group and was looking to meet with them but the last I'd heard nothing had been scheduled.

[Stratheden]

Don't think that is going to happen.

A while back the captain, hotel director, culinary manager, and cruise director had general Q&A sessions. I was at the one for 5 stars. When asked about the dog they said they had thought about what to say if asked and they decided not to say anything. Next question, they said.

I heard a rumor that the CC Meet & Great leader went to Amsterdam's management purportedly on behalf of our rather large group and was looking to meet with them but the last I'd heard nothing had been scheduled.

 

If nothing is ever scheduled, each and everyone of your large group should write to Guest Relations @ Seattle and individually calmly report on what happened along with photos if possible. It shouldn't be hard to take photos with iPhones in the Lido etc.

[House_Atreides]

Wow! What an awful experience for the PAX and dog!

 

I'm putting my two cents in here because I have a service animal (yellow lab). She was originally trained to detect lows in my blood sugar (I am a diabetic). However as time has passed, I have some mobility issues, and she is now trained to pick things up off the floor for me, open drawers and cabinets, and to help me up and down stairs. She is now 8 years old and is still certified; she is re-tested every two years (as well as me).

 

I am absolutely appalled at this outright defiance/disrespect of the PAX, the dog and the ADA. My dog went through years of training (along with me as her handler) and it is an insult to me also when people abuse the system this way.

 

As far as cruising, I haven't had a need to take her onboard with me yet. She is instrumental in my day-to-day living, however when I am traveling I have to be extra careful of lows in my blood sugar (the problem is, I don't feel those "lows" until I am so low that I pass out). I must test at least 6-7 times a day and also at night when she isn't around. Honey (the dog) will paw at my lap, or bark, and not leave me alone until I test and she sees that I am eating something once my blood sugar hits around 100. In her years of experience, she has also alerted me when my sugar goes above 160. She is an amazing animal. Numerous times she has woken me in the middle of the night to alert me.

 

I never, ever fly without my dog. When I am stressed, my sugars go wild. She goes almost everywhere with me.

 

That being said, I haven't taken her on any cruises because I have been afraid of international law and quarantine (spelling?) regulations upon my return to the states. I may have to take her on my next cruise in the spring, as it is an extended cruise (29 days). I will have a health certificate issued within 10 days of sailing.

 

Honey ALWAYS wears her pack in public, and was trained on a gentle leader (it is less stressful on the dog to be tied by the head rather than around the neck). In her pack she carries her water/food bowls, granola bars and candy for me, and her health/certification papers. When I cruise this will be no different than when I fly or go to the store. I have never been asked to remove my dog (or myself) from any establishment. She is better behaved than I am (except around chickens, she chases them re: the chicken jokes on this thread hahaha!).

 

Please folks, if your animal is not an ADA defined animal, leave it in someone's care. If you can afford to cruise, you MUST budget for your non-ADA certified animal to be cared for while you travel.

 

And here she is, working for me at one of many airports we frequent :)

[Queen of DaNile]

Great informative post Atreides. Thanks for sharing your wonderful relationship with a true ADA service dog.

[geocruiser]

Don't think that is going to happen.

A while back the captain, hotel director, culinary manager, and cruise director had general Q&A sessions. I was at the one for 5 stars. When asked about the dog they said they had thought about what to say if asked and they decided not to say anything. Next question, they said.

I heard a rumor that the CC Meet & Great leader went to Amsterdam's management purportedly on behalf of our rather large group and was looking to meet with them but the last I'd heard nothing had been scheduled.

 

With no help from on board the ship. PAX might have to get some outside help to correct this problem. Such as, home office, news paper/TV. I hope they have to go only to the home office.

[Lady Chew]

What about the health implications of this dog? I wonder if this will trigger a detailed health inspection of the ship when in San Diego.

 

This is exactly why people who are subjected to this kind of mis-behavior should take pictures and forward them to the appropriate health authorities as well as to HAL corporate ... perhaps if HAL (or any other line) had to face more detailed inspections because of not-service animals they might realize they need to be a little more careful about allowing them on board.

 

There are a lot of sea days on this particular trip. I would be dogging (pardon the pun) this person's doings about the ship, taking pictures and figuring out which state she was from so I could contact the appropriate authorities there about her abuse of the ADA.

 

My daughter is severely handicapped and there is nothing that makes me more angry then able-bodied/minded individuals cheating the system to get benefits or privileges or help that is meant for the truly handicapped.

[Ocean Dancer]

I just saw the posting where the Amsterdam will be in dry dock for a good 10 days............time enough to replace the carpeting, upostery (sp) and drool.

 

Please folks, many witnesses has posted here. Write to Seattle HQ with pictures. Start a petition now or on your roll call. Someone should "befriend" this woman to find out where she is from, get her email etc. Hal should not be allowed to sweep this under the rug.

 

 

DRY DOCKS AND CHARTERS

 

Amsterdam: 30 April 2015 - 10 May 2015 : dry dock in Grand Bahama Shipyard, Freeport, the Bahamas

[House_Atreides]

:) and right now she is catching a few winks before I go to bed

[serendipity1499]

This is exactly why people who are subjected to this kind of mis-behavior should take pictures and forward them to the appropriate health authorities as well as to HAL corporate ... perhaps if HAL (or any other line) had to face more detailed inspections because of not-service animals they might realize they need to be a little more careful about allowing them on board.

There are a lot of sea days on this particular trip. I would be dogging (pardon the pun) this person's doings about the ship, taking pictures and figuring out which state she was from so I could contact the appropriate authorities there about her abuse of the ADA.

 

My daughter is severely handicapped and there is nothing that makes me more angry then able-bodied/minded individuals cheating the system to get benefits or privileges or help that is meant for the truly handicapped.

 

I too have a handicapped Granddaughter who is in her 20's & needs help from her Mother & Father.. She has been unable to walk on her own since birth, still goes to therapy & uses crutches..

 

I agree with you for the most part, but disagree with you regarding HAL being more careful.. I bolded that sentence because I feel you are being unfair to HAL about what they should have done before permitting the Psgr to board..

 

I worked in the travel field & the rules by the ADA are in place when it comes to disabilities & service dogs.. A carrier is not permitted to ask what the Psgrs disability is.. They can only ask what tasks the service dog performs.. I'm sure in this case HAL's "Access & Compliance Dept." did everything required by the ADA regarding the proper papers for the dog.. HAL's statement is clear about Crew not being responsible or caring for the animal.. We have service dogs which are also Therapy dogs & one in our group took a Service Puppy in training aboard HAL.. They required reams of documentation & HAL provided an area for the dog to do his business..

 

IMO HAL perhaps has not educated the Capt. & crew about the handling of a misbehaving Psgr or animal.. Although in this case I agree it's the Psgr., not the poor dog..

 

I'm sure the Capt. & crew feel their hands are tied, but that imay be because they do not fully understand the ADA rules, or they may have restrictions about disembarking animals in a foreign port.. Perhaps, if they have documented (very important word) everything which was done by the Psgr & had backup documentation by other Psgrs, they would win in a court of law on discrimination.. But their hands could also be tied, because of having to disembark a Psgr & dog in a foreign country...I once had to appear in court on discrimination charges.. Our company won the case only because of my documentation & her immediate Supervisor's documentation.. Our company won the case only based on all of the documentation..

 

If the crew & the Capt. have not documented the misbehavior, then yes their hands are now tied!

 

The above is all speculation on my part, & it's important not to make unfair statements about this case when we don't have the full story..

Edited December 3, 2014 by serendipity1499

[Cruzin Terri]

Don't think that is going to happen.

A while back the captain, hotel director, culinary manager, and cruise director had general Q&A sessions. I was at the one for 5 stars. When asked about the dog they said they had thought about what to say if asked and they decided not to say anything. Next question, they said.

I heard a rumor that the CC Meet & Great leader went to Amsterdam's management purportedly on behalf of our rather large group and was looking to meet with them but the last I'd heard nothing had been scheduled.

 

I think the Captain and the HM are correct in not saying anything at the Q&A sessions. It's almost like reading them their Miranda rights. "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law." I think they are wise to keep quiet. If they said anything, it would be posted here and probably all over the news media. I am surprised CNN hasn't gotten it yet.

 

They are in a tough situation. It is a no win situation no matter how you look at it. It should never have happened and their hands are tied now.

 

In all probability, they may have dealt with the situation quietly and felt it better that way. It won't make the news and it is not fodder for discussion here or in the media, but probably will save HAL from another lawsuit.

Terri

[BeagleOne]

It sounds like the passenger is the real problem, not the dog...although pooping outside the designated area and barking would be annoying...but not the dog's fault. Since the poor dog is clearly NOT a service dog, she must have been bewildered by her surroundings and not sure what to do. How cruel to leave her stuck in a strange cabin while the owner goes around on shore excursions. She must have been terrified.

 

HAL might be better off just banning the WOMAN from future cruises based on HER behavior, and say nothing about the dog.

[summer slope]

It sounds like the passenger is the real problem, not the dog...although pooping outside the designated area and barking would be annoying...but not the dog's fault. Since the poor dog is clearly NOT a service dog, she must have been bewildered by her surroundings and not sure what to do. How cruel to leave her stuck in a strange cabin while the owner goes around on shore excursions. She must have been terrified.

 

HAL might be better off just banning the WOMAN from future cruises based on HER behavior, and say nothing about the dog.

 

I totally agree!

[bcummin]

Onboard before Hong Kong, we called her the “dog lady.” She became the "dog woman."

My heart goes out to the sweet, meek little dog, clearly a pet. I saw a timid dog showing no ability to tell that woman anything.

Notice that the first detailed Lido description was eating AT the table, not off the table.

 

I suspect that a doggie whose house manners have deteriorated through the long Arkdam voyage is a very unhappy camper. Maybe resorting to pooping to speak up. Poor thing.

 

Surely HAL has learned from this situation. We may never hear the rest of the story.

 

Barbara

 

P.S. Ocean Dancer, our son also has affectionate chickens :)

[cbr663]

<snip> When asked about the dog they said they had thought about what to say if asked and they decided not to say anything. Next question, they said.

 

I also think that that was the appropriate response. It would appear from the postings that this is an issue involving the personal conduct of one passenger while on board. When the conduct of one passenger infringes upon the enjoyment of another passenger, by all means bring it to HAL's attention. We all should inform HAL of the particular situation. However, once informed, there is no obligation whatsoever for HAL to inform us of the outcome of the situation.

 

Even though it would appear that this one passenger's conduct is offensive to many passengers, a professional approach would ensure that all discussions remain between HAL and the passenger only. Other passengers would not be privy to the steps or actions that HAL would take to try and correct the conduct. This is ultimately a personal matter between HAL and the passenger.

 

In reading through the thread, I find myself quite taken aback to read that other passengers chose to mock the passenger by putting a stuffed animal on a leash and others chose to make the incident the joke of the day. These actions may be seen as creating a hostile environment on board and would certainly, imo, warrant HAL taking action to stop this potentially offensive behaviour. This may be why HAL chose to post a mention in the daily one day? (of course, just my speculating).

[dot73]

We know that there is an international "no fly" list. Is there such a thing as a "no cruise" list that all cruiselines have access to? In spite of the fact that this passenger is a nasty passenger, she would probably sue the cruiseline if they didn't allow her to buy a cruise. I once worked with a blind man who had a guide dog. The dog's behaviour was impeccable and I don't think he ever had an "accident" in the office. This man occasionally took cruises but never took the dog with him (as he always went with a human companion) as he didn't think a cruise would be fair to the dog and other passengers who may be allergic or scared of dogs. Of course, he had common sense, which sadly, this woman totally lacks.

[Tarpeian Rock]

I also think that that was the appropriate response. It would appear from the postings that this is an issue involving the personal conduct of one passenger while on board. When the conduct of one passenger infringes upon the enjoyment of another passenger, by all means bring it to HAL's attention. We all should inform HAL of the particular situation. However, once informed, there is no obligation whatsoever for HAL to inform us of the outcome of the situation.

 

Even though it would appear that this one passenger's conduct is offensive to many passengers, a professional approach would ensure that all discussions remain between HAL and the passenger only. Other passengers would not be privy to the steps or actions that HAL would take to try and correct the conduct. This is ultimately a personal matter between HAL and the passenger.

 

In reading through the thread, I find myself quite taken aback to read that other passengers chose to mock the passenger by putting a stuffed animal on a leash and others chose to make the incident the joke of the day. These actions may be seen as creating a hostile environment on board and would certainly, imo, warrant HAL taking action to stop this potentially offensive behaviour. This may be why HAL chose to post a mention in the daily one day? (of course, just my speculating).

 

 

 

Since pax are not HAL employees, I'm not sure the idea of "hostile environment" applies here. There is also the small matter of freedom of speech. It would seem strange to hold the position that HAL is unable to stop or sanction someone with a live dog that defecates in public areas, but should step in and sanction and restrain someone with a pretend dog that presents no health hazard at all, but might hurt someone's "feelings" (although in the present case that woman's "feelings" might be beyond reach). Despite what the media try to tell us, there is no right not to be "offended."

[cbr663]

Since pax are not HAL employees, I'm not sure the idea of "hostile environment" applies here. There is also the small matter of freedom of speech. It would seem strange to hold the position that HAL is unable to stop or sanction someone with a live dog that defecates in public areas, but should step in and sanction and restrain someone with a pretend dog that presents no health hazard at all, but might hurt someone's "feelings" (although in the present case that woman's "feelings" might be beyond reach). Despite what the media try to tell us, there is no right not to be "offended."

 

I did not state nor do I hold the position that HAL is unable to stop offensive conduct by any passenger. HAL has a responsibility to stop any obnoxious behaviour by all passengers. This would include passengers allowing an animal to misbehave and also not allowing other passengers to single out any passenger for ridicule. A group of passengers should never expect to be able to publicly question officers and hope to receive personal details of what actions HAL took in regards to another passenger. These are personal and private matters that should remain private.

[SoCal Cruiser78]

...HAL might be better off just banning the WOMAN from future cruises based on HER behavior, and say nothing about the dog.

 

My guess is that is how this will all shake out. That takes the dog and the ADA out of the equation. I imagine the crew are just counting the days until she disembarks in San Diego.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ryndam2002
spelling

[Windsailer]

I find the support of HAL’s actions (actually inaction) interesting. I don’t necessarily want to know what HAL has done to deal with this problem, all I expect is that HAL would deal with it. The evidence would be that the other passengers on the ship don’t see a continuation of the dog’s conduct.

 

Based on what actual passengers have said:

 

…the dog has pooped in many rooms on the ship including the Queens Lounge and the restaurant;

 

…the dog has barked during performances, lunged at other passengers and woke neighbors with its barking;

 

…the dog was in the Lido in the owners lap and eating at the table; and

 

…the dog defecated on the carpet by the aft Lido elevators she (the owner walked away and didn't even bother to tell the staff what had happened)

 

As to the owner, she’s been able to go on long excursions without the “service” dog, including an overnight.

 

My conclusion from this CC discussion is that the dog is not a legitimate service dog and HAL fell short when it allowed it on board. The staff on the Amsterdam fell short when they did not confine the owner and dog to her cabin after the first 10 complaints (assuming they investigated and documented the complaints), allowing her disembark at the next port of call if she desired.

 

Hopefully this has been a learning experience for HAL. They need to screen service animals more carefully and hold the owner and service animal to a clear code of conduct while on the ship.

 

As to this passenger and her pet, she should be barred from cruising on HAL again, based on her conduct.

[Hlitner]

We would surmise that HAL will do absolutely nothing, sweep the entire incident off the deck and into the sea, and not make any attempt to ban this woman from further cruises. The reality is that our society has become overly cautious when it comes to the ADA and anyone claiming coverage under that law. There was a previous court case (it involved NCL) regarding the ADA via a vis foreign flagged cruise ships. The case actually made it all the way to the US Supreme Court who, with an exception for SOLAS requirements, essentially upheld a lower court ruling that the ADA does apply. And the issue of service dogs and the ADA is murky enough that no business wants to "rock the boat."

 

Hank

[doublebzz]

We would surmise that HAL will do absolutely nothing, sweep the entire incident off the deck and into the sea, and not make any attempt to ban this woman from further cruises. The reality is that our society has become overly cautious when it comes to the ADA and anyone claiming coverage under that law. There was a previous court case (it involved NCL) regarding the ADA via a vis foreign flagged cruise ships. The case actually made it all the way to the US Supreme Court who, with an exception for SOLAS requirements, essentially upheld a lower court ruling that the ADA does apply. And the issue of service dogs and the ADA is murky enough that no business wants to "rock the boat."

 

Hank

 

Hank - you are probably right, unfortunately.

[Cruzin Terri]

I find the support of HAL’s actions (actually inaction) interesting. I don’t necessarily want to know what HAL has done to deal with this problem, all I expect is that HAL would deal with it. The evidence would be that the other passengers on the ship don’t see a continuation of the dog’s conduct.

 

Based on what actual passengers have said:

 

…the dog has pooped in many rooms on the ship including the Queens Lounge and the restaurant;

 

…the dog has barked during performances, lunged at other passengers and woke neighbors with its barking;

 

…the dog was in the Lido in the owners lap and eating at the table; and

 

…the dog defecated on the carpet by the aft Lido elevators she (the owner walked away and didn't even bother to tell the staff what had happened)

 

As to the owner, she’s been able to go on long excursions without the “service” dog, including an overnight.

 

My conclusion from this CC discussion is that the dog is not a legitimate service dog and HAL fell short when it allowed it on board. The staff on the Amsterdam fell short when they did not confine the owner and dog to her cabin after the first 10 complaints (assuming they investigated and documented the complaints), allowing her disembark at the next port of call if she desired.

 

Hopefully this has been a learning experience for HAL. They need to screen service animals more carefully and hold the owner and service animal to a clear code of conduct while on the ship.

 

As to this passenger and her pet, she should be barred from cruising on HAL again, based on her conduct.

 

I did not say that I supported HAL's action's or inaction. I only said that I thought that the Captain and Hotel Manager were appropriate in not discussing the issue at the Q & A sessions.

 

I do not think that the actions of the Dog owner are appropriate or are to be condoned by anyone. However, I also do not think it is appropriate for HAL to comment on the behavior of any passenger to another passenger or a group of passengers.

 

This, in itself, opens HAL to a lawsuit. I would almost bet money that the ship's officers have been in touch with Seattle and have been advised on how to handle the situation.

It would also not surprise me if the passenger in question gets a letter informing her that she is no longer welcome on any HAL ship. I do remember that it happened on another line when a certain passenger posted compensation she received from the cruise line here on CC.

Terri

[geocruiser]

I just hope that in the end it will work out. HAL is a large company and must have a team of lawyers working on this. I just hope that it doesn't go any more public than here on CC. HAL does have the know how on how to fix this.

[RuthC]

HAL does have the know how on how to fix this.

Ah, but do they have the backbone? That is the question.