Remember the Italian Line Raphaello and Michaelangelo?

[rkacruiser]

22 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

Things started going off the rails in the mid nineties.  

 

Is that the time when ownership/management of NCL started to change?  

[CGTNORMANDIE]

4 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Is that the time when ownership/management of NCL started to change?  

Yes it was…see Knute Kloster.  

[rkacruiser]

19 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

Yes it was…see Knute Kloster.  

 

Reading about him in The Maritime Executive was very interesting.   No idea that he was a MIT alumnus.   I recalled his association with Ted Arison and have wondered for a long time about what caused their "falling out".  

 

His early interest in ecotourism and the humanist side of the travel enterprise was new to me as well.  

 

I was reminded that NCL was the first to develop a private island:  Coco Cay.  That was one of the attractions that caused me to book my Sunward II cruise during a Florida Winter visit.  Don't recall much about that visit except my traveling companion and I returned to the ship with numerous sand flea bites.  

 

RCI's roots came from Norwegians just as NCL's.  That has fascinated me for years.  Why?  The country's seafaring history/traditions?  

[CGTNORMANDIE]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Reading about him in The Maritime Executive was very interesting.   No idea that he was a MIT alumnus.   I recalled his association with Ted Arison and have wondered for a long time about what caused their "falling out".  

 

His early interest in ecotourism and the humanist side of the travel enterprise was new to me as well.  

 

I was reminded that NCL was the first to develop a private island:  Coco Cay.  That was one of the attractions that caused me to book my Sunward II cruise during a Florida Winter visit.  Don't recall much about that visit except my traveling companion and I returned to the ship with numerous sand flea bites.  

 

RCI's roots came from Norwegians just as NCL's.  That has fascinated me for years.  Why?  The country's seafaring history/traditions?  

Knut was a visionary.  His gamble to take the SS France and turn it into a giant (for its time) cruise ship was brilliant.  He changed cruising into what we have today.  His idea to build two gigantic landing craft and mount them on the foredeck was truly beyond imagination.  As was the pool with the windows looking into the disco.  The Norway was one of the most comfortable and interesting cruise ships I was ever on.  

[rkacruiser]

21 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

His idea to build two gigantic landing craft and mount them on the foredeck was truly beyond imagination

 

Wasn't that due to necessity for guests to visit some of the Caribbean ports during those years?  I remember seeing the Norway anchored outside Charlotte Amalie's harbor with the two large tenders ferrying guests from/to the ship.  

 

21 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

As was the pool with the windows looking into the disco. 

 

If I recall correctly, this pool was the France's Tourist Class pool.  Refresh my memory, please.  There was something unique about that pool as I recall.  Those windows weren't it when the France was in service?  

[CGTNORMANDIE]

59 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Wasn't that due to necessity for guests to visit some of the Caribbean ports during those years?  I remember seeing the Norway anchored outside Charlotte Amalie's harbor with the two large tenders ferrying guests from/to the ship.  

 

 

If I recall correctly, this pool was the France's Tourist Class pool.  Refresh my memory, please.  There was something unique about that pool as I recall.  Those windows weren't it when the France was in service?  

The landing craft were built to expedite the tender service from ship to shore.  If my memory serves me right I believe each craft could hold close to 200 people.  The best part was when they landed at the private island and the forward ramp would come down like a D Day landing craft and 100 people would step off.  
 

I swam in the Tourist Class pool once upon a time.  There was a story about it.  They removed the pool and turned the area into a disco.   The new pool was much bigger and there were windows that looked into the disco.  You could sit at the bar wand watch the people swim in the pool.  There was another story about a fiberglass pool that got used in the disco…can’t remember…must be a senior moment…lol.

[rkacruiser]

2 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

The landing craft were built to expedite the tender service from ship to shore.  If my memory serves me right I believe each craft could hold close to 200 people.  The best part was when they landed at the private island and the forward ramp would come down like a D Day landing craft and 100 people would step off.  

 

Thanks for your reply.  Was the need to have an efficient method of transferring guests to the private island the reason for the development of these tenders?  Or, as what I saw in St. Thomas, was the Norway so large and would occupy so much of the dock space at that time that the Port Authorities required her to anchor in order to allow smaller vessels to dock at their port?  

[Rotterdam]

14 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Thanks for your reply.  Was the need to have an efficient method of transferring guests to the private island the reason for the development of these tenders?  Or, as what I saw in St. Thomas, was the Norway so large and would occupy so much of the dock space at that time that the Port Authorities required her to anchor in order to allow smaller vessels to dock at their port?  

If I may add something here...

The FRANCE & QE2 were built as true ocean liners w first & "second class"..w the ability to do one class cruises.

The ships were built w extra strong hulls to withstand the North Atlantic and also deeper drafts. 

Cruise ships 🚢 later on were built w shallower drafts enabling them into ports such as the Carib, Mediterranean etc.

Since the draft of the FRANCE was so deep,  she & QE2 were not able to dock in ports w shallow harbors like St. Thomas.

The tenders on the NORWAY  not only facilitated the off loading of passengers & crew but also added years to her life.

Anyone that sailed in FRANCE & QE2 know the difference between those great oceanliners & the newer cruise ships .

I loved sailing in the FRANCE, THE NORWAY & QE2.

Knut Kluster took a big risk & certainly was much more a visionary,  creative, imaginative & quality driven business man. Fortunately for some of us, we were able to experience his dream.

 

 

 

[rkacruiser]

5 hours ago, Rotterdam said:

Since the draft of the FRANCE was so deep,  she & QE2 were not able to dock in ports w shallow harbors like St. Thomas.

The tenders on the NORWAY

 

I did not realize that the Norway was unable to dock at St. Thomas.  Thinking about our conversation, I am remembering that her tenders were named "Little Norway One" and "Little Norway Two".  Is my memory correct?  Or, is this a false thought?  (Wouldn't be the first if it was!)  

 

QE2 surely was built to be an ocean liner and when I sailed on her she handled the Atlantic ("normal" and not stormy)  well.  My memories of that voyage rank at the bottom of my cruising experiences because of the labor issues the ship was having.  I do remember--and appreciated at the time--brief experiences of the Cunard White Star service that I expected to have.  

[CGTNORMANDIE]

8 hours ago, Rotterdam said:

If I may add something here...

The FRANCE & QE2 were built as true ocean liners w first & "second class"..w the ability to do one class cruises.

The ships were built w extra strong hulls to withstand the North Atlantic and also deeper drafts. 

Cruise ships 🚢 later on were built w shallower drafts enabling them into ports such as the Carib, Mediterranean etc.

Since the draft of the FRANCE was so deep,  she & QE2 were not able to dock in ports w shallow harbors like St. Thomas.

The tenders on the NORWAY  not only facilitated the off loading of passengers & crew but also added years to her life.

Anyone that sailed in FRANCE & QE2 know the difference between those great oceanliners & the newer cruise ships .

I loved sailing in the FRANCE, THE NORWAY & QE2.

Knut Kluster took a big risk & certainly was much more a visionary,  creative, imaginative & quality driven business man. Fortunately for some of us, we were able to experience his dream.

 

 

 

Well said!  Indeed…some of us were very fortunate to have experienced the France, QE2 and Norway.

[norboy76]

On 6/24/2021 at 7:44 PM, CGTNORMANDIE said:

Well said!  Indeed…some of us were very fortunate to have experienced the France, QE2 and Norway.

I have nice items and an ad for the SS France in my personal collection, including a 2 page inaugural ad. including an unique keychain which is also a teensy knife, the cobalt blue ashtray, menus, playing cards, postcards. I also have nice items for her as the Norway including a SS Norway towel. 

[rkacruiser]

When I visited the S. S. France, items were being sold by a Steward in the First Class library.  I bought a postcard.  Seeing your playing cards with the France on them rather look familiar.  I don't remember what else was being sold.  

[marco]

I'm pretty sure it was today's date, 1968 that we sailed to Italy on the "Raffaello".  Doesn't seem like it's over 50 years ago, now.

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, marco said:

I'm pretty sure it was today's date, 1968 that we sailed to Italy on the "Raffaello".  Doesn't seem like it's over 50 years ago, now.

 

I am glad to know that I am not alone in remembering significant cruise dates.  I always "celebrate" the sailing dates for my 1st cruise, July 27, 1970 on Rotterdam V as well as my 2nd Cruise, July 31, 1971 on Rotterdam V.  

 

I have friends who have asked:  how/why do you remember such things?  My response has always been that somethings are more important than others to remember.  I had looked forward to that first cruise for so long and that it was to celebrate my 5 years of work to earn my Master's degree.  

[CGTNORMANDIE]

7 hours ago, marco said:

I'm pretty sure it was today's date, 1968 that we sailed to Italy on the "Raffaello".  Doesn't seem like it's over 50 years ago, now.

It was July 14, 1965 that I set sail from NY onboard the original Queen Elizabeth for my first sailing on n ocean liner.  Ironically it was on a Wednesday.  

[CGTNORMANDIE]

Thanks for the display NB.  Funny story…somewhere in my attic there is a stack of those blue ash trays.  The bar man wanted to get rid of them so I obliged…lol.  I must have at least 5… lol.   

[marco]

9 hours ago, CGTNORMANDIE said:

Thanks for the display NB.  Funny story…somewhere in my attic there is a stack of those blue ash trays.  The bar man wanted to get rid of them so I obliged…lol.  I must have at least 5… lol.   

You could sell them on E-bay for some ridiculous price!  I think if I sold all of the menus I've accumulated over the years, I probably could buy a Mercedes with the $$$$$ (LOL)

[norboy76]

I got a couple of nice Italian Line postcards, 1 for the SS Raffaello and 1 for the SS Leonardo Da Vinci, but one reason I really like these postcards is, besides the ship being on them, so is a portrait of the famous Artist each ship is named after which I thought was a nice touch. The Raffaello one is unique because the ship was not built yet, this was an artists impression of what she  might look like and when you see the postcard, she looks nothing like how she would actually turn out. 

[rkacruiser]

13 hours ago, marco said:

You could sell them on E-bay for some ridiculous price!  I think if I sold all of the menus I've accumulated over the years, I probably could buy a Mercedes with the $$$$$ (LOL)

 

I remember the artifacts that I once had collected going back to the late 1950's through 1982.  I have seen some of these same items for sale on E-Bay as well as on other sites.  That makes me more appreciative than ever of what I now have collected and have informed my Executor that if he throws all of this "stuff" into the dumpster, when the time comes for such a decision, he will be throwing money into that dumpster.  If he does, it will my Estate's loss which will impact him as well as my Alma Mater.  

[norboy76]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I remember the artifacts that I once had collected going back to the late 1950's through 1982.  I have seen some of these same items for sale on E-Bay as well as on other sites.  That makes me more appreciative than ever of what I now have collected and have informed my Executor that if he throws all of this "stuff" into the dumpster, when the time comes for such a decision, he will be throwing money into that dumpster.  If he does, it will my Estate's loss which will impact him as well as my Alma Mater.  

I have a nice extensive collection of ocean liner and cruise ship paraphanalia, I'm sure over 1000 items or more. My collection spans from the 1800's to 2019 (which was when I took my last cruise). I have a lot of postcards and some items at least 100 - almost 140 yrs old.

[shipgeeks]

I just learned of a new book that some of you might be interested in:  Italian Liners of the 1960's:The Costanzi Quartet, by Ian Sebire.  It is currently only available in the UK, but should be in the US in November.

If it is as well done as his last book, Masters of the Italian Line:  Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo and Raffaello, it will be worth pursuing.

[rkacruiser]

26 minutes ago, shipgeeks said:

I just learned of a new book that some of you might be interested in:  Italian Liners of the 1960's:The Costanzi Quartet, by Ian Sebire.  It is currently only available in the UK, but should be in the US in November.

If it is as well done as his last book, Masters of the Italian Line:  Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo and Raffaello, it will be worth pursuing.

 

I googled the title and found several "hits" about the book.  It does sound interesting; I never have heard of the term "Costanzi Quartets".  The book is available for pre-order from Barnes and Noble.  Two copies are available currently from a seller on eBay who must be in the UK and offers free shipping.  The pre-order from B&N is for a November 15, 2021 availability date.  

 

Thanks, shipgeeks, for posting your information!  

[marco]

I was watching Youtube yesterday, about NCL acquiring the "France" and before they did, they approached the Italian Line considering purchasing  the Michelangelo or Raffaello. If they did, they would have put portholes on the passenger decks that had cabins that didn't have them.  It went on to say the reason those decks didn't have portholes is the Italian Line wanted the ships to have a sleeker look.  (wrong idea, I think)  Don't recall who it was but either the Italian Govt or the Italian line said "nope".  And once upon a time, Home Lines looked at them, as well.

[rkacruiser]

6 hours ago, marco said:

I was watching Youtube yesterday, about NCL acquiring the "France" and before they did, they approached the Italian Line considering purchasing  the Michelangelo or Raffaello. If they did, they would have put portholes on the passenger decks that had cabins that didn't have them.  It went on to say the reason those decks didn't have portholes is the Italian Line wanted the ships to have a sleeker look.  (wrong idea, I think)  Don't recall who it was but either the Italian Govt or the Italian line said "nope".  And once upon a time, Home Lines looked at them, as well.

 

That's an interesting bit of maritime history of which I have never heard.  NCL acquired France in 1979, so the two Italian ships must have been considered before 1979.  I believe the date the Michelangelo and Raffaello ended service was 1975.  So, why would either the Italian Line or the Italian Government say "no" to NCL?  According to Wikipedia, "the ships had several design flaws that made their use as cruise ships as problematic".  (I wonder what these "flaws" might have been other than not being fuel efficient.)  Probably a reason that Home Lines was not interested.  

 

Thanks, Marco, for your post.  Did some interesting research this afternoon.  

[trivia addict]

I love to cruise, my husband does not. We have been on many wonderful cruises on many different lines, and to many continents the past 40 years.
However, to listen to him talk, his favorite ship was the Raffello, which he cruised on with his parents to the Caribbean  in the late 60s.

Go figure! I may have to find that book! 😊