60th Anniversary of the "Andrea Doria' sinking

[chengkp75]

I frequently ask the cadets to do a "twice the angle on the bow" line of position, and they look at me like I'm speaking Greek.  The Captain who recently transferred onboard caused some great consternation when he informed the 2nd/3rd Mates that he expected at least one of them to shoot a star fix once a month!  They weren't even sure where the sextant was.

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

I frequently ask the cadets to do a "twice the angle on the bow" line of position, and they look at me like I'm speaking Greek.  The Captain who recently transferred onboard caused some great consternation when he informed the 2nd/3rd Mates that he expected at least one of them to shoot a star fix once a month!  They weren't even sure where the sextant was.

 

On our regular runs, we didn't fix the ship's position on the chart, as visual observations of transits, clearing lines, etc gave us a secondary means of confirming the GPS was accurate. However, when repositioning or heading to drydock, I wanted the position fixed on the chart. Most of the officers with no deep sea background couldn't use a pelorous to take visual bearings. Fortunately, I hand selected my officers for these voyages, so they were willing to learn. Taught them how to use the pelorous and how beam bearings change more than bow/stern bearings, so the beam bearing should be taken on the mark, to get a more accurate speed. Also had to explain the "Cocked hat"

 

Asking them to double the angle on the bow, running fixes or dipping ranges of a lighthouse - unfortunately, I just didn't have sufficient time to get into that level of detail.

 

One of the best was departing on a smaller 80 car double ended ferry in about a 60 kt wind. I remained stern into the dock and powered the bow around into the wind, then blasted out the dock. Shortly after departure, the Mate (sorry doesn't deserve Chief or 1st Officer) came up to the Bridge advising the passenger control rope was blown over the side and cut between the ship and dock as we turned in the dock.

 

Handling the ship in reasonable winds, I couldn't figure why he had to bring this very minor issue up to the Bridge. Suggested he have one of the Seamen splice a new line, as it only required a couple of eye splices in about 3/8th rope. He responded that neither of the Seamen could splice, so I responded, perfect, you can teach them. Sadly a very sheepish Mate advised that he couldn't splice either.

 

The dinner break that evening was taken up with me teaching the Mate and 2 seamen how to complete an eye splice in thin rope.

 

If I went back deep sea, I would also be one of the old "Crusty" Masters expecting deck officers to perform their trade doing regular sun sights, star sights and daily compass errors by Azimuth. Would also like to see their faces if asked to complete a GM calculation.

[rkacruiser]

I am learning some nautical terminology that I have never heard before.  Very interesting!

[chengkp75]

4 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

I am learning some nautical terminology that I have never heard before.  Very interesting!

There are some Mates out there that haven't heard these terms before, either.  "But Captain, why take sun lines, we have a 2nd GPS in case the primary fails".  I'm an old engineer, and I can probably navigate better than some of these guys.  Andy will know what I'm talking about, but we had to use books of tables (sines and cosines, tangents, etc, HO 229) to "reduce" a star sight to a line of position, now even if they know how to do a star sight, the calculator does it for them.  An interesting note about the sight reduction tables like "229" is that these were done as hand calculations by unemployed mathematicians as part of the recovery from the Great Depression.

[rkacruiser]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

There are some Mates out there that haven't heard these terms before, either.  "But Captain, why take sun lines, we have a 2nd GPS in case the primary fails"

 

Your profession was different than mine.  But, the similarities I am reading in working with the newbies into our professions is striking.  

 

What one has learned in theory can become quite different when that theory needs to be put into practice.  

[Heidi13]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

There are some Mates out there that haven't heard these terms before, either.  "But Captain, why take sun lines, we have a 2nd GPS in case the primary fails".  I'm an old engineer, and I can probably navigate better than some of these guys.  Andy will know what I'm talking about, but we had to use books of tables (sines and cosines, tangents, etc, HO 229) to "reduce" a star sight to a line of position, now even if they know how to do a star sight, the calculator does it for them.  An interesting note about the sight reduction tables like "229" is that these were done as hand calculations by unemployed mathematicians as part of the recovery from the Great Depression.

 

Ah!, the real tools of the trade - sextant, Nories Tables, Nautical Almanac, slide rule, etc. When I did my Masters way back in 1983, the Navigational Calculators were just becoming popular. I recall in the Astro Class, way too many of them discussing which formula to use to calculate the position line and intercept.

 

Having done 4 or 5 sun sights a day on the 8-12 watch, or 2 sets of up to 6 stars on the 4-8 watch, I could get the answer quicker using Nories Tables and my worksheet than they could using a calculator. In the morning, we took sights at 08:30, 09:00, 09:30, 10:00 and 10:30, so regardless of the time of Meridian Altitude, we knew our Noon position before 11:00 and had calculated the days run, average speed, distance to go, etc in lots of time for the Noon announcement.

 

Back as a cadet on Oriana, which had one of the first Sat Navs, we were not permitted to even look at the print outs. Even on 12-4 watch we had to get up to do a morning sight, then go back to bed, before being up again for Meridian Altitude.

 

As a cadet on Uganda, we were required to take an Azimuth and compare the compasses to determine the gyro error and deviation for each course. When cruising around an island, or along the coast, this could be up to 20+ different courses in a 4 hr ship. Didn't have sufficient time for the calculations, so we recorded the info and completed the calculations and entries in the compass record book after we got off shift.

 

I dealt with the same issues with our son, when he joined Princess. I explained to him the correct attire for joining a ship, with the response of, "Dad, things have changed since Noah's Ark". Sadly on the Princess ships they were more lax, but then he joined one of the P&O ships, as 3rd Officer. He was on the Bridge for handover wearing jeans & t-shirt, when Staffy kicked him out to change. Changed into a white shirt and when Staffy returned he was frog marched into the Master's Office. I knew the Master, having sailed together on Oriana & Sun Princess. The Master asked him if his dad instructed him in the correct attire for joining a ship, to which he sheepishly responded in the affirmative.

 

Also mentioned to him to focus on the basics, as one day he will end up with a total failure - oh dad, we have back ups for the back ups. That couldn't happen these days. Well, he did experience it on a P&O Australia relic, entering port and complete blackout, with emergency genny not kicking in. All they had was batteries.

 

Same in the Engine Room. These days many of the younger generation can only function in the control room. The good old days of the professional 3rd Engineer, who walked around the engine room with a torch, listening and touching. He could tell where the problems were.

 

I haven't done any sights, etc in 40 yrs, but it was so ingrained, I have no doubt I could get them completed more accurately than most of day's officers. Same with a wire splice, haven't done one in years, but still remember the sequence.

[Heidi13]

6 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Your profession was different than mine.  But, the similarities I am reading in working with the newbies into our professions is striking.  

 

What one has learned in theory can become quite different when that theory needs to be put into practice.  

 

So true.

 

In addition to learning the theory, in the marine industry, we also gain invaluable experience in watching others deal with critical situations.

 

I recall one situation that I will never forget. I was Cadet on the Bridge of a cargo ship entering Dubai anchorage in 1976, when there were about 200 ships at anchor. The Master had the con and navigated us to the area where numerous other P&O ships were anchored.

 

We were aiming for another P&O ship at about 3 to 5 knots and on approaching the anchor position, the Master requested 1/2 Astern on the engine. As Cadet, I was the Telegraph Walla, so placed the telegraph to 1/2 astern then watched the Engine RPM gauge. It kicked astern, but didn't take. I advised the Master the engine not going astern. My eyes were getting bigger as the other ship approached. The Master, cool as cucumber requested stop engine. I moved the telegraph accordingly. He then requested 1/2 astern again. Same thing happened. Master, still cool and calm, requested stop engine and requested the Chief Officer to lower and dredge the stbd anchor.

 

This caused us to alter to Stbd, away from the other ship and slow down. Once the Engineers had the engine fixed, we anchored properly, then the Master walked me through his actions, explaining how dredging the anchor worked.

 

I used the same procedure about 4 times, as a Master and when training new Captains made them do a controlled docking using the anchor, simulating 1 engine being out of service.

 

This is where more seatime and slower promotion helped gain valuable experience before making the jump to Master.

[PromenadeDeckWriter]

18 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

I am learning some nautical terminology that I have never heard before.  Very interesting

So am I. Always eager to learn something new. 

 

On a bridge tour of a ship, I asked the officer leading the discussion if they ever used paper maps or sextants should a computer crash occur. I was surprised to see that yes, they have used the sextant "on one occasion" and the paper maps "never, but they're there". I would have thought it would have been more routine to know the different options should one fail for whatever reason. 

 

(And they were surprised that little 20 years old something female, disabled (Deaf), me even knew what a sextant was... I have my Playmobil ship to thank for, for it came with a working sextant with its pirate ship set back in the 1990s). 

[chengkp75]

57 minutes ago, PromenadeDeckWriter said:

On a bridge tour of a ship, I asked the officer leading the discussion if they ever used paper maps or sextants should a computer crash occur. I was surprised to see that yes, they have used the sextant "on one occasion" and the paper maps "never, but they're there"

For quite some time now, paper charts have become extraneous, with the exception of US flag vessels, where the USCG always required paper charts as the primary system.  However, in 2014 NOAA decided to stop printing traditional charts, and the USCG allowed coastwise US ships to use electronic charts as primary, with paper as backup.  Now, as of last year, NOAA will no longer provide any paper chart products, though third party vendors can produce them from the ENC (electronic chart) data NOAA will provide.  Ships will have two, separate, ECDIS (electronic chart display and information system), which shows an electronic chart, and combines a chart with inputs from radar, AIS, GPS, and is updated via satellite as NOAA updates their charts.

[rkacruiser]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

  Now, as of last year, NOAA will no longer provide any paper chart products, though third party vendors can produce them from the ENC (electronic chart) data NOAA will provide

 

I recall hearing that during the last Behind the Scenes Tour that I took.  

 

I suppose doing away with paper charts is a time saver for the Navigation Officer (a Second Officer, if I remember correctly).  Several years ago on a Bridge Tour, I learned that one of this Officer's jobs was to daily update/notate the charts with the navigation information that the ship daily received.  I remember seeing an Officer at his desk on the Bridge working on such charts.  

[chengkp75]

17 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I recall hearing that during the last Behind the Scenes Tour that I took.  

 

I suppose doing away with paper charts is a time saver for the Navigation Officer (a Second Officer, if I remember correctly).  Several years ago on a Bridge Tour, I learned that one of this Officer's jobs was to daily update/notate the charts with the navigation information that the ship daily received.  I remember seeing an Officer at his desk on the Bridge working on such charts.  

That was the 2nd Mate's overtime work, so he will just be assigned to other duties.  But, even the electronic charts need to have the course lines plotted, parallel indexes, way points, etc.

[Heidi13]

8 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I recall hearing that during the last Behind the Scenes Tour that I took.  

 

I suppose doing away with paper charts is a time saver for the Navigation Officer (a Second Officer, if I remember correctly).  Several years ago on a Bridge Tour, I learned that one of this Officer's jobs was to daily update/notate the charts with the navigation information that the ship daily received.  I remember seeing an Officer at his desk on the Bridge working on such charts.  

 

In addition to the charts all other Bridge publications must also be corrected - Lists of Lights, Radio Aids & Sailing Directions. In addition to corrections we also received T&P notices (Temporary & Preliminary). Canada issued corrections monthly, as "Notices to Mariners", which we downloaded from the website.

• T&P were written on the chart in pencil,
• Chart corrections were plotted, then added to the chart, recorded in the bottom corner and added to the chart correction register. When adding a correction, we had to check the previous correction was recorded, if not we had to back track and complete any missed corrections
• Publications were updated accordingly.

On my ships on the coast we only carried about 30 to 40 charts, as we primarily used ECDIS, so the corrections weren't too onerous for the 2nd Officer.

 

However, on SS Oriana we had almost 3,000 charts and we received corrections weekly. We had a chart correction service, which received the N to Mariners and created a chartlet with each correction. This save huge amounts of time, as we aligned the chartlet, punched a hole through the tracing to mark the location and applied the change. Although each correction was reasonably quick, it still took considerable time to locate each chart. We had hundreds of corrections each week.

 

ECDIS charts are also updated, but those corrections are received on a disk.

[Heidi13]

5 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

That was the 2nd Mate's overtime work, so he will just be assigned to other duties.  But, even the electronic charts need to have the course lines plotted, parallel indexes, way points, etc.

 

Affirmative, on overtime work, only in my day overtime wasn't paid.🙁

[rkacruiser]

There is such a huge amount of "what goes on behind the scenes" that 99% of cruise passengers have not a clue as to what it takes for a ship's company to give them "a cruise experience for a lifetime"!

[norboy76]

I found an interesting postcard from 1956, it's a postcard showing the Andrea Doria sinking. I'm unsure how many were made of this postcard or how many are still around in existence, but this is the postcard made of her sinking.

 

[shipgeeks]

On 8/4/2020 at 11:37 AM, PromenadeDeckWriter said:

So am I. Always eager to learn something new. 

 

On a bridge tour of a ship, I asked the officer leading the discussion if they ever used paper maps or sextants should a computer crash occur. I was surprised to see that yes, they have used the sextant "on one occasion" and the paper maps "never, but they're there". I would have thought it would have been more routine to know the different options should one fail for whatever reason. 

 

(And they were surprised that little 20 years old something female, disabled (Deaf), me even knew what a sextant was... I have my Playmobil ship to thank for, for it came with a working sextant with its pirate ship set back in the 1990s). 

That's a neat story!

Assuming your Playmobil ship was a gift, I'm wondering whether that was something you already had an interest in (hinting like crazy before your birthday), or if an unexpected gift of the ship started your interest.

 

 

[PromenadeDeckWriter]

31 minutes ago, shipgeeks said:

Playmobil ship

I think it started with piracy first (which I had an interest in since "Peter Pan" and somehow piracy transformed into ocean liners... (So even if one was to ask my 6-8 years old self, I would still be able to show off my tiny Playmobil sextant and know what it was used for, thanks to my illustrated book on piracy!)

[rkacruiser]

18 hours ago, norboy76 said:

I found an interesting postcard from 1956, it's a postcard showing the Andrea Doria sinking. I'm unsure how many were made of this postcard or how many are still around in existence, but this is the postcard made of her sinking.

 

Why would anyone make a postcard to show that tragedy?  Was there anything written in the message section of the postcard that might explain why someone would obtain/buy such a card?  

[Heidi13]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Why would anyone make a postcard to show that tragedy?  Was there anything written in the message section of the postcard that might explain why someone would obtain/buy such a card?  

 

As a mariner, that was my first thought.

 

Why produce a postcard to remember a Captain's worst day. I certainly have no wish to have photos of a great ship's last moments and certainly would not support it by purchasing one.

[norboy76]

3 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

As a mariner, that was my first thought.

 

Why produce a postcard to remember a Captain's worst day. I certainly have no wish to have photos of a great ship's last moments and certainly would not support it by purchasing one.

No personal messages written on the back, all I know it that the postcard was printed in 1956. The only things on the back are the comment about the postcard photo *S.S. Andrea Doria Lying off Nantuket after collision with M.S. Stockholm on July 25, 1956* and the name of the company that made the postcard *Published by Bromley and Company Inc., Boston 16, Mass* and there is a place on the back to write a message and affix a stamp. I will do further research as to why this postcard was printed. I have emailed a photo of the postcard to a couple of sites that deal with postcards, so I'm hoping to hear back then I can say why this was printed

Edited March 14, 2021 by norboy76
updated info

[norboy76]

5 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

Why would anyone make a postcard to show that tragedy?  Was there anything written in the message section of the postcard that might explain why someone would obtain/buy such a card?  

I'm trying to do research, but not finding much information on this postcard, so going to keep searching to find out why it was printed

[norboy76]

16 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

As a mariner, that was my first thought.

 

Why produce a postcard to remember a Captain's worst day. I certainly have no wish to have photos of a great ship's last moments and certainly would not support it by purchasing one.

I haven't been able to find out anything about this postcard or why it had been made. It reminds me of the 1930's Morro Castle beached in Ashbury postcards that were sold back then as souvenirs in the city where that liner beached, as a lot went to the beach and pier to see the wreck, they had postcards and pennies which are very valuable now and a lot collect them, but unsure if the Andrea Doria postcard was made for the same reason or not. I have sent a photo to 3 ship sites and waiting to hear back hopefully.

[rkacruiser]

18 hours ago, norboy76 said:

the name of the company that made the postcard *Published by Bromley and Company Inc., Boston 16, Mass*

 

21 hours ago, Heidi13 said:

 

As a mariner, that was my first thought.

 

Why produce a postcard to remember a Captain's worst day. I certainly have no wish to have photos of a great ship's last moments and certainly would not support it by purchasing one.

 

Seems to me that it was done by some company (somebody) trying to make some $$ off a disaster.  

[Heidi13]

14 minutes ago, rkacruiser said:

 

 

Seems to me that it was done by some company (somebody) trying to make some $$ off a disaster.  

 

Totally sad.

[rkacruiser]

16 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

Totally sad.

 

When I become aware of such a situation, I remember reading Dante's Divine Comedy.  Those who try to profit from disasters ought to spend some time in Purgatorio if not in Inferno.