Still another formal night question

[RocketMan275]

Are there any matters more subjective than good food and the proper response to suggested attire provisions in the dress code that we could be second-guessing instead?

 

I sure do hope there isn't anyone who really is trying to equate the MDR with Long John Silver's and I sure do hope there isn't anyone who really is trying to equate not wearing the suggested attire that they would wear with not wearing the minimum attire that the cruise line explicitly requires.

 

The question has never been the proper response to the provisions of the dress code. The question is more what should be the proper dress code?

 

There is nothing so special about the MDR that would justify a dress code more restrictive than an Applebee's or a Fridays.

[navybankerteacher]

The question has never been the proper response to the provisions of the dress code. The question is more what should be the proper dress code?

 

There is nothing so special about the MDR that would justify a dress code more restrictive than an Applebee's or a Fridays.

 

 

There really is no more "dress code" - suggestions hardly constitute a "code", and the lack of any enforcement confirms the effective absence of a code. So, it is pretty pointless to continue discussing it.

 

Beyond that, however, on HAL, Cunard and Celebrity ships - and I suppose others as well - the level of service, the table settings - linens, etc. do suggest a more formal approach. Additionally, while I would not consider the MDR meals on those ships to be "gourmet", I have certainly found them, in quality as well as presentation, to be sufficiently superior to that offered by on shore mass market eateries, to warrant an approach different to what is appropriate at Applebee's, Friday's, etc.

[bUU]

The question has never been the proper response to the provisions of the dress code. The question is more what should be the proper dress code?

Your comment appears to be ignoring one of the cardinal rules of hospitality, that being the guests' obligation to their hosts.

 

 

 

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[RocketMan275]

Your comment appears to be ignoring one of the cardinal rules of hospitality, that being the guests' obligation to their hosts.

 

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I'm not advocating violating the rules.

I'm advocating changing the rules.

How is that a violation of the rules of hospitality?

 

If the host were giving a party and bearing the costs of the party, it would be rude to advocate changing his rules.

However, since the guests are bearing the costs they can advocate changing the rules without violating any rules of hospitality.

[bUU]

How is that a violation of the rules of hospitality?

Asserting that the host is not the authority to specify the rules of the house is advocating a violation of the guests obligation to the host. And no it doesn't matter whether you're paying for the privilege of being a guest. You're still the guest. The host is still the host.

 

With regard to changing the rules... just wait. They're going to change whether you want them to or not. Especially with commercial Enterprises they'll be very interested in hearing how you think they should change the rules over time. You're right that there's no problem with providing them that input.

 

 

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[RocketMan275]

Beyond that, however, on HAL, Cunard and Celebrity ships - and I suppose others as well - the level of service, the table settings - linens, etc. do suggest a more formal approach. Additionally, while I would not consider the MDR meals on those ships to be "gourmet", I have certainly found them, in quality as well as presentation, to be sufficiently superior to that offered by on shore mass market eateries, to warrant an approach different to what is appropriate at Applebee's, Friday's, etc.

 

I suspect we have a basic perspective on what constitutes a 'fine dining' experience. I do not believe the dining experience is improved by wearing dressy clothes. I'm sure you see things differently.

[RocketMan275]

Asserting that the host is not the authority to specify the rules of the house is advocating a violation of the guests obligation to the host. And no it doesn't matter whether you're paying for the privilege of being a guest. You're still the guest. The host is still the host.

 

Quit placing words in my mouth. I've never denied the host's right to set the rules. I have asserted that a paying guest does have the right to advocate that the host should change the rules. There is a difference.

 

With regard to changing the rules... just wait. They're going to change whether you want them to or not. Especially with commercial Enterprises they'll be very interested in hearing how you think they should change the rules over time. You're right that there's no problem with providing them that input.

 

I'm willing to wait. I'm confident that the cruise line will adopt different rules to appeal to a changing demographic that considers blue jeans to be quite appropriate.

[bUU]

Fine dining is highlighted by superior service beyond all else. Some of the best food I've ever eaten is food that I made myself. It is the service that distinguishes that home dining experience from a fine dining experience.

 

Among the fine dining experiences that I've had perhaps the best was that a restaurant where the servers were wearing what amounted to boating-wear. They had on white deck shoes and white socks, white shorts, and white rolled collar shirts. And they provided mind-blowingly excellent service. (Recalling it now, I was probably better dressed than they were but not by much.)

 

And yes the food was really incredible as well.

 

Without a doubt the absolute worst dining experiences that I've ever had where when I was dressed as good as I ever had been, at weddings and such where the attire clearly meant more than the service quality or the quality of the food. There really truly is no relationship between clothing and fine dining except what people choose to make for themselves.

 

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[navybankerteacher]

I suspect we have a basic perspective on what constitutes a 'fine dining' experience. I do not believe the dining experience is improved by wearing dressy clothes. I'm sure you see things differently.

 

 

Why do you introduce the concept of fine dining?

 

All we are talking about is general dining experience - and anyone who does not think quality of food, quality of service, and, yes, attitude of those sharing your table all contribute does not consider the whole experience. What one wears, whether in compliance with a code or just as part of how they want to interact with others at their table is an expression of attitude.

[RocketMan275]

Fine dining is highlighted by superior service beyond all else. Some of the best food I've ever eaten is food that I made myself. It is the service that distinguishes that home dining experience from a fine dining experience.

 

Among the fine dining experiences that I've had perhaps the best was that a restaurant where the servers were wearing what amounted to boating-wear. They had on white deck shoes and white socks, white shorts, and white rolled collar shirts. And they provided mind-blowingly excellent service. (Recalling it now, I was probably better dressed than they were but not by much.)

 

And yes the food was really incredible as well.

 

Without a doubt the absolute worst dining experiences that I've ever had where when I was dressed as good as I ever had been, at weddings and such where the attire clearly mentmore than the service quality or the quality of the food. They're really truly is no relationship between clothing and fine dining accept what people choose to make for themselves.

 

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It amazes me that some passengers conflate fine dining with the clothes their fellow passengers wear.

If dressing up makes a person feel good, then, by all means, they should dress up.

However, no one should make another person dress up to improve their own experiences.

[bUU]

What one wears, whether in compliance with a code or just as part of how they want to interact with others at their table is an expression of attitude.

What one wears in compliance with a dress code is an expression of attitude. What one wears beyond compliance with a dress code is not always an expression of attitude, but when it is an expression of attitude, it is most often an expression of an attitude of pretentiousness.

 

 

 

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[bUU]

Quit placing words in my mouth.

I'm not. I am stating my perspective in my words. Those words that contradict your perspective are in disagreement with you. Those words that are consistent with your perspective are in agreement with you. Those words which have nothing to do with your perspective are irrelevant to you.

 

I've never denied the host's right to set the rules. I have asserted that a paying guest does have the right to advocate that the host should change the rules.

And what part of that is inconsistent with the last part of the post of mine to which you just replied? It sounds pretty darn close to what I wrote. The fact that we don't agree 100% - that there is a small nuance of a difference between what you believe and what I believe - shouldn't be of much concern.

 

I'm willing to wait. I'm confident that the cruise line will adopt different rules to appeal to a changing demographic that considers blue jeans to be quite appropriate.

Perhaps, but do keep an open mind to the possibility that (for example) Wrangler brand blue denim mom jeans may never reach the level of appreciation necessary for it to be included in the dress code for that special night aboard a cruise. There are blue jeans, especially designer blue jeans, I could see becoming well-regarded enough, but I think there will still be that line that will differentiate some blue jeans from others.

 

 

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[RocketMan275]

Why do you introduce the concept of fine dining?

 

I'm sure you've seen this before:

"Gala Nights evoke the grand traditions of cruising as guests dressto impress for special events on board, including a five-coursegourmet dinner in the Dining Room. For gentlemen, collaredshirt and slacks are required in all fine dining restaurants . Forladies, dressy attire is appropriate, dresses skirts and slacks are allacceptable."

 

 

Does that answer the question?

 

All we are talking about is general dining experience - and anyone who does not think quality of food, quality of service, and, yes, attitude of those sharing your table all contribute does not consider the whole experience. What one wears, whether in compliance with a code or just as part of how they want to interact with others at their table is an expression of attitude.

 

Would someone wearing blue jeans at your table adversely affect your attitude? Why? Why is your 'attitude' more important than their wishes to dress in the manner they desire? Doesn't it affect their 'attitude' when you tell them how they should dress to please you? The essence of my argument is that your desires are no more important than the wishes of others.

 

People will be much happier when they start controlling their own responses to what others wear instead of trying to control how their fellow passengers dress.

[Lizzie68]

I'm not. I am stating my perspective in my words. Those words that contradict your perspective are in disagreement with you. Those words that are consistent with your perspective are in agreement with you. Those words which have nothing to do with your perspective are irrelevant to you.

 

And what part of that is inconsistent with the last part of the post of mine to which you just replied? It sounds pretty darn close to what I wrote. The fact that we don't agree 100% - that there is a small nuance of a difference between what you believe and what I believe - shouldn't be of much concern.

 

 

Perhaps, but do keep an open mind to the possibility that (for example) Wrangler brand blue denim mom jeans may never reach the level of appreciation necessary for it to be included in the dress code for that special night aboard a cruise. There are blue jeans, especially designer blue jeans, I could see becoming well-regarded enough, but I think there will still be that line that will differentiate some blue jeans from others.

 

 

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Can I ask a simple question - and hopefully get a simple answer? What has been your experience on HAL gala nights since the change from the title "formal" in recent years? Just wondering, because you seem to always take a topic, and turn it into an argument, but seldom refer to your personal experience on HAL.

[bUU]

Just wondering, because you seem to always take a topic, and turn it into an argument

It sounds to me like you're trying to turn this into an argument. I'm not interested.

 

Let's stick to talking about formal nights and fine dining on cruise ships.

 

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[RocketMan275]

I'm not. I am stating my perspective in my words. Those words that contradict your perspective are in disagreement with you. Those words that are consistent with your perspective are in agreement with you. Those words which have nothing to do with your perspective are irrelevant to you.

 

And what part of that is inconsistent with the last part of the post of mine to which you just replied? It sounds pretty darn close to what I wrote. The fact that we don't agree 100% - that there is a small nuance of a difference between what you believe and what I believe - shouldn't be of much concern.

 

OK, Fine, as long as you recognize that I have never denied the rights of the host or the obligations of the guest. I have done neither. I still maintain that when a guest pays for the experience that guest does retain the right to complain about the food, the decor, or the dress code.

 

Perhaps, but do keep an open mind to the possibility that (for example) Wrangler brand blue denim mom jeans may never reach the level of appreciation necessary for it to be included in the dress code for that special night aboard a cruise. There are blue jeans, especially designer blue jeans, I could see becoming well-regarded enough, but I think there will still be that line that will differentiate some blue jeans from others.

 

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I can't wait to hear the arguments about the finer distinction between 'blue jeans' and 'nice blue jeans'.

 

JMHO, but I believe the real problem with blue jeans is the perception by many that only workmen wear working clothes and blue jeans are working clothes. There are those who feel the need to differentiate themselves from workmen. It like many other aspects of fashion that are designed to show social status.