Lets talk about tipping

[myfuzzy]

Not sure we need yet another tipping thread. If you look on the individual cruise line boards you will find thousands of posts already. Perhaps you could contribute to those instead.

 

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Did a search using the word "tipping" already 490 threads with just that word and 495 threads including the word gratuities

[bUU]

Well a few things: First, customers don't pay more than they should, this way. That's something people who don't like the system say, but there's nothing substantial behind those words.

 

US customers do as food and drink prices are relatively similar across the western world...US folk only think Europe is expensive because they sit in the tourist hotspots. I buy a glass of wine and a bowl of Carbonara in a small Bistro in my home city...it costs £15 as the service was what I expected I leave a £1.50 tip as 10% is commonplace here so I have paid £16.50.. In the US in a city I pay £15 for the same meal (dollars though of course) and I leave an 18% tip of £2.70 so I pay £17.70. If you eat out a lot as a large group that would add up.

None of which shows what you claimed, that customers pay more than they should. Your argument is a no different than claiming that people who live in New York pay more than they should as compared to people who live in Des Moines. Just because prices are higher in one market versus another doesn't mean anything close to what you claim it means.

 

When their lines have been deployed in other regions or a cruise line has set up a new brand for outside the US cruising market they have often removed the grats and included it or made grats much smaller as they know they can't get away with it.

Again you seem to think you're making a point when that isn't the case. When foreign companies open up restaurants in the United States they follow American custom. Nothing notable about it.

 

 

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[Velvetwater]

None of which shows what you claimed, that customers pay more than they should. Your argument is a no different than claiming that people who live in New York pay more than they should as compared to people who live in Des Moines. Just because prices are higher in one market versus another doesn't mean anything close to what you claim it means.

 

Again you seem to think you're making a point when that isn't the case. When foreign companies open up restaurants in the United States they follow American custom. Nothing notable about it.

 

 

.

 

I'll summarise my two points you misread:

 

1) I paid more in the US scenario because of the tipping culture. I could have saved even more if I didn't tip in the UK which is also common with some therefore US Customers pay more than they should. The food price was not higher at all.

 

2) That was a point about lines such as Carnival and P&O adding tips to the cruise price when in Oz etc...nothing to do with US restaurants opening up..

[Velvetwater]

Sorry Velvetwater your comparison about eating out in US versus UK is not accurate in my experience. Traveled to UK for many years (born in UK and visit friends and family). I do not eat in touristy restaurants. Definitely have always spent more for meals in UK. I agree that my family has their favorite pubs, fish and chips, etc., but overall have found restaurants to be more expensive in UK. This is even true of American fast food and chain restaurants - much more expensive than US. I have also had an automatic gratuity, although more like 10-15%, added to my check.

 

I haven't found this at all and been to both the East/West coast of the US and many of my friends now live over your way. Sure, I have eaten some expensive meals over here but compared to the prices I have paid and seen there is hardly a difference. I eat many different cuisines too.

 

Many places in Europe are even cheaper with notable exceptions such as Scandinavia and Switzerland.Can't comment on fast food prices as I don't really eat fast food when on my travels.

 

Also when I said Tourist places I meant the likes of London,Paris, Milan and so on rather than specific dining venues.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Velvetwater

[sloopsailor]

The only impact removing automatic gratuities has is making things worse for the staff you are trying to help.

 

Best advice on this thread! A comment based on compassion. Thank you.

I pick who to tip, when to tip and how much to tip.

 

Worst advice on this thread! A comment based on to the need to have total control.

But I don’t want to feel like an idiot subsidizing cruising for some smart people who are just removing them to save money.

 

Those people aren't being smart. They are being selfish.

Edited April 15, 2018 by sloopsailor

[NLH Arizona]

1. Never pay tips in advance, the crew never see it.

Could you please show proof of this. Some have said this in the past, but no one has ever shown proof other than their Cabin Steward told them and, of course, they gave that Cabin Steward a large cash tip.:o Edited April 15, 2018 by NLH Arizona

[bUU]

I'll summarise my two points you misread:

I didn't misread anything. I said that you're wrong about what you claimed and that your argument is fallacious

 

 

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[sparks1093]

And we can agree if you can change one person to keep the Auto Service fee in place, I know I can get two people to remove it. So our reasons are really the same. But as I see it you are not advocating for the crew in fact your position hurts the crew. If you really cared about the crew you would be pushing for the cruise line to pay the staff.

 

A few posters back made a great point any senior homes, most of the working staff is at low wages, but they do not get tips. Why not advocate for your fellow Americans who live, work and pay taxes in the United States? We cannot solve the problem of the World if you took all the money from the 10 riches people in the World and gave to the poorest people, a week later the only change would be, more poor.

 

Please do not take this personal because while I believe your heart is in the right place. The way the Corporations have twisted and framed this have you making the wrong choice. As I already said this system does more harm to the crew than good..

 

The only way the compensation system is going to change is if the crew themselves push for it. I would support them if they did that, but from all that I've read and seen the vast majority of them are quite happy with the status quo (especially since many of them have the ability to earn 2 to 4 times what they could make at home doing similar work), so I'm not going to pee in their pond on their behalf. Very few Americans are actually employed on cruise ships, so I'm not sure where you are going with that. I know a good many people that make a very good living earning tips and their only real complaint (other than people stiffing them) is the lack of hours to work, which is a lament of many hourly employees in general. The companies and the crew agree on terms and for my part all I can do is, well, my part, which is leaving the gratuities in place. That way every crewmember is supposed to get a share does.

[Velvetwater]

I didn't misread anything. I said that you're wrong about what you claimed and that your argument is fallacious

 

 

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The fact you went off topic and the fact you avoided the points made proves otherwise. No amount of Thesaurus use hides that.

 

I have still not seen a good argument for the US tipping/service model from anybody on here or elsewhere.

Although I must stop posting in these tipping threads as it goes in the same circles and as a non US citizen I will always be a minority here. Some people will not see the truth when it is put plainly in front of them.

 

I leave my grats on for sure when I cruise but that's only because I want to make sure the people who serve me are OK.

[Texas Tillie]

The fact you went off topic and the fact you avoided the points made proves otherwise. No amount of Thesaurus use hides that.

 

I have still not seen a good argument for the US tipping/service model from anybody on here or elsewhere.

Although I must stop posting in these tipping threads as it goes in the same circles and as a non US citizen I will always be a minority here. Some people will not see the truth when it is put plainly in front of them.

 

I leave my grats on for sure when I cruise but that's only because I want to make sure the people who serve me are OK.

 

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. Lord knows there are many things done in the UK that the vast majority of Americans either don't get or think is just insane.

 

My thought is that ship's crew are not slaves, they sign contracts with the terms spelled out. If the "system" is so awful, why do they do that?

[Joebucks]

The only way the compensation system is going to change is if the crew themselves push for it.

 

I honestly believe the crew is the last group that could influence this. It would have to come from customers.

 

I absolutely LOATHE our tipping culture in America. We prepay gratuities on cruises to pay the workers a more reasonable wage. Which is fine and dandy until there is the option for some people to remove it as they see fit. So either some people aren't paid when the customer doesn't understand what they do, or they're choose not to tip at all. That in there is my problem with it, customers get to choose when a worker doesn't get paid, and the rest of us are supposed to subsidize it.

 

A tip is supposed to be an extra pay to recognize outstanding service. Everyone should pay that same amount in "gratuities" built into the fare. If everyone paid it, the actual amount for everyone should actually decrease. Then everyone should be free to give extra tips based off of the service they receive. Not this forced system of subsidization.

[sparks1093]

I honestly believe the crew is the last group that could influence this. It would have to come from customers.

 

I absolutely LOATHE our tipping culture in America. We prepay gratuities on cruises to pay the workers a more reasonable wage. Which is fine and dandy until there is the option for some people to remove it as they see fit. So either some people aren't paid when the customer doesn't understand what they do, or they're choose not to tip at all. That in there is my problem with it, customers get to choose when a worker doesn't get paid, and the rest of us are supposed to subsidize it.

 

A tip is supposed to be an extra pay to recognize outstanding service. Everyone should pay that same amount in "gratuities" built into the fare. If everyone paid it, the actual amount for everyone should actually decrease. Then everyone should be free to give extra tips based off of the service they receive. Not this forced system of subsidization.

 

If the workers aren't willing to stand up for themselves (if they are unhappy with the status quo) why should anyone else stand up for them?

 

If they are happy with the way things are, why should anyone else stand up for something they don't want in the first place?

 

And if people are really worried about this particular class of worker being "exploited" then cruising is probably not the vacation they should be taking.

 

I figure it's no different than going out to eat at a restaurant, the tip is part of the meal and it is most definitely expected. I always look at it as a commission paid directly by the customer to the worker.

[sparks1093]

The fact you went off topic and the fact you avoided the points made proves otherwise. No amount of Thesaurus use hides that.

 

I have still not seen a good argument for the US tipping/service model from anybody on here or elsewhere.

Although I must stop posting in these tipping threads as it goes in the same circles and as a non US citizen I will always be a minority here. Some people will not see the truth when it is put plainly in front of them.

 

I leave my grats on for sure when I cruise but that's only because I want to make sure the people who serve me are OK.

 

There doesn't need to be a good argument, it is what it is (after evolving over a very long period of time). I always travel under the premise "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". I make it a point to learn local custom and comply with it, regardless of my personal feeling on the matter. (And in the case of a cruise ship, that constitutes "Rome".)

[Grandma Dazzles]

 

I have still not seen a good argument for the US tipping/service model from anybody on here or elsewhere.

Although I must stop posting in these tipping threads as it goes in the same circles and as a non US citizen I will always be a minority here. Some people will not see the truth when it is put plainly in front of them.

 

I leave my grats on for sure when I cruise but that's only because I want to make sure the people who serve me are OK.

 

Just to make sure you understand the "US tipping//service model" a large majority of non cruise ship employees in the US work for a minimum salary, sometimes under $3 an hour, depending on the state, and therefore are used to tipping, especially in the food service industry. My home state I believe is $2.13 to $2.33 per hour. They often also have to share their tips with bus boys and bartenders. Perhaps that's why most US citizens/residents are more likely to tip - many have often worked for minimum salary plus tips and know how it feels, without ever having worked on a cruise ship.

[mom says]

Well isn't this predictable. ANOTHER vitriolic tipping thread to add to the hundreds of previous ones. Just what was needed. Instigated by a poster who has never had a single positive post on this entire forum. Every single one of her threads has been negative and designed to stir controversy . And people get sucked in and respond (me included). If this isn't the definition of ... well here's the definition, you decide if she fits:

 

a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal, on-topic discussion,[3]

[bUU]

The fact you went off topic and the fact you avoided the points made proves otherwise.

I didn't go off topic. I just posted comments you didn't like. As others said above, agree to disagree when that happens.

 

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[Velvetwater]

Just to make sure you understand the "US tipping//service model" a large majority of non cruise ship employees in the US work for a minimum salary, sometimes under $3 an hour, depending on the state, and therefore are used to tipping, especially in the food service industry. My home state I believe is $2.13 to $2.33 per hour. They often also have to share their tips with bus boys and bartenders. Perhaps that's why most US citizens/residents are more likely to tip - many have often worked for minimum salary plus tips and know how it feels, without ever having worked on a cruise ship.

 

Yes I am aware of this which is why I wonder how its been able to go no so long. I wouldn't be debating on tipping threads if I knew nothing of the above. We tip around 18%ish when in the US.

 

In the same way most Europeans and so forth are less used to tipping/tipping a larger amount because we are used to a minimum wage for waiters etc. For the UK that is £7.83 ($11.20) which is higher than some and lower than others. Many Brits debate this should be even higher due to living costs.

[Velvetwater]

I didn't go off topic. I just posted comments you didn't like. As others said above, agree to disagree when that happens.

 

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You avoided the points because you didn't like what I said.

 

I am in complete agreement and aware I (and possibly the OP and other types from across the pond) and someAmericans come at this from a very different angle.

 

But alas, I still post.

[bUU]

 

But alas, I still post.

 

And it boggles the mind.

 

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[myfuzzy]

Lets talk about tipping

 

I'd much rather talk about passing kidney stones, thank you.

 

NOW, that's something I can really relate to!

[Sea Hag]

If I can't rely on the cruise line to pass the tips onto the crew then I can't trust the cruise line to get me to where I'm going.

 

I second this!

[DirtyDawg]

NOW, that's something I can really relate to!

 

:eek:

Yep, actually passing one might be less painful than reading yet another tipping thread.;)

[sloopsailor]

:eek:

Yep, actually passing one might be less painful than reading yet another tipping thread.;)

 

To me, a tipping thread is like having a kidney. It's function is to get something cleared up. Hopefully it does the job as intended.

 

It's reading posts from a very select group of foreigners constantly griping about the unfairness of having to tip, the never ending boasting about removing the tips, and the sanctimonious "pay them a living wage" comments is what feels like passing a kidney stone to me. ;p

[iancal]

We view the auto tip as part of the fare. We are really simply paying part of the cruise lines wage expense. We do not view it as a tip for good service. We would never consider removing it.

 

We tip extra for good service. Not normal service that we expect but rather for someone who goes out of their way to provide a high level of personal service. It is a private matter between us and the individual.

 

We really don't care what anyone else does nor would we consider judging them for it. It is simply not our business or our concern.

[DirtyDawg]

To me, a tipping thread is like having a kidney. It's function is to get something cleared up. Hopefully it does the job as intended.

 

It's reading posts from a very select group of foreigners constantly griping about the unfairness of having to tip, the never ending boasting about removing the tips, and the sanctimonious "pay them a living wage" comments is what feels like passing a kidney stone to me. ;p

 

So you've only passed a half of a kidney stone. ;)