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Repeating main shows?


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Difficult to imagine the ever popular John Charles anywhere but the Walt Disney Theatre!! But this is so much a matter of taste. For us, anything is better than a magician or hypnotist (or indeed most variety acts) :-)

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At the end of the day, the discussion DCL should have is “what is our standard for performers and acts that perform on the stage in the Walt Disney Theatre?”. The answer is not to repeat a main show on a consecutive night in the WDT, it is to improve the quality of the acts that are on the WDT stage when the Walt Disney Performers are not performing. I agree some of the variety acts don’t merit that particular stage. My answer would be to replace that talent with talent that merits the WDT stage, performers and variety acts where we as guests as enthused and excited to go to these shows, our response is “wow” and we want to mark the entertainment as “exceptional” on a comment card.

 

The recent 11 night Southern Caribbean cruise on the Disney Fantasy looks like an attempt to do what I am describing above. There were no repeat performances of main stage shows on a consecutive evening. The lineup of variety acts and performers looked strong, although I don’t know some of the comedy acts. But, there was a broadway performer, and an acapella group, Voice Play, which is, in my view, quite an outstanding group.

 

We have done a number of DCL cruises and, from time-to-time, we do skip some of the shows we have seen previously. That creates the free time another poster was seeking. But, a great show in the WDT makes for a wonderful DCL experience.

 

 

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The answer is not to repeat a main show on a consecutive night in the WDT, it is to improve the quality of the acts that are on the WDT stage when the Walt Disney Performers are not performing. I agree some of the variety acts don’t merit that particular stage. My answer would be to replace that talent with talent that merits the WDT stage, performers and variety acts where we as guests as enthused and excited to go to these shows, our response is “wow” and we want to mark the entertainment as “exceptional” on a comment card.
Disney is doing too much of that kind of decision-making already, based on what drives our decisions to cruise. The cruise is worth so much because of what they offer, as things are now. And the fares reflect that. Disney has priced itself so high such that, despite the fact that we have been visiting their theme parks every year for the last quarter century, we've only been on their cruise ships once. The fares are too high for us to justify.

 

While some may prefer keeping the quality high because they can justify the commensurately higher fares, some of us would prefer some compromise. This is Disney; they're not stupid. They're not going keep the quality high and keep the fares low. Yes, we're already paying a lot, but everything is relative. We just paid a lot on Holland America, too. You pay a lot for a cruise - period. Pile on top of that the Disney name, the Disney characters and other exclusive IP, the guest/cast member dynamic, and superior entertainment, and any reasonable cruise line is going to force you to pay yet-even-more, and we cannot justify that expense.

 

Please let me be clear, though: I don't think Disney should change. I think they're doing great as they are - without us. They're offering a better product than what we can justify, but there are more than enough others who are looking for what they're offering today. We lower budget cruisers aren't the ones that their business relies on. My point though is that things aren't so simple such that we can say, "They should have quality {this} high," because having quality {that} high means having fares at a certain level, and perhaps that means raising fares faster when the marketplace is telling them to raise fares slower.

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bUU, the problem with this logic is that the quality on board is slipping while the prices continue to rise. We've been on DCL cruises thru the years with many of the excellent entertainers who are appearing today when our per diem costs were half of what they are now or less. While I haven't checked in recent years, DCL previously was the one area of Disney that ALWAYS made a profit. This included the time right after 9/11 and the years when the films were in a slump. DCL ships sail nearly full all the time; yes, there is the question of "at what fare?" since some are filled with people at CM or TA rates.

 

I think what is driving the high prices on DCL is essentially "because we can." Yes, DCL is my favorite line, but at 2-4 times the cost of other lines with more interesting itineraries, we start to question. I used to argue that DCL didn't make money off a casino and ran a costly kid program. Guess what? Other lines have popular kid programs; many get better reviews from kids and parents than DCL gets! Do you think they doubled the salary of the featured entertainers as their cruise fares doubled? I doubt it. In any event, if they were making a profit 10 years ago with very similar entertainers, I don't think that accounts for the marked fare increases. Yes, there is inflation, but not at this level. They are paying for three new ships...but every other line has new ships in the pipeline as well. I really think the answer is that fares are so high to make corporate profit. So they are doing their job by their shareholders. Meanwhile, I shall enjoy my next cruise for $6000 for 2 weeks in a while DCL was charging $10000 for one week in the same part of the world.

 

Many performers are do not limit themselves to DCL. We have seen the same performer(s) on other lines. For instance we saw a variety act on Celebrity that we'd previously seen on DCL and a musical entertainment act on Princess that we'd seen first on DCL. And honestly, some of the DCL standards are getting a little old. We love "Mr. Tennis Ball," but that act has not updated since the first time we saw it! Credit does go to those like John Charles who DO update their performances. Yes, DCL has some "Disney exclusive" entertainers, but that's usually due to their Disney history in films and such. They are the special entertainment on the long/special cruises.

Edited by moki'smommy
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bUU' date=' the problem with this logic is that the quality on board is slipping while the prices continue to rise. [/quote'] That's pretty linear thinking. Why do you assume that prices wouldn't have risen FASTER than they have, were quality to be more in line with your expectations? Are you saying that people pay the same regardless of quality? If so, that is preposterous.

 

Prices are a reflection of perceived value. No one is forced to cruise, so as always prices will reflect the value that the preponderance of customers place on what is being provided. If you don't feel that cruises remain worth the price, then perhaps your preferences are no longer in synch with that of the market that is setting the prices and dictating the service specification.

 

 

 

This message may have been drafted using voice recognition. Please forgive any typos.

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Perhaps fair. My views are obviously not aligned with those of the DCL corporate executives at this point.

While we typically research DCL cruises first when planning a cruise vacation, more often we are finding more interesting cruises on other lines. And that's sad, because in many ways I do prefer DCL.

 

Repetitive itineraries and high prices are not part of those preferences. But it seems that there are plenty of new cruisers, younger families, etc. willing to fill the gap.

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While we typically research DCL cruises first when planning a cruise vacation' date=' more often we are finding more interesting cruises on other lines. And that's sad, because in many ways I do prefer DCL. Repetitive itineraries and high prices are not part of those preferences. But it seems that there are plenty of new cruisers, younger families, etc. willing to fill the gap.[/quote']Maybe; maybe not: Think about the most common complaints we read about Disney's theme parks on non-Disney forums: They are overpriced; They are packaged experiences instead of real experiences; They are really just a few different types of experiences (roller coasters, dark rides, simulators, etc.) repackaged over and over again with different IP; The parks are captive environments where a decent meal includes a rabidly "unfair" convenience premium; etc. If your family is like my family, and visits Disney theme parks every year and sometimes two or three times a year, you may also not place much value on these complaints about the Disney theme parks. Head over to a Disney-specific forum and you will quickly learn that there is surely a similar (and large enough) set of DCL fans who don't place much value on our complaints about DCL, just as don't we much value on the above-mentioned complaints about Disney theme parks.
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We have wandered from the original issue of repeating main shows. First, DCL is a part of Disney's "Parks and Resorts" segment. There are no disclosed financial results for DCL within the financial statements of The Walt Disney Company. Parks and Resorts makes an operating margin of about 20% (and requires high investments in fixed assets). The largest and most profitable segment is "Media Networks" which makes an operating margin of about 30% (and requires much less investment in fixed assets but much higher investments through acquisitions). All in all The Walt Disney Company is very profitable, although the Media Networks segment has been under attack for quite some time, and is subject to dilution from technology disruption which has caused consumers to "cut the cord" from traditional sources of media content. This is why Disney has so aggressively pursued the acquisition of the Fox assets - to add to other assets like Marvel and to build a streaming platform that competes with Netflix and the like.

 

The commitment to build three new DCL cruise ships does show up as a commitment in the Disney financial statements, but is a blip on the radar when compared to commitments for Broadcast Programming. Once can only assume that DCL is highly profitable based on the commitment to build three new cruise ships. The return on capital from the cruise ship investments must be quite attractive for Disney to make these investments (i.e. returns from cruise operating profits compared to ship investments is higher than from alternative Park and Resort investments). The Walt Disney Company is very well run financially. Personally, I believe this benefits those who enjoy Disney experiences. These profits are what keep the Disney assets, whether it be a theme park or cruise ship, operating, maintained and "re-imagined" to the highest possible quality.

 

This kind of financial discipline leads to interesting strategies around value and pricing. Its a bit confounding, even annoying, but works. Disney is not inclined to discount their product, whether it be the Theme Parks or DCL. Essentially it is a value price. It is astounding that they can continue to increase pricing yet fill the parks and cruise ships! As long as they can do this, they will increase pricing to maximize profits. That creates a market of cruisers who are willing to pay for the "Disney Experience" and as BUU and Moki'smommy point out, another group of cruisers who are unwilling or less willing to pay for the DCL premium. But, dilute the Disney Experience and the ability to value price at a premium will not work. I do acknowledge they fine tune things that result in some dilution of the Experience, but do too much of that and it will backfire.

 

Personally, I believe DCL is very sensitive to protecting the Disney Experience and ensuring that it is not diluted. This brings us back to the repetition of main shows. One of the key elements of the DCL experience is entertainment in the Walt Disney Theater. First, the WDT is like nothing else I have seen at sea. It is "special", and if it ceases to be, then the value of a DCL cruise diminishes and less people may be willing to cruise with DCL. I don't know what motivated DCL to experiment with repetition of main shows on consecutive nights, but my sense is that is was not about profitably as much as tinkering with improving the experience. This tactic seems to have failed. But the strategy is likely to improve the entertainment experience, and that means replacing some of the same old acts with new, fresh variety acts and performers. This is an area that needed to be addressed by DCL - some of the variety acts are stale. They have refreshed the ships through re-imagination, now they need to do the same with entertainment. Tiana's Place is an example where this has been very successful (re-imagined the venue AND added enjoyable entertainment).

 

One of the most interesting events on our recent Alaskan cruise was the Premium and Gold Castaway Cay special event. Captain Henry spoke a bit about the three new ships, and asked cruisers to envision a ship that travels around the world in a year, from the Pacific Coast of the US, to Hawaii, to Japan and Asia, Australia, and back up to Europe and across the Atlantic to South American and the Eastern seaboard of the US. This is similar to what many of the other cruise lines do with their itineraries (180 day Cruise, World Cruise, or segments thereof). If this is really what DCL is considering, this would take DCL away from the repetitive itineraries (at least on one ship) that cause long time cruisers to seek alternatives. The issue will be "at what price"? 4 ships vs. 7-8 creates a whole new set of dynamics. And many challenges, like having well-trained crew that can deliver the Disney Experience. I have no idea how DCL will price these new markets. History says that is won't be a discounting model.

Edited by STHCruising
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DCL used to be a separate entity of some sort under the Disney umbrella. Until Karl Holz took over responsibility for both DCL and ABD, there was also a separate president. Technically, DCL is registered/licensed/whatever as "Magical Cruise Line" in the UK! I have a couple of shareholder statements from ages ago that do list DCL separately--I tossed them in a drawer because the artwork was so good! And various execs would pride themselves on what was happening financially within DCL. However...as you noted, irrelevant to the original discussion.

 

Now there is an individual who is in charge of something that has been re-named something like "Disney Premier Experiences" (I may not have the name exactly right--it was in the latest Disney Files edition)...which includes DVC, DCL, and ABD. Interesting.

 

I LOVE what you reported from Captain Henry. That sounds interesting. The concept of a second DCL terminal, even a shared one, at PC was disheartening as it seemed to imply more cruises from PC...more of the same.

 

Disney has always had several price points. Or perhaps a better description would be one entry level with plenty of "add ons" if you wanted a different/better/more costly experience. On the ships, obviously this is the various concierge levels. In the parks, it includes things like the behind the scenes tours, private VIP guides, etc. You could stay at the Grand Floridian or the All Star(s). They've certainly learned how to generate profit. And, as you pointed out, as long as they can fill parks, hotels, ships, or whatever, they will continue to push the envelope.

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Moki’smommy - it’s now called Disney “Signature” Experiences and includes DVC, ABD and DCL as you indicated.

 

I did ready Disney’s annual report filed with the SEC before writing the last post. I am going to research to see if there are any public filings for Disney Magical Cruise Lines. These would not be SEC filings but something else. I suspect Disney does their best not to disclose more about segments than the SEC requires.

 

On a more personal note, in the old days (before I retired!) we would cruise in a concierge suite. We then went into Category 4 (Deluxe Family Veranda Suite on Deck 8). Now, we do a Category 5 on Deck 6. And we find it doesn’t really change the experience for us. So, in some sense, that is how we have adjusted to pricing. We also have learned with just two of us we don’t need a bigger stateroom and enjoy Deck 6 on the classics ships.

 

We are doing an embedded ABD add-on in the Mediterranean next year with our adult kids. Pricey. But that is all about a better experience.

 

I will pay a DCL premium for a Disney Experience - but there are many other options if that experience dilutes significantly below our expectations. Also, after 23 DCL cruises, itinerary variety is a big buyer value for us. We aren’t much interested in Caribbean cruises, other than they are easier for our kids to do. So, I hope what Captain Henry described is indeed part of DCL’s future. By the way, he is a very nice and approachable Captain. He was at the gangway as everyone debarked from our nine night Alaskan cruise, thanking folks and wishing safe travels. Nice, classy touch!

 

 

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As a follow-up to my last post, I was able to locate a set of financial statements for Magical Cruise Company, Limited, that were filed under UK corporate law using UK financial reporting standards. These were for the most recent Disney fiscal year ended September, 2017, and reported revenue of $1.371 billion, and operating profit of $296.7 million, or an operating margin of 21.6%, just slightly higher than the overall Parks and Resorts margin percentage. I don’t know if these financials are comparable to the Walt Disney financials, as these were prepared under UK accounting standards vs US GAAP. What was interesting, is two of the ships are leased! I can’t determine if they are leased from another Walt Disney entity. Bottom line, is it appears DCL is comparable in profitability to other Park and Resorts businesses.

 

 

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Personally, I believe DCL is very sensitive to protecting the Disney Experience and ensuring that it is not diluted. This brings us back to the repetition of main shows.
Based on what you said up to this point in the quoted message, there is no reason to believe that the repetition of main shows has any significant impact on "the Disney Experience" for enough customers that it trumps the opposite effect on other passengers, especially in the context that whatever investment may have previously been directed that way may now be directed some other way, or toward rationalizing slower fare increases, which enhance "the Disney Experience" for enough customers that it trumps the opposite effect on other passengers. As you wrote, "The Walt Disney Company is very well run financially." There is no reason to believe that what they're doing is anything other than a reflection of what the best balance is between the alternatives available to them.

 

I don't know what motivated DCL to experiment with repetition of main shows on consecutive nights, but my sense is that is was not about profitably as much as tinkering with improving the experience.
One thing I've learned about Disney over the last few decades: First, they typically experiment on such a small scale that you barely notice it. Second, even their experiments are backed up by a body of research showing a high likelihood of benefit to them from the experiment.

 

... now they need to ...
The other thing that I've come to understand over the last few decades is that we consumers are notoriously poor at determining what the commercial, for-profit businesses need to do, in their own best interest. We are far too biased in favor of what's good for us personally, or what's good for consumers generally, to adequately factor in the extent to which what's best for the business may not be good for consumers, something that is true far more often than we consumers are generally willing to admit, especially when it comes to Disney.
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BUU, I don’t fully follow all of your counter points. My rebuttal to you is that the profits that Disney makes are a reflection of the experience they deliver to consumers. And, over a long period of time, Disney has grown their business, so my thesis would be they are meeting the expectations of their defined customer base. As a former CEO, strategy and corporate finance type, it’s never exclusively about the money. The most successful companies, and I count Disney in this group, know that they make no money without satisfied customers. They measure consumer feedback, watch the analytics, they adjust, and remake themselves as needed to align their best interest with their customer base.

 

As far as the repetition of main shows on consecutive nights, I have not seen a test that was so universally despised. The cruise director was meeting with concierge level guests to take feedback. Even the variety acts were not happy. So, I cannot agree with your assessment that this test has not had a significant impact on the Disney Experience. By the end of our cruise DCL was moving variety acts back into the Walt Disney Theatre, and doing repeat performances of main shows as a matinee. That’s adjusting the test based on guest feedback.

 

 

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Edited by STHCruising
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The last Navigators posted from June appear to show that they ran Alladin on 2 nights and Believe on 2 nights in the Fantasy. Another night was the Incredibles 2. I am getting ready to drop $9k on a Merrytime Cruise. If this is so widely despised, somebody please tell me that Disney is done with this "test".

 

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Only DCL knows when the test is complete. But, if you look at the Navigator from the June 30, 11 night Southern Caribbean sailing of the the Fantasy (no repeat of main shows on consecutive nights), and the adjustments DCL made during our 9 night Alaskan Cruise, they seem to be getting the message. I exchanged emails with the head of DCL and their goal is outstanding entertainment. This test seems to be a tactical failure, but I am hopeful they will get the right strategy for entertainment long run.

 

Checkout the most recent Navigators on Disneycruiselineblog.com to get a sense of how entertainment is being scheduled.

 

We did the Merrytime Cruise last year during Christmas week. It is a pricey cruise, and I suspect DCL will have the entertainment dialed in before we reach that season of cruising.

 

 

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  • 1 month later...

We are on Transatlantic cruise from Dover to NY. Only the variety shows are repeated in the evening, at 10 and 11. Otherwise no repetition at all. I was in 11 night on fantasy in the Caribbean in July. Again no repetition of any show. In the last few years We only do 9 nights or more. Even 7 nights Is too few for us. And we are on 21st cruise with Disney. I’ve never been on one with shows that repeat. Maybe we’ve been lucky.

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We are on Transatlantic cruise from Dover to NY. Only the variety shows are repeated in the evening, at 10 and 11. Otherwise no repetition at all. I was in 11 night on fantasy in the Caribbean in July. Again no repetition of any show. In the last few years We only do 9 nights or more. Even 7 nights Is too few for us. And we are on 21st cruise with Disney. I’ve never been on one with shows that repeat. Maybe we’ve been lucky.

It's been a recent "test" that DCL was running. Repeating the main shows a second night. Usually with only with one show at 7:15 (so really messes up seeing it a dining times).

 

There's been a lot of "please, don't" response to it, and it seems that DCL may not continue with the "test".

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The last Navigators posted from June appear to show that they ran Alladin on 2 nights and Believe on 2 nights in the Fantasy. Another night was the Incredibles 2. I am getting ready to drop $9k on a Merrytime Cruise. If this is so widely despised, somebody please tell me that Disney is done with this "test".

 

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DCL has been inconsistent. Looking at recent Navigators, most of them have repeats of main shows. However, a recent sailing on the Fantasy did not. I do think they have toned it down just a bit. But, I think they are still in "test" and it is possible that you will have repeat shows on your planned cruise. Merrytime is a very special cruise theme, and I would hope for the premium they charge on this cruise that you would experience really good entertainment.

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We are on Transatlantic cruise from Dover to NY. Only the variety shows are repeated in the evening, at 10 and 11. Otherwise no repetition at all. I was in 11 night on fantasy in the Caribbean in July. Again no repetition of any show. In the last few years We only do 9 nights or more. Even 7 nights Is too few for us. And we are on 21st cruise with Disney. I’ve never been on one with shows that repeat. Maybe we’ve been lucky.

 

Just to clarify. The repeated shows at 10 and 11 were the ones in Fathoms for the adults. Fathoms has a limited capacity and some of the shows were very popular.

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Just to clarify. The repeated shows at 10 and 11 were the ones in Fathoms for the adults. Fathoms has a limited capacity and some of the shows were very popular.

The complaints about repeated shows is when DCL is repeating the 3 main shows in the WDT on subsequent nights.

 

Not the repeating of the individual entertainers (as that's always done).

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The complaints about repeated shows is when DCL is repeating the 3 main shows in the WDT on subsequent nights.

 

Not the repeating of the individual entertainers (as that's always done).

 

I understand that. i was just clarifying Cedricandsophie's specific comment about the late shows. Because the WBTA had seventy percent capacity and on the smaller Magic, there was no need to repeat the shows in the WDT. There were plenty of empty seats in Tangled and Disney Dreams (we didn't attend Twice Charmed).

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I understand that. i was just clarifying Cedricandsophie's specific comment about the late shows. Because the WBTA had seventy percent capacity and on the smaller Magic, there was no need to repeat the shows in the WDT. There were plenty of empty seats in Tangled and Disney Dreams (we didn't attend Twice Charmed).

The WBTA also attracts a lot of repeat cruisers who have often seen the shows many times. Obviously, that is less likely with Tangled, but the combination of lower passenger count (many cabins are filled by 2 persons) and the repeaters would lend itself to a far less full theater. Yes, the Magic is a smaller ship, but the WDT on the Magic also has a lower seating capacity than on the giants.

 

When you say 70% capacity, I trust you are talking about passenger load being 70% of max rather than 70% of cabins being booked. Most statistics show the Magic's cruises averaging 3.1-3.2 passengers per cabin (and remember that some cabins can only hold 3 people), while on the TAs they tend to run a bit over 2 persons per cabin.

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The WBTA also attracts a lot of repeat cruisers who have often seen the shows many times. Obviously' date=' that is less likely with Tangled, but the combination of lower passenger count (many cabins are filled by 2 persons) and the repeaters would lend itself to a far less full theater. Yes, the Magic is a smaller ship, but the WDT on the Magic also has a lower seating capacity than on the giants.

 

When you say 70% capacity, I trust you are talking about passenger load being 70% of max rather than 70% of cabins being booked. Most statistics show the Magic's cruises averaging 3.1-3.2 passengers per cabin (and remember that some cabins can only hold 3 people), while on the TAs they tend to run a bit over 2 persons per cabin.[/quote']

 

That is correct. 70% of passenger load. With less children, there were many more cabins with only two occupants.

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