First time cruisers-passport question

[sparks1093]

Speaking of "validity," the mathematical problem with "statistical odds" when it comes to cruising is that there are just too many "variables" to make them useful. It isn't horse racing.

 

And, as is the case with any odds, on any given day, you can be the "loser."

 

Moreover, any argument suggesting that it's "no big deal" if you get stuck in a foreign country (requiring air travel to return home) and/or that travel insurance will honor a "trip interruption" claim arising from intentional negligence (i.e., not bringing a passport as opposed to losing it) is just so fallacious.

 

Of course, where Sparks is correct is that each person needs to "assess their own risk." However, it is my contention that, like so many other arenas requiring human judgement (preparing for disasters, retirement, etc), a surprising number of folks are incapable and/or too lazy to do their homework and/or the "right thing." And, thus, they remain clueless as to what exactly they are risking and how much it would ultimately cost (money, time, effort) to rectify problems that may arise.

 

On a side note about "odds":

We live fairly close to the Hayward Fault. Though our last major earthquake was about 20 years ago (Loma Prieta), the "odds" of having "the big one" this morning are "slim to none." Yet, under our bed you will always find shoes, flashlight and a blue bar. Like a passport, small price to pay to make life easier if they're ever needed.

 

From the first hand accounts that I've read it's not fallacious at all, it normally does not take that long for arrangements to be made to fly back to the US and a good travel insurance plan would pay for any expenses caused by the delay. It is one of the main roles of the State Department is to aid US citizens in need in a foreign country, up to and including loaning them money if necessary to get them home (as a last resort). Just because someone is making a decision different than what you would make doesn't mean for a minute that they are intentionally negligent, either.

 

As for someone not using their correct judgment well, that's on them. It's not your job or my job to think for them or to make decisions for them. If someone wants to forego doing their homework and it ends up biting them that's on them and it doesn't affect you in the slightest. The fact is getting home mid-cruise is going to be just as expensive with a passport as it is without it in most cases. You still need to pay for your flight, you still need to pay for lodging, etc. and again, that is mitigated by having good travel insurance.

 

As for your analogy at the end, none of those items cost $110 and none of them expire, although you have to change the batteries in the flash light from time to time.

[Flatbush Flyer]

From the first hand accounts that I've read......

..... It is one of the main roles of the State Department is to aid US citizens in need in a foreign country.......

 

 

Without added time, energy and significant cost: Good luck with easily getting that emergency passport in some Caribbean countries/regions like Antigua and Barbuda; Dominica; Grenada; St. Kitts and Nevis; St. Lucia; and St. Vincent and the Grenadines.

 

 

As for that travel insurance: even with the "best" policy, read the fine print in the T&C where you may often find a statement confirming that the policy is not designed to cover "delays in obtaining a passport."

[sparks1093]

Without added time, energy and significant cost: Good luck with easily getting that emergency passport in some Caribbean countries/regions like Antigua and Barbuda; Dominica; Grenada; St. Kitts and Nevis; St. Lucia; and St. Vincent and the Grenadines.

 

 

As for that travel insurance: even with the "best" policy, read the fine print in the T&C where you may often find a statement confirming that the policy is not designed to cover "delays in obtaining a passport."

 

The easiest solution for a US citizen who needs to get home from a place without a State Department presence- put them on a plane and clear them at secondary inspection when they land. I've read about this happening at two Mexican ports and don't see why the result should be different at others.

 

Yes, people should be aware of the limitations and exclusions of their travel insurance. Personally I found it quite easy to purchase one without the exclusion that you mention.

 

And of course this is all relevant only IF something happens in the first place.

[Krazy Kruizers]

I am one of those people does believe that people should have passports. We are on our 6th ones.

PA is one of the stated that hasn't complied with the new driver licenses -- they will start to be issued in March 2019 -- if there aren't any more problems.

[Hlitner]

I guess more than 50 years of extensive travel have taught me that there are times to be cautious.   This Passport issue, as it pertains to closed loop cruises, has been an issue here on CC for many years.  I suspect that those who do not want to invest some money in Passports are not going to listen to anyone's advice.  But here is a very interesting story right from another part of CC:

 

Hank

[sparks1093]

8 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I guess more than 50 years of extensive travel have taught me that there are times to be cautious.   This Passport issue, as it pertains to closed loop cruises, has been an issue here on CC for many years.  I suspect that those who do not want to invest some money in Passports are not going to listen to anyone's advice.  But here is a very interesting story right from another part of CC:

 

Hank

How many of those incidents have we read about in the last few years on CC? There haven't been many that I can recall. In any event, this does speak to the issue of risk- if you are going to be participating in a high risk activity when in a port (and I count ATV driving as high risk) then it might be prudent to have a passport. In any event, most of their problems stemmed from not having the resources necessary to arrange for the proper medical care, the hospital wanted $10k up front before they would perform the treatment and it took them a while to get that kind of money (which of course speaks more to the premise of having good travel insurance). As I recall the couple was home in two days and while none of the articles gave too many details that seems about the amount of time it would take to be stabilized with those types of injuries (and they flew home on a commercial flight since they didn't have the resources to pay for a medevac). 

[SRF]

Depending on the medical issue, med evac may be on a commercial flight.  Or may not be required, just get on the plane and fly home.

[sparks1093]

18 minutes ago, SRF said:

Depending on the medical issue, med evac may be on a commercial flight.  Or may not be required, just get on the plane and fly home.

True enough but at first they were trying to arrange a medevac. Since they had trouble coming up with $10k I suspect they weren't in a position to raise the money necessary for a medevac. 

[Hlitner]

Everyone thinks it can never happen to them (something bad) which is human nature.  DW and I have been traveling together, all over the world, for more then 30 years.  And finally, a few months ago, while on a beach in Nha Trang, Vietnam it happened....DW suffered a freak accident (in the water) that severely injured one of her legs.  This led to a combination of circumstances which can best be summed up by "injured in Vietnam, outpatient surgery in Osaka, Japan, medical evacuation from Yokohama Japan to home where she received 3 months of additional medical treatment!   So trust me, things do happen and sometimes it is just fate.  A lifetime of extensive travel experience served us well, we were able to deal with many issues, and the outcome was good.  But, without valid Passports (which you had to have on this trip anyway), a few credit cards with very high credit limits, lots of travel smarts, decent medical insurance, and trip evacuation insurance...the situation would have been much worse.  

 

We do a lot of independent and cruise travel and it could be said we are addicted to International Travel.  Our philosophy is to do pre-trip planning, know all our options, and then just go and have fun.  But knowing your options and having the ability to know when to move to Plan B or even Plan C is an important part of successful independent travel.  When you travel anywhere outside your own country and do not carry a valid Passport, your options become very limited...or at best much more complicated.

 

Hank

[navybankerteacher]

On 10/8/2018 at 10:41 AM, sparks1093 said:

 

... a good travel insurance plan would pay for any expenses caused by the delay.

...

You still need to pay for your flight, you still need to pay for lodging, etc. and again, that is mitigated by having good travel insurance.

...

On 10/8/2018 at 10:41 AM, sparks1093 said:

 

 

You have frequently made logical arguments against spending $110 for a passport if all you are going to do is take short closed circuit cruises.

 

But, you must be kidding if you think the “prudent” traveler who opts to save that $110 is then going to spend his money on “... good travel insurance.”

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

...

 

You have frequently made logical arguments against spending $110 for a passport if all you are going to do is take short closed circuit cruises.

 

But, you must be kidding if you think the “prudent” traveler who opts to save that $110 is then going to spend his money on “... good travel insurance.”

To each his or her own, that's what it boils down to (and if someone opts not to have insurance then they are the ones that will pay the price for it, not me). And for a family it's much more than $110. There may be many people out there who think it prudent to spend $850 for passports for a 4 day cruise but I'm not one of them.

Edited October 25, 2018 by sparks1093

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Everyone thinks it can never happen to them (something bad) which is human nature.  DW and I have been traveling together, all over the world, for more then 30 years.  And finally, a few months ago, while on a beach in Nha Trang, Vietnam it happened....DW suffered a freak accident (in the water) that severely injured one of her legs.  This led to a combination of circumstances which can best be summed up by "injured in Vietnam, outpatient surgery in Osaka, Japan, medical evacuation from Yokohama Japan to home where she received 3 months of additional medical treatment!   So trust me, things do happen and sometimes it is just fate.  A lifetime of extensive travel experience served us well, we were able to deal with many issues, and the outcome was good.  But, without valid Passports (which you had to have on this trip anyway), a few credit cards with very high credit limits, lots of travel smarts, decent medical insurance, and trip evacuation insurance...the situation would have been much worse.  

 

We do a lot of independent and cruise travel and it could be said we are addicted to International Travel.  Our philosophy is to do pre-trip planning, know all our options, and then just go and have fun.  But knowing your options and having the ability to know when to move to Plan B or even Plan C is an important part of successful independent travel.  When you travel anywhere outside your own country and do not carry a valid Passport, your options become very limited...or at best much more complicated.

 

Hank

I hope your DW healed well and yes, freak accidents can happen which is a better argument for travel insurance than it is for a passport for a closed loop cruise (and as stated many people will forego that, too). And actually your experience backs up what I've been saying- in 30 years you've had one incident and that's with traveling all over the world. It most certainly can happen but for most cruisers the risk is very low and it's really up to them to make the decision to spend money on a document that they may not really need for their travel pattern. I know that for us it didn't make sense to get them for the 4 and 7 day cruises we were able to do once every year or two.

[Heidi13]

On 10/9/2018 at 4:06 AM, Krazy Kruizers said:

I am one of those people does believe that people should have passports. We are on our 6th ones.

PA is one of the stated that hasn't complied with the new driver licenses -- they will start to be issued in March 2019 -- if there aren't any more problems.

Totally agree. Had a passport continuously since I was 16. Now carry 2 passports and can't figure out why people would consider travelling outside the country without one.

 

Although we can cross into the US with an enhanced driver's licence, I still use a passport.

[sparks1093]

19 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

Totally agree. Had a passport continuously since I was 16. Now carry 2 passports and can't figure out why people would consider travelling outside the country without one.

 

Although we can cross into the US with an enhanced driver's licence, I still use a passport.

I drove up to Montreal this past Monday to pick someone up at the airport and used my EDL for the trip. Left my passport in the safe deposit box and didn't even think about using it. Many people in my border town will only ever travel to Canada in their lifetime and would find it laughable that someone would suggest that they should have a passport when a passport card or EDL works perfectly fine. Everyone has different travel patterns and travel needs and someone who will only be traveling on closed loop cruises every year or two may choose to use something other than a passport for that travel.

[SRF]

14 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

I hope your DW healed well and yes, freak accidents can happen which is a better argument for travel insurance than it is for a passport for a closed loop cruise (and as stated many people will forego that, too). And actually your experience backs up what I've been saying- in 30 years you've had one incident and that's with traveling all over the world. It most certainly can happen but for most cruisers the risk is very low and it's really up to them to make the decision to spend money on a document that they may not really need for their travel pattern. I know that for us it didn't make sense to get them for the 4 and 7 day cruises we were able to do once every year or two.

 

With the travel insurance, the one freak accident can have costs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Few people can afford that.

 

And in case of the freak accident, add in having to take care of getting passports with one person critical in the hospital.  Yeap, like you need more stress.

 

And I have mentioned a number of times on this site, you can buy travel insurance without insuring the actual cost of the trip/cruise.  For a LOT less money.  Coverage for just the unexpected things that are not budgeted for my last cruise (9 nights) was $32.

 

 

[sparks1093]

3 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

With the travel insurance, the one freak accident can have costs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.  Few people can afford that.

 

And in case of the freak accident, add in having to take care of getting passports with one person critical in the hospital.  Yeap, like you need more stress.

 

And I have mentioned a number of times on this site, you can buy travel insurance without insuring the actual cost of the trip/cruise.  For a LOT less money.  Coverage for just the unexpected things that are not budgeted for my last cruise (9 nights) was $32.

 

 

It comes down to comfort level- for me I didn't see it as a big deal with having to have that extra step IF something happened so I was comfortable not having a passport, others would want to avoid that. Different strokes for different folks. 

[Hlitner]

Perhaps it might be informative if I simply posted a statement right from the US Department of State's web site:

 

We recommend that everyone taking a cruise from the United States have a passport book. Though some “closed-loop” cruises may not require a U.S. passport, we recommend bringing yours in case of an emergency, such as an unexpected medical air evacuation or the ship docking at an alternate port. Also, your cruise company may require you to have a passport, even if U.S. Customs and Border Protection does not.

 

The latter statement is something that folks need to clarify.  There are some cruise lines who require a Passport, even if it is not a US Government requirement.  One example is Oceania which requires that all passengers have valid passports, even on a closed loop cruise.

 

Hank

[sparks1093]

21 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Perhaps it might be informative if I simply posted a statement right from the US Department of State's web site:

 

We recommend that everyone taking a cruise from the United States have a passport book. Though some “closed-loop” cruises may not require a U.S. passport, we recommend bringing yours in case of an emergency, such as an unexpected medical air evacuation or the ship docking at an alternate port. Also, your cruise company may require you to have a passport, even if U.S. Customs and Border Protection does not.

 

The latter statement is something that folks need to clarify.  There are some cruise lines who require a Passport, even if it is not a US Government requirement.  One example is Oceania which requires that all passengers have valid passports, even on a closed loop cruise.

 

Hank

Of course they recommend it, it makes their job easier if travelers have had a passport issued and they need assistance (and the sale of passports pays for passport operations). And yes, as frequently mentioned some cruise lines do require passports of all passengers. But for most passengers on a closed loop cruise it is still just a recommendation, each traveler is free to make up their own mind.

[SRF]

6 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

It comes down to comfort level- for me I didn't see it as a big deal with having to have that extra step IF something happened so I was comfortable not having a passport, others would want to avoid that. Different strokes for different folks. 

 

I was thinking more of the stress level on your family/traveling companion while you are in the hospital, and they are trying to get you a passport so you can be med evaced home.

 

Also, if you are in a place with no so good medical care, so you really want to be stuck there an extra day or two before being med evaced?

[sparks1093]

Just now, SRF said:

 

I was thinking more of the stress level on your family/traveling companion while you are in the hospital, and they are trying to get you a passport so you can be med evaced home.

 

Also, if you are in a place with no so good medical care, so you really want to be stuck there an extra day or two before being med evaced?

If I were that worried about someplace having substandard medical care would I bother to travel there in the first place? They weren't that worried about it either. And we wouldn't be alone, either, since the cruise line's port authority would be helping and the ombudsman for the travel insurance and family back home. 

[Hlitner]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

If I were that worried about someplace having substandard medical care would I bother to travel there in the first place? They weren't that worried about it either. And we wouldn't be alone, either, since the cruise line's port authority would be helping and the ombudsman for the travel insurance and family back home. 

If what you say was true, our recent serious emergency would have been a lot less "trying."  And we actually did better then some others we have met over the years.

 

Hank

[sparks1093]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

If what you say was true, our recent serious emergency would have been a lot less "trying."  And we actually did better then some others we have met over the years.

 

Hank

Those resources may not always be available but at least when cruising the port agent is a resource that is available (I suppose that some are better than others).

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

Those resources may not always be available but at least when cruising the port agent is a resource that is available (I suppose that some are better than others).

When you have real problems and needs, a capable and caring Port Agent is worth their weight in gold.  We had such an agent in Osaka, Japan who went above and beyond in meeting our needs.   But we were dealing with a major agency in a large metropolitan city where they had lots of resources.  Other agencies, especially in smaller ports, may not have the resources (staff) or know-how.  You have to remember that Port Agents are there to serve the cruise line, deal with formalities, help arrange for supplies, logistics, etc.  Helping passengers in need is actually a very small part of their job.  I should also mention that when you do get help in a port, it is not always free or inexpensive.  

 

There is no substitute for having somebody (hopefully your companion) who is a capable, clear thinking, powerful advocate.  One needs to know when to use charm and tact and when to make some "noise."   Many experienced travelers, especially those of us who are used to independent travel, can usually handle a crisis or situations when many things go wrong.  But there are also a lot of travelers who require a lot of "handholding" and can find themselves at the mercy of others who have their own agendas.   At the risk of offending many PC folks, the term "personal responsibility" really comes to mind.  And do not make the mistake of thinking that insurance companies, be they travel insurance or medical insurance, have your best interests in mind.  They are businesses, not hand holders.  Deal with them like a business and you will probably do OK.   But if you expect a lot of hand holding, you may be very disappointed.

 

And here is a very ugly truth about cruise lines.  They are also businesses.  If you have a medical emergency aboard a cruise it is in the best interests of the cruise line to get you off the ship ASAP.  Once you are ashore you are no longer their problem (or responsibility).  There are some wonderful folks who work on cruise ships and you might get lucky to get some folks that truly care about your well being. But that is not always the case.

Hank

[Heidi13]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Those resources may not always be available but at least when cruising the port agent is a resource that is available (I suppose that some are better than others).

Having been picked up, or driven to the airport by various ship's agents around the world, some are definitely better than others. In some lesser developed countries, where medical resources could be limited, the ship's agent might even speak a little English.

 

In China, it took us over a couple of hours to find an agent ashore with sufficient English to actually have a conversation.

[sparks1093]

6 hours ago, Hlitner said:

When you have real problems and needs, a capable and caring Port Agent is worth their weight in gold.  We had such an agent in Osaka, Japan who went above and beyond in meeting our needs.   But we were dealing with a major agency in a large metropolitan city where they had lots of resources.  Other agencies, especially in smaller ports, may not have the resources (staff) or know-how.  You have to remember that Port Agents are there to serve the cruise line, deal with formalities, help arrange for supplies, logistics, etc.  Helping passengers in need is actually a very small part of their job.  I should also mention that when you do get help in a port, it is not always free or inexpensive.  

 

There is no substitute for having somebody (hopefully your companion) who is a capable, clear thinking, powerful advocate.  One needs to know when to use charm and tact and when to make some "noise."   Many experienced travelers, especially those of us who are used to independent travel, can usually handle a crisis or situations when many things go wrong.  But there are also a lot of travelers who require a lot of "handholding" and can find themselves at the mercy of others who have their own agendas.   At the risk of offending many PC folks, the term "personal responsibility" really comes to mind.  And do not make the mistake of thinking that insurance companies, be they travel insurance or medical insurance, have your best interests in mind.  They are businesses, not hand holders.  Deal with them like a business and you will probably do OK.   But if you expect a lot of hand holding, you may be very disappointed.

 

And here is a very ugly truth about cruise lines.  They are also businesses.  If you have a medical emergency aboard a cruise it is in the best interests of the cruise line to get you off the ship ASAP.  Once you are ashore you are no longer their problem (or responsibility).  There are some wonderful folks who work on cruise ships and you might get lucky to get some folks that truly care about your well being. But that is not always the case.

Hank

Fortunately I am not one that needs a lot of hand holding and if someone does then they should probably factor that into their decision whether or not to get a passport. I fully understand that a cruise line is a business but because they are a business they do respond to public opinion and I doubt that any of them wants to be known as the cruise line that drops passengers off and just forgets about them.