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Cargo ship voyage insurance


Julian_S
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2 hours ago, cruising cockroach said:

How high's the CoG on the ship?  No stabs, I'm quite sure.  I think they chain down the vehicles?

 

A 131,000 dwt container ship can still roll (reportedly more than 25 degrees each way where the crew can't even sleep).  Surprising that the containers above the bottom 3 stacked on the deck don't roll off more than they already do!

While local coastal voyages may not chain the vehicles, on any ocean voyage they must be secured with multiple chains/turnbuckles.

 

Rather than CoG, the departure GM is what I would be more interested in. A lower GM provides a slow roll, but going over to more extreme angles. If the GM is higher, the ship may not roll as far, but it will snap back quickly. All Ro/Pax vessels I commanded had higher GM's than your average cruise ship.

 

Only experienced a very high GM once when we had steel in the lower hold and it was a very uncomfortable trip around the UK coast.

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

As for containers on a ship's deck, these are locked together in the stack, and the stack is lashed down with steel rods.

 

As I observed on the container ship I was on, only the bottom 3 tiers of above-deck containers were lashed down with steel rods.  Anything above (up to another 5) was just held down by those locking pins (or whatever the term for those devices are) at the corner to the container below. 

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2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

A Ro/Ro vessel will have the vehicles chained down.  And they will have anti-roll ballast tanks, but no stabilizers.  The big problem with Ro/Ro's is that the "house" is all the way forward, and the motion can get quite brutal.

 

 

Just wondering how the new design of huge (17,000 TEU and up) container ships with the accommodation forward are like, or are they so big (longer than an the Oasis class cruise ships by >100') that it doesn't matter?

 

OP is looking to sail on these ships:

 

Atlantic Star - Atlantic Sail - Atlantic Sun - Atlantic Sea - Atlantic Sky

 

which look like they have mid-ship accommodation.  ConRo ships by the looks of it.  Not a pure car carrier.

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1 minute ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

Must be a lot of work for the loading/unloading crew to lash down all the vehicles?

On the coast, where loading doesn't involve longshoremen, it is the crew. They start as soon as the first vehicle is loaded, but yes, it is a fair amount of work. Before departure, the loading officer must check all lashings.

 

Where longshoremen are involved they would normally do the securing. However, the crew must check every lashing every day. Took a load of tractors from Antwerp to Wilmington and the other cadet and I, spent all day, every day checking and tightening all the lashings.

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18 minutes ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

As I observed on the container ship I was on, only the bottom 3 tiers of above-deck containers were lashed down with steel rods.  Anything above (up to another 5) was just held down by those locking pins (or whatever the term for those devices are) at the corner to the container below. 

Sorry, can't help with this one. Never sailed on Box Boats. Other than cruise ships & Ro/Pax, I only experienced 1 tanker, couple of freezer and a couple of tramp ships.

 

Probably learned it studying cargo, but that was 40 years ago.

 

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7 hours ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

As I observed on the container ship I was on, only the bottom 3 tiers of above-deck containers were lashed down with steel rods.  Anything above (up to another 5) was just held down by those locking pins (or whatever the term for those devices are) at the corner to the container below. 

Yes, a "rod rigging" that would reach above the third tier would not be able to be handled by one or two guys and would be dangerous to manhandle at all.  The "twistlocks" are very sturdy devices.  The main idea is to use the container's weight to keep it in place, and the twistlocks and rod rigging are designed mainly to keep them from starting to move and build momentum.

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7 hours ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

Must be a lot of work for the loading/unloading crew to lash down all the vehicles?

As Heidi says, it is mostly the longshoremen who lash the vehicles, just like the containers.  I was on a pure Ro/Ro that wasn't just a car carrier, so we carried everything from cars to combine harvesters to rail locomotives, to "sea trailers" with double stacked containers, to M1 Abrams tanks.  Each type had it's own lashing arrangement.  Things larger than cars used chains (minimum 4), and cars used nylon web "ratchet straps", again 4 per vehicle.  You have two gangs of longshoremen, one driving vehicles on/off, and one lashing or unlashing as they go.  Frequently, the cargo is stowed so close together that you couldn't lash things properly if you waited until everything was onboard.

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7 hours ago, cruising cockroach said:

 

Just wondering how the new design of huge (17,000 TEU and up) container ships with the accommodation forward are like, or are they so big (longer than an the Oasis class cruise ships by >100') that it doesn't matter?

 

OP is looking to sail on these ships:

 

Atlantic Star - Atlantic Sail - Atlantic Sun - Atlantic Sea - Atlantic Sky

 

which look like they have mid-ship accommodation.  ConRo ships by the looks of it.  Not a pure car carrier.

Hah.  I looked up the Atlantic Star, and that is not a forward accommodation, that is a midships one.  And just like midsips cabins on cruise ships, that is the best place to have a cabin.  No, a forward accom is like on the pure car carriers like this, where the accom is clustered under and behind the bridge:

 

1_courageous.jpg

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2 hours ago, Julian_S said:

You got the wrong ship there, here's the ACL Atlantic Star. The boast that they have never lost a container at sea, I guess due to the way the containers are secured?atlantic-star-at-liverpool.jpg?w=630

No, the ship I showed was just to show a ship that had a "forward" accommodation, I knew it wasn't the one the OP wanted to sail on.  Cockroach asked about motion for a ship like the Atlantic Star "that had a forward accommodation".

 

Many ships have never lost a container at sea, but also with the relatively low accommodation block and midships location for it, the container stacks are a little lower (so the bridge can see over).  All containers on all ships use the same twistlock/rod rigging arrangement for container securing.

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Ah yes, I see now, sorry about that. 

This is what they say reference the container securing: ''the company also notes that the fleet continues to employ “cell?guides on deck”, a feature that ACL hopes will help continue its enviable track record of having never lost a container overboard in the last 30 years. The innovative design involves putting all ro-ro cargo midships and stowing heavier, more densely-stowed containerized cargo fore and aft, resulting in greater stability and a more efficient use of vessel space. In conventional ConRo ships, the containerized cargo is stored on deck with the lighter and less dense ro-ro cargo below deck, requiring a great deal of ballast for stability.''

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Julian_S said:

Ah yes, I see now, sorry about that. 

This is what they say reference the container securing: ''the company also notes that the fleet continues to employ “cell?guides on deck”, a feature that ACL hopes will help continue its enviable track record of having never lost a container overboard in the last 30 years. The innovative design involves putting all ro-ro cargo midships and stowing heavier, more densely-stowed containerized cargo fore and aft, resulting in greater stability and a more efficient use of vessel space. In conventional ConRo ships, the containerized cargo is stored on deck with the lighter and less dense ro-ro cargo below deck, requiring a great deal of ballast for stability.''

 

 

While older container ships didn't use cell guides on deck, most do so nowadays, so that's not something really unique.  As for their stowage design, while the use of a midships "garage" for Ro/Ro cargo is somewhat different, their statements about the configuration of Con/Ro vessels is somewhat misleading.  I've worked Con/Ro vessels where the container holds forward of the house (situated fairly far aft) were containers all the way to the inner bottom, and the Ro/Ro hold was only aft.  Others, we actually rolled the containers into the lower decks on low boy trailers that took two containers stacked up.  We even routinely took 56 M-1 Abrams tanks (at 60 tons each) in our lowest deck (this is a commercial contract on a commercial ship, not a military or government ship). 

 

Losing containers is more a reflection of the shipping companies determination to make the schedule at all costs than in differences in container securing.  I also forgot to mention that even when ships didn't have cell guides for deck stacks of containers, they used "bridge fittings" that fit into the corner castings of the containters, and bolted the top tier of each stack to the ones beside, creating a huge block of containers with a base the width of the ship, not just an individual stack that was tall and narrow.

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Thanks, interesting information.

 

There was talk earlier on about the winter Atlantic weather. Yesterday I returned from Belfast to Birkenhead on the Stena Lagen in storm force 10. The wind was South Easterly as seemed to be the swells, and for the most part we were heading straight into it. To be honest I was surprised at how level the ship remained, no rolling due to the stabilizers, (I imagine, but heading square onto the swell wouldn't have introduced much rolling tendancy?) and no pitching as the distance between peaks was short compared to the hull length. It was mostly a jolty ride with just the odd thump or two. I was happy enough although I only wanted to drink water and not eat. :-) I did notice that we were down to 17-18 knots rather than the normal 20-21 knots but couldn't decide if that was due to the wind and waves slowing us or due to throttling back a bit to take it easy.

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  • 2 months later...

I thought I would update this thread to say that I have finally re-booked an Atlantic crossing later in Feb. I've treated myself to an owners cabin. I'll post a few pictures when I return as I understand data a very expensive with satellite hook-up. Now I just have to work out how to get through the docks to the ship. I expect the security at the gate will have a telephone number or maybe Grimaldi will give me a contact phone number, we'll see, it can't be rocket science!

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Just wanted Julian to know that this cruiser has really enjoyed his thread?  And to think that some cruisers complain about the paperwork and requirements!  Although I do love the sea, not sure I would be reticent to book a commercial ship crossing in the winter. 

 

Hank

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Well, my thinking (which is often wrong) is that Halifax to Liverpool is going to be chilly anyway, even in summer, so I don't anticipate spending much time out on deck. I assume the ship's interior, and most importantly my cabin will be heated so I'll not freeze to death. I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed on the weather, but what's the worst that can happen - stuck in the bathroom throwing up every two minutes.:classic_sad: Liberty ships made it across by the thousand during the war and they are a fraction of the size.

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1 hour ago, Julian_S said:

Well, my thinking (which is often wrong) is that Halifax to Liverpool is going to be chilly anyway, even in summer, so I don't anticipate spending much time out on deck. I assume the ship's interior, and most importantly my cabin will be heated so I'll not freeze to death. I'll just have to keep my fingers crossed on the weather, but what's the worst that can happen - stuck in the bathroom throwing up every two minutes.:classic_sad: Liberty ships made it across by the thousand during the war and they are a fraction of the size.

But everyone on those Liberty Ships spend a lot of time in the bathroom or leaning over the rail :).   And there is still an operating Liberty Ship (mostly maintained by a volunteer organization) that sits in Baltimore Harbor.  Henry Kaiser would be proud.

 

Hank

 

 

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The shipping line should provide you with the agent's contact info for your port of embarkation, and should have you listed on the "gate list" as someone joining the vessel.  If the agent is not there to accompany you to the ship, you will likely have to be taken by port security to the ship.

 

I've done Atlantic crossings on Ro/Ro vessels quite a lot.  You can have fine weather all the way across, or it can be a sh** storm, but there is no danger of the ship going down, though you may very well feel that you wished it did to stop your suffering.  No one will cater to you, medical care won't be available for mere sea sickness, unless you get to the point where you are so dehydrated you can't get out of bed.

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3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

But everyone on those Liberty Ships spend a lot of time in the bathroom or leaning over the rail :).   And there is still an operating Liberty Ship (mostly maintained by a volunteer organization) that sits in Baltimore Harbor.  Henry Kaiser would be proud.

 

Hank

 

 

No, everyone on the troopships were possibly sea sick all the time, but Liberty ships were no different than any other cargo ships of the time, and mariners were well accustomed to living on relatively small ships in the worst weather possible.

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If Halifax is a crew change point for ACL, there might even be a driver.  When I planned the CMA CGM sailing from Hong Kong,  I picked a hotel relatively close to the container dock (was only planning to stay a night but the ship was late).  The agent (think it might have been a branch office of CMA CGM) sent a car to pick us up and drive us right to the ship.  Whatever they provide (or don't), the good thing is Halifax isn't that big and it isn't too long a ride to get to the docks.  I used to walk there from the university that I went to years ago (before all the security nonsense).

 

If you look at a map, you go down Young Avenue to the south end.  You could, if access is even granted and it isn't snowing, walk from the Westin (looks like it'll be within eye sight).

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I've heard a lot of seasickness can be averted by allowing one's eyes to see the horizon. It's a lack of this ability (visual obstruction by whatever means) that causes the problems.

 

The ship's officer in charge may leave a bottle of nausea medication at your disposal.

 

If there's a corridor that goes between port and starboard side of the ship, and there's a toofball or basketball available, let the ball roll and take a video.  We regretted not doing this.

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