Passenger Vessel Services Act - Missed NY Port and Embark at Orlando

[caribill]

post deleted

[arthurkma]

7 minutes ago, caribill said:

 

If a closed circuit cruise (returning to the USA embarkation port), the ship must stop at any foreign port, thus Victoria qualifies for Alaska round trips out of Seattle.

 

But if trying to sail from one USA port (Port Canaveral in this case) to another (NYC in this case), just any foreign port will not qualify. It has to be a "distant foreign port" which would mean one of the ABC Islands or any South American port. None of the foreign ports on this cruise is a "distant foreign port."

 

What I want to do here is to embark the cruise ship from Port Canaveral (Orlando) instead of from NY.  I am not trying to go to Orlando from New York.   

[arthurkma]

3 minutes ago, caribill said:

There would be problems in NYC when NCL does a check of who is on board before sailing and you are not on board after checking in.

 

No, I will not check in at New York, only my family will.  I will fly back to Los Angeles and finish my work with school then will fly to Orlando and check in on the 27th. 

[caribill]

3 minutes ago, arthurkma said:

 

What I want to do here is to embark the cruise ship from Port Canaveral (Orlando) instead of from NY.  I am not trying to go to Orlando from New York.   

 

What you are trying to do is embark at Port Canaveral and disembark in NYC. Not allowed without the ship stopping at a distant foreign port. What would be allowed is embarking at Port Canaveral and disembarking at the last foreign port on the itinerary (Cozumel) and fly home from there.

[abbydancer2003]

13 minutes ago, arthurkma said:

 

I was under the same impression before I read all of the responses from here. I was thinking that as long as I have not checked in from NY, and the cruise ship has not left the US, I am not in a violation of the law and I just need to deal with NCL I will try calling NCL again tomorrow and see if another person can give me clear and direct information. 

As Pam and others have said, it's not just a foreign port - it's a distant foreign port.  In the Vancouver example, it would be legal if it was a RT Vancouver, but if the ship went to Alaska, then it wouldn't.

 

And, no, they can't just "let you pay the fine" as mentioned above.  

 

We almost missed a ship in Miami last summer because our midday flight the day before got cancelled - and standby in summer is very difficult.  The first stop was Key West, and we would have been happy to pay if they'd let us board there.  Fortunately, we did find our way there, so we'll never know if that would be a valid reason to be able to board on day 2 of the cruise instead of day 4.

 

Do come back and let us know what Norwegian says, and good luck!

Edited November 13, 2018 by abbydancer

[paul929207]

Your itinerary does NOT include any distant foreign ports. Therefore taking a cruise from Port Canaveral to NYC would be illegal and you would NOT be allowed to board. 

 

Boarding in the Bahamas MIGHT be allowed. You would need to get approval in advance. Authorities in the Bahamas may want to clear you before you board the ship. That may mean they would have to have additional personnel at the port to check you. It could also mean they deny boarding to you.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, wolfie11 said:

Princess allows passengers who miss the ship in Vancouver to fly to Ketchikan and embark there.  Pretty sure that’s a violation of the PVSA.  On the other hand, if you have two US ports, you should be able to board at either port, since you will then be going to a foreign port before returning to the US.  My understanding is that you can’t transport passengers from a US port to a US port without a foreign port in there somewhere, which is why Alaska RTs out of Seattle stop at Victoria.

This would be a violation of PVSA, but it is the cruise line that is fined for the violation, not the passenger, and only the ticket contract gives the line the right to pass the fine to you the passenger.  In the case you give, it is Princess' decision to pay the fine and allow the passenger to board.  This is not a voluntary violation it is caused by travel delays, or some other condition outside the control of the passenger.  The OP's situation is a "voluntary" violation of the PVSA.

 

And your understanding of the PVSA is flawed.  Regardless of whether there are two US ports or not, you could not board in one port and get off in another, even with having visited a foreign port, as the PVSA states that this is only allowable if the ship visits a "distant foreign" port, and "distant" foreign ports are defined as any port not in North or Central America, the Caribbean, the Bahamas, or Bermuda.  The ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao) are considered part of South America, so they qualify as "distant" foreign ports.

 

OP, I would not depend on getting approval when you show up in PC, I would call NCL again, and escalate this to a supervisor, to get any approval in advance, but my personal experience would be that this will not be approved.  As others have said, even boarding in the Bahamas may not be allowed if you just try to show up, as again, this is a "downstream" boarding that is within your control, which is not allowed very often over the last several years.

[Coral]

4 hours ago, wolfie11 said:

Princess allows passengers who miss the ship in Vancouver to fly to Ketchikan and embark there.  Pretty sure that’s a violation of the PVSA.  On the other hand, if you have two US ports, you should be able to board at either port, since you will then be going to a foreign port before returning to the US.  My understanding is that you can’t transport passengers from a US port to a US port without a foreign port in there somewhere, which is why Alaska RTs out of Seattle stop at Victoria.

I have a friend who was NOT allowed to do this this summer. She missed her cruise.

[skynight]

7 hours ago, arthurkma said:

 

Thanks.  Here is the itinerary: (NCL Escape)
We will be departing from New York then to 
Orlando & Beaches (Port Canaveral),  Great Stirrup Cay, Bahamas, Ocho Rios, Jamaica   George Town, Grand Cayman,  Harvest Caye, Belize, Costa Maya, Mexico, Cozumel, Mexico, New York, New York.

Since you are on an NCL voyage I think you need to call NCL. This is a Princess Cruise board.

By law you are not permitted to embark at one U.S. port and disembark at a different U.S. port unless the ship stops at a distant foreign port. You voyage is not stopping at a distant foreign port of call as defined in the law. You would have to fly to one of the foreign ports, probably Jamacia since I don't think there will be air service to Great Stirrup Cay a private NCL island. While there is a fine for you and the cruise line if you do board in Port Canaveral, I don't believe the line will allow it. Again call NCL.

 

[casofilia]

Since you are on an NCL voyage I think you need to call NCL. This is a Princess Cruise board.

 

It actually is an NCL Board; from the heading:-

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Yes, but it was moved from the Princess boards earlier.

[Homosassa]

As the others have said, call NCL and receive approval from the cruiseline ahead of time.

 

We had a similar situation on a cruise leaving from Miami.  After final payment, my son-in-law found out he could not leave on embarkation day due to a work conflict.

 

With prior approval from the cruise line, he was allowed to embark in Ochos Rios, Jamaica.  The port had Jamaican immigration and custom officials at the port so he could clear Jamaican immigration and be allowed to leave the country by ship

 

When we arrived back at Miami, he did have to clear US immigration and customs with the non-US citizens (he is a US citizen) as he was no longer on a closed loop itinerary. 

[Newleno]

You need to call the cruiseline and speak with a supervisor and or ask for the email of someone of authority on the ship.  a few years back we did this, got permission to board the ship in Saint Martin instead of embarkation port of miami.  I would want confirmation through email not someone's word.

[RDC1]

11 hours ago, wolfie11 said:

Princess allows passengers who miss the ship in Vancouver to fly to Ketchikan and embark there.  Pretty sure that’s a violation of the PVSA.  On the other hand, if you have two US ports, you should be able to board at either port, since you will then be going to a foreign port before returning to the US.  My understanding is that you can’t transport passengers from a US port to a US port without a foreign port in there somewhere, which is why Alaska RTs out of Seattle stop at Victoria.

No that is not a violation of the PVSA because Vancouver is not a US port. If the ship departs and returns to Vancouver then you can board in Alaska, as long as you get off in Canada.

 

Would not work if the cruise leaves from Seattle.

[RDC1]

11 hours ago, arthurkma said:

 

No, I will not check in at New York, only my family will.  I will fly back to Los Angeles and finish my work with school then will fly to Orlando and check in on the 27th. 

Do not wait until check in day.  Contact the cruise line and keep working up the chain until you get a definitive answer, either yes or no on if you can board in either Bahamas or Florida.  Do not accept the initial response from customer service, ask to speak with a supervisor or the department that makes such decisions.

[abbydancer2003]

6 minutes ago, RDC1 said:

No that is not a violation of the PVSA because Vancouver is not a US port. If the ship departs and returns to Vancouver then you can board in Alaska, as long as you get off in Canada.

 

Would not work if the cruise leaves from Seattle.

would also not work if the ship was a one way from Vancouver to Seward or Whittier.  Only works if it's a roundtrip Vancouver.

[cml4958]

Please use the company contacts for NCL located here.  I would suggest starting with Vivian Ewert who is Vice President of Passenger Services.  If you get no response after a week then write to Andy Stuart.  For an approval like this, you're going to need to get it in writing.

 

Based on your itinerary I think the earliest you'll be able to board is Jamaica because you're going to Great Stirrup Cay which is the private island for NCL.  Unless you could get a boat to take you there from Nassau.

Edited November 13, 2018 by cml4958

[GeezerCouple]

16 hours ago, Pam in CA said:

Correct. The ship cannot knowingly allow you to violate the PVSA. It’s the same as the cruise lines allowing a passenger to violate any US law.

 

However, I would call NCL as it’s possible that they can obtain a waiver for you. This would have to be arranged for ahead of time. It’s worth a call. 

 

If you do fly to the Bahamas to board the ship, you should contact your cruise insurance company as you may be able to put in a claim for your travel expenses and/or missed days on the ship. I’d contact my insurance company to see what they will cover. 

Cruise insurance?  I doubt an insurer would cover some disruption like this that you voluntarily choose to do.

That's quite different from flights being cancelled due to weather, etc.

 

It *might* work under C/IFAR (Cancel/Interrupt For Any Reason) if you've paid extra for that type of coverage.

Whether that works for a delay at the start, vs. "interrupting" by leaving early... I've never encountered that or asked about that, yet.  Interesting question.  IF you have already purchased the C/IFAR.  You can't purchase insurance after you've already planned for whatever you want to claim.

 

GC

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, cml4958 said:

Please use the company contacts for NCL located here.  I would suggest starting with Vivian Ewert who is Vice President of Passenger Services.  If you get no response after a week then write to Andy Stuart.  For an approval like this, you're going to need to get it in writing.

 

Based on your itinerary I think the earliest you'll be able to board is Jamaica because you're going to Great Stirrup Cay which is the private island for NCL.  Unless you could get a boat to take you there from Nassau.

 Even if  the OP could get from Nassau to GSC by boat and even if NCL were to approve his boarding there it would be a very foolish idea to plan on  boarding in GSC. It's a tender port and calls on GSC are frequently cancelled due to weather conditions. If NCL were to approve late boarding it would be far safer to plan on doing it in Jamaica.

[arthurkma]

So, here is the update:
I called NCL and discussed my situation with another lady while requested to speak with a supervisor.  She told that I must call on the sailing date to obtain an approval.  There is no way they can give me any "pre-approval" on the violation of laws.  She sounds very logical.  If the cruise company gives me a "pre-approval," it means they are encouraging the customers to violate the law. She also told me they couldn't give me the "pre-approval" as they cannot predict the weather.   So, I asked her given the climate is good, how likely would I be given the clearance to go boarding in Orlando under this situation? She told me: "yes, there is a chance." She also told me she saw my conversation record from my last call-in and wish me luck for my oral defense before we ended the telephone conversation. 

So,  I would stick with my plan that I would still fly to New York with my family and take the tour in New York.  I will help my wife and my children to check in on the 25th, call the NCL and fly back to Los Angeles to have my oral defense, then fly to Orlando on the 27th and catch up with my family and enjoy my cruise as the celebration! Hopefully,   I will see you all on board. 

Thank you very much for all the enthusiastic responses and helpful assistance provided here. 

Please give me your blessing and pray for me. Wish me luck, and I will see you all on board NCL Escape on the 27th!

 

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, arthurkma said:

So, here is the update:
I called NCL and discussed my situation with another lady while requested to speak with a supervisor.  She told that I must call on the sailing date to obtain an approval.  There is no way they can give me any "pre-approval" on the violation of laws.  She sounds very logical.  If the cruise company gives me a "pre-approval," it means they are encouraging the customers to violate the law. She also told me they couldn't give me the "pre-approval" as they cannot predict the weather.   So, I asked her given the climate is good, how likely would I be given the clearance to go boarding in Orlando under this situation? She told me: "yes, there is a chance." She also told me she saw my conversation record from my last call-in and wish me luck for my oral defense before we ended the telephone conversation. 

So,  I would stick with my plan that I would still fly to New York with my family and take the tour in New York.  I will help my wife and my children to check in on the 25th, call the NCL and fly back to Los Angeles to have my oral defense, then fly to Orlando on the 27th and catch up with my family and enjoy my cruise as the celebration! Hopefully,   I will see you all on board. 

Thank you very much for all the enthusiastic responses and helpful assistance provided here. 

Please give me your blessing and pray for me. Wish me luck, and I will see you all on board NCL Escape on the 27th!

 

The woman you spoke to (was she a supervisor, or did you just request it, and continue with the person who first answered the phone?) was correct that NCL would not "pre-approve" a violation of the PVSA.  However, I believe her understanding of the PVSA and "downstream" boarding procedures is flawed.  There is no way that NCL would give approval at the port (no one at the port has that authority) to violate the PVSA for a voluntary reason, as that would be seen by CBP as the same as giving "pre-approval".

 

My feeling is that this woman knows that NCL does allow downstream boarding in certain cases, but fails to understand that in all cases this approval includes the fact that the downstream boarding port is a foreign port.  The cruise line has to submit a manifest to CBP when the ship leaves NYC, and this will show that you are not onboard.  Then, if they let you board in PC, they have to submit a revised manifest now showing you getting on in PC, and when the ship returns to NYC, CBP will note that you got on in PC, and traveled to NYC, and will automatically fine NCL, and then require clarification from NCL for the reason for the violation, so the voluntary nature of your downstream boarding will come to light.

 

I feel very strongly that if you follow your plan, you will not only not be allowed to board in PC, and miss the cruise, but will not be allowed to board at any subsequent port, and will not only miss the cruise, but be out the airfares for getting back to PC and then onward to Jamaica.  You need to contact the "resolutions" department or the "downstream boarding" department, not just a call center operator, and get a final ruling on boarding in PC, and get that in writing, or the chances of you meeting this cruise in any port will be about zero.  I've worked for the cruise lines, and I know the PVSA fairly intimately.

[StolidCruiser]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

The woman you spoke to (was she a supervisor, or did you just request it, and continue with the person who first answered the phone?) was correct that NCL would not "pre-approve" a violation of the PVSA.  However, I believe her understanding of the PVSA and "downstream" boarding procedures is flawed.  There is no way that NCL would give approval at the port (no one at the port has that authority) to violate the PVSA for a voluntary reason, as that would be seen by CBP as the same as giving "pre-approval".

 

My feeling is that this woman knows that NCL does allow downstream boarding in certain cases, but fails to understand that in all cases this approval includes the fact that the downstream boarding port is a foreign port.  The cruise line has to submit a manifest to CBP when the ship leaves NYC, and this will show that you are not onboard.  Then, if they let you board in PC, they have to submit a revised manifest now showing you getting on in PC, and when the ship returns to NYC, CBP will note that you got on in PC, and traveled to NYC, and will automatically fine NCL, and then require clarification from NCL for the reason for the violation, so the voluntary nature of your downstream boarding will come to light.

 

I feel very strongly that if you follow your plan, you will not only not be allowed to board in PC, and miss the cruise, but will not be allowed to board at any subsequent port, and will not only miss the cruise, but be out the airfares for getting back to PC and then onward to Jamaica.  You need to contact the "resolutions" department or the "downstream boarding" department, not just a call center operator, and get a final ruling on boarding in PC, and get that in writing, or the chances of you meeting this cruise in any port will be about zero.  I've worked for the cruise lines, and I know the PVSA fairly intimately.

 

Thank you for your consistent and experienced advice. I am continually impressed by your contributions to this forum to educate those without the knowledge you clearly have.

[Homosassa]

Listen to Chengkp.

 

Follow his advice and do the groundwork before the departure date.

 

You might also ask about boarding in Jamaica. The Ochos Rios port does have Jamaica Immigration and Customs at the port to allow you leave the country after arriving and clearing immigration at the airport.

[arthurkma]

Hello everyone, just a little update for my situation:

I was able to check in at Orlando, FL with the $778 fines paid to the government. Luckily, I did not check in at the Bahamas as according to Captain Nicolas,  there was no planning to port over there at all. 

Anyway, it was a great cruise and my family and I enjoyed it very much! Thank you very much for all the information concerns and many pieces of advice provided here.  I felt all the love! 

Until the next cruise, take care and I will see you all around here!

 

Arthur 

[kitkat343]

so glad everything worked out!