Mandatory Tipping ant

[douglanglois]

On 11/30/2018 at 8:19 PM, navybankerteacher said:

 

You fail to grasp the point that for the gratuities to be treated as gratuities (and therefore not taxable income) they MUST be subject to being removed. If they are built into the fare, they would not be voluntary - and therefore not gratuities —- which, by definition, are voluntary - and therefor necessarily subject to removal.

 

 

With respect I don't fail to grasp anything.

In fact, my entire point is that when gratuities are used to bring a server up to a bare minimum basic wage they cease to be gratuities. Gratuities recognize exceptional service. Wages recognize basic labor. When 'gratuities' are used to hold down wages, removing them denies servers the dignity of a basic wage for their labor.

[navybankerteacher]

47 minutes ago, douglanglois said:

With respect I don't fail to grasp anything.

In fact, my entire point is that when gratuities are used to bring a server up to a bare minimum basic wage they cease to be gratuities. Gratuities recognize exceptional service. Wages recognize basic labor. When 'gratuities' are used to hold down wages, removing them denies servers the dignity of a basic wage for their labor.

 

On the contrary, gratuities just recognize service - while exceptional gratuities recognize exceptional service. 

 

In your home state of Florida, gratuities are recognized in your minimum wage law as a part of fair income.  Florida's minimum wage is $8.25 --- however for employees engaged where tipping is customary, that minimum wage is $5.23 -- with the assumption that the employee will make at least that  $3.02 differential per hour in tips.  So, in an environment where tipping is part of the system, considering them part of total income is appropriate.  The opportunity to work for gratuities is something which the employer (be it Florida restaurant or cruise line) gives the worker in addition to the cash wages paid by the employer.

 

If you want to agitate against the practice of considering tips part of "the dignity of a basic wage for their labor",  you might start closer to home than with a foreign flagged cruise line.

[douglanglois]

10 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

On the contrary, gratuities just recognize service - while exceptional gratuities recognize exceptional service. 

 

In your home state of Florida, gratuities are recognized in your minimum wage law as a part of fair income.  Florida's minimum wage is $8.25 --- however for employees engaged where tipping is customary, that minimum wage is $5.23 -- with the assumption that the employee will make at least that  $3.02 differential per hour in tips.  So, in an environment where tipping is part of the system, considering them part of total income is appropriate.  The opportunity to work for gratuities is something which the employer (be it Florida restaurant or cruise line) gives the worker in addition to the cash wages paid by the employer.

 

 If you want to agitate against the practice of considering tips part of "the dignity of a basic wage for their labor",  you might start closer to home than with a foreign flagged cruise line.

 

I am not agitating against anything. Merely stating an opinion that a person is entitled to a fair wage for their labor which is not subject to the whim of the customer. I'm not going to petition cruise lines to change their practices. Instead, I shall control the one part of the equation that I can - my own behavior. I'll leave 'gratuities' in place no matter what, and recognize exceptional service individually. To me, personally, that is the decent thing to do. How you personally choose to react to the practice is your business, and I'll make no comment nor attempt to change it.

 

Finally, given that I do not personally set the minimum income laws in my current residence of Florida any more than I do on a foreign flagged cruise line or even my birth country of England, I'm not really sure why that comment is relevant to anything. You seem rather affronted by my opinion on this matter, and I'm unsure why.

[sparks1093]

7 minutes ago, douglanglois said:

 

I am not agitating against anything. Merely stating an opinion that a person is entitled to a fair wage for their labor which is not subject to the whim of the customer. I'm not going to petition cruise lines to change their practices. Instead, I shall control the one part of the equation that I can - my own behavior. I'll leave 'gratuities' in place no matter what, and recognize exceptional service individually. To me, personally, that is the decent thing to do. How you personally choose to react to the practice is your business, and I'll make no comment nor attempt to change it.

 

Finally, given that I do not personally set the minimum income laws in my current residence of Florida any more than I do on a foreign flagged cruise line or even my birth country of England, I'm not really sure why that comment is relevant to anything. You seem rather affronted by my opinion on this matter, and I'm unsure why.

What's a fair wage? I know a gentleman who works as a bellhop at a resort hotel here in the state who makes upwards of $50k through his tips (and of course his employer pays him the mandated minimum hourly wage for tipped employees). I know several people that work part-time at a ski resort that pull in more through their tips than they make at their full time job. The folks working for tips on cruise ships are making two to four times what they could make at home doing a similar job. Most tipped employees make out quite well with the only complaint being that their job isn't full time (well, that and the people that leave an inadequate tip).

[GUT2407]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

What's a fair wage? I know a gentleman who works as a bellhop at a resort hotel here in the state who makes upwards of $50k through his tips (and of course his employer pays him the mandated minimum hourly wage for tipped employees). I know several people that work part-time at a ski resort that pull in more through their tips than they make at their full time job. The folks working for tips on cruise ships are making two to four times what they could make at home doing a similar job. Most tipped employees make out quite well with the only complaint being that their job isn't full time (well, that and the people that leave an inadequate tip).

If they’re happy with the tipping life they should, like all of take the good with the bad, if they’re happy with high tips, low tips are part of the package.

 

you can’t just pick the good parts of a system.

[sparks1093]

4 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

If they’re happy with the tipping life they should, like all of take the good with the bad, if they’re happy with high tips, low tips are part of the package.

 

you can’t just pick the good parts of a system.

That's kind of my point, most tipped employees are happy with the way things are. Of course they'd like people to not remove tips or to make sure that they do tip. It always seems to be other people who are making the "fair wage" argument, but it's typically not their fight to make.

[Aquahound]

22 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

Or they could just pay the staff properly so they do not have to really on the tips as well, The bar staff may be fine but what of the other staff, like room stewards etc. The cost to the customer would be around the same.

 

Who are any of us to say what "proper" pay is for other people?  That's none of our d@mn business.  It's a matter between employer and employee.  No one else.  Last I checked, cruise ships weren't kidnapping people and forcing them into slave labor. 🙄

[GUT2407]

33 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

Who are any of us to say what "proper" pay is for other people?  That's none of our d@mn business.  It's a matter between employer and employee.  No one else.  Last I checked, cruise ships weren't kidnapping people and forcing them into slave labor. 🙄

So whose business is it to abuse people that choose to remove or reduce tips.

 

ohh that’s the right the same no one.

[MicCanberra]

Properly means that all parties (Fair work commission, employer and employee) are satisfied. 

[sparks1093]

Just now, MicCanberra said:

Properly means that all parties (Fair work commission, employer and employee) are satisfied. 

And the evidence is that all three of those criteria are met when it comes to cruise line employees (except substitute their union representatives in place of fair work commission).

[sparks1093]

5 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

So whose business is it to abuse people that choose to remove or reduce tips.

 

ohh that’s the right the same no one.

You are right, there is no right to abuse anyone that chooses to remove or reduce tips but I will continue to argue against the practice.

[navybankerteacher]

32 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

So whose business is it to abuse people that choose to remove or reduce tips.

 

ohh that’s the right the same no one.

 

So you feel that if you see someone abusing another person (by withholding fair compensation or otherwise) you have no business saying anything?

[GUT2407]

25 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

So you feel that if you see someone abusing another person (by withholding fair compensation or otherwise) you have no business saying anything?

 If the rules allow it and it’s what everyone agreed to, how is anyone withholding fair compensation, except maybe the one who is making the profit from someone’s labour.

[Texas Tillie]

Let's face it, some Australians are holier than thou when it comes to tipping. The way I look at it, you don't tip in Australia, you do on cruise ships (unless they are tipping included). I tip on cruise ships that have that policy, I didn't in Australia. I also didn't have very good service in Australia, but am willing to admit that could have been a coincidence.

[GUT2407]

59 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

You are right, there is no right to abuse anyone that chooses to remove or reduce tips but I will continue to argue against the practice.

Arguing against it is one thing abuse and name calling is another.

 

i hope to see you step in when that starts on some threads.

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, GUT2407 said:

So whose business is it to abuse people that choose to remove or reduce tips.

 

ohh that’s the right the same no one.

 

Show me where I did this supposed abuse and name calling of non tippers.

 

1 hour ago, MicCanberra said:

Properly means that all parties (Fair work commission, employer and employee) are satisfied. 

 

And how do you know they aren't satisfied?

Edited December 3, 2018 by Aquahound

[sloopsailor]

2 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

If they’re happy with the tipping life they should, like all of take the good with the bad, if they’re happy with high tips, low tips are part of the package.

 

you can’t just pick the good parts of a system.

 

So, are you happy if your company makes you take time off without pay, or your investments drop significantly, both to no fault of your own? Telling people "tough, it was your choice to take this job and you got smaller tips because people are stingy, so you aren't allowed to complain" is not only mean spirited, but not very humanitarian. A pretty lousy way to treat people who serve you.

[sloopsailor]

1 hour ago, GUT2407 said:

So whose business is it to abuse people that choose to remove or reduce tips.

 

ohh that’s the right the same no one.

 

People who work for tips are trying to make a better life for themselves. People who take away their tips are deliberately stiffing the crew out of selfishness.  One is working hard to try to better themselves and is counting on those tips. The other is cheating that person for their own benefit. Of course it is OK to call out one and not the other.

 

Not in anyway similar. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by sloopsailor

[RocketMan275]

6 hours ago, douglanglois said:

 

Merely stating an opinion that a person is entitled to a fair wage for their labor which is not subject to the whim of the customer. I'm not going to petition cruise lines to change their practices.

What is a 'fair wage'?  The crew is from multiple countries where the prevailing wages vary widely.  Should the 'fair wage' be based upon the country of origin? Should a bartender from Kosovo receive more than a bartender from Thailand?

The only 'fair wage' is that for which the worker is willing to trade his time.  Obviously, the crew believes their wages are 'fair'.  Otherwise there wouldn't be such competition for these jobs.

[GUT2407]

19 minutes ago, sloopsailor said:

 

So, are you happy if your company makes you take time off without pay, or your investments drop significantly, both to no fault of your own? Telling people "tough, it was your choice to take this job and you got smaller tips because people are stingy, so you aren't allowed to complain" is not only mean spirited, but not very humanitarian. A pretty lousy way to treat people who serve you.

I’ve worked for numerous companies that have had compulsory close downs for various reasons, each time I knew it was possible going in, when it happened I had to wear it.

 

i also worked in hospitality and retail, in neither case did I have any right to expect tips or letters to by boss about how great I was. I had a job to do, I did it to the best of my ability sometimes those things followed, other times they didn’t. BUT I had no expectation, and would have been offended by someone else getting upset and offensive if I didn’t get a tip or commendation. It was no one’s business but mine, the customers and my bosses.

 

just like near on 30 years ago I went to work for myself, during slow times no one comes to my rescue with a hand out, I just have to budget for it.

 

and you have no idea how much I, or anyone else, may give to charitable or humitarian causes

Edited December 3, 2018 by GUT2407

[NLH Arizona]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

That's kind of my point, most tipped employees are happy with the way things are. Of course they'd like people to not remove tips or to make sure that they do tip. It always seems to be other people who are making the "fair wage" argument, but it's typically not their fight to make.

You are so right.  I remember when Joe's Crab Shack stopped tipping (increased prices) in their stores.  The majority of the stores went back to the tipping seceniro, because that is what both their employees and customers preferred.

[GUT2407]

38 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

You are so right.  I remember when Joe's Crab Shack stopped tipping (increased prices) in their stores.  The majority of the stores went back to the tipping seceniro, because that is what both their employees and customers preferred.

In America, bet you London to a brick it’d be different in s9me other parts of the world.

[MicCanberra]

3 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

And the evidence is that all three of those criteria are met when it comes to cruise line employees (except substitute their union representatives in place of fair work commission).

Good, 

[MicCanberra]

2 hours ago, Aquahound said:

And how do you know they aren't satisfied?

I don't,  I was just explaining what my definition of properly was, due to someone (you btw) asking what I meant by properly.

[frantic36]

2 hours ago, Texas Tillie said:

Let's face it, some Australians are holier than thou when it comes to tipping. The way I look at it, you don't tip in Australia, you do on cruise ships (unless they are tipping included). I tip on cruise ships that have that policy, I didn't in Australia. I also didn't have very good service in Australia, but am willing to admit that could have been a coincidence.

 

 

Tillie, I can't really comment on the service you received as I wasn't there.

 

Generally I have received good service in both the USA and Australia. I have also had bad or indifferent service in both places. One thing I have noticed is the different approach to service. In the USA it is much more upfront and almost overly jolly, "Hi my name is..... I will be your server today", whereas in Australia I get smiles and a little chat but more reserved. To be honest I prefer the more reserved Australian approach, but that is what I am used to. 

 

Maybe the different approach to service is part of what you noticed?

 

Julie