Help! No passport, no birth certificate!

[Shmoo here]

18 minutes ago, jagsfan said:

OP, please come back and tell us what documentation Mom used for her first two Princess Cruises. And why she can’t use the same documentation. 

Oooooo!  Good question.

[CoyoteDreemurr]

I have another update! My mom just made an appointment for the passport division of our representative's office! She'll be going there on Tuesday. By the way, she got on her other cruises with her birth certificate. They were both over 20 years ago. The problem was, she couldn't find her original birth certificate, so she went to get a new one and was denied. This office might be able to get her a passport without a birth certificate, as she is a notary public and may be able to use that certificate to prove her citizenship. 

Edited February 16, 2019 by CoyoteDreemurr

[jagsfan]

Thank you for the update. 

[Julie MacCoy]

The problem was, she couldn't find her original birth certificate, so she went to get a new one and was denied.

Why didn't she ask for one that had the same spelling as the one she lost?

This office might be able to get her a passport without a birth certificate, as she is a notary public and may be able to use that certificate to prove her citizenship.

Does her state require proof that she is a USA citizen to become a notary public?  I used to be a notary public in New York,  and New York couldn't have cared less if I was a USA citizen or not.   I just had to be a New York resident, but that just meant that I had to have a New York address, which was my office address.  I was a New Jersey resident at the time.  They didn't care where i actually lived - all I needed was a New York address.  When I quit that job, I gave them a new New York address as my cousin's apartment (with my cousin's consent), and when i found a new Job, I gave them the new job's address as my New York address.  But I never had to prove that I was a USA citizen. 

[brillohead]

2 hours ago, CoyoteDreemurr said:

I have another update! My mom just made an appointment for the passport division of our representative's office! She'll be going there on Tuesday. By the way, she got on her other cruises with her birth certificate. They were both over 20 years ago. The problem was, she couldn't find her original birth certificate, so she went to get a new one and was denied. This office might be able to get her a passport without a birth certificate, as she is a notary public and may be able to use that certificate to prove her citizenship. 

This does't make any sense.  Either her birth certificate exists, or it doesn't.  The government can't refuse to give her a copy of her own birth certificate if it has a copy in its records. 

 

My grandfather's BC was lost in a county courthouse fire almost a century ago, so there was no copy to give him, but if one exists and isn't sealed by the court due to a closed adoption, it must be made available to aan authorized party upon request and payment of the standard fee for service.  

I'd be REALLY interested in why the government is refusing to give her a copy of the birth certificate they have on file.  If her name is Margaret and that's what is on her original birth certificate, but she's now known as Peggy, the government still would need to provide her with a copy of her Margaret birth certificate.

There simply must be more to this story.  

[brillohead]

55 minutes ago, Julie MacCoy said:

 

Why didn't she ask for one that had the same spelling as the one she lost?

 

Does her state require proof that she is a USA citizen to become a notary public?  I used to be a notary public in New York,  and New York couldn't have cared less if I was a USA citizen or not.   I just had to be a New York resident, but that just meant that I had to have a New York address, which was my office address.  I was a New Jersey resident at the time.  They didn't care where i actually lived - all I needed was a New York address.  When I quit that job, I gave them a new New York address as my cousin's apartment (with my cousin's consent), and when i found a new Job, I gave them the new job's address as my New York address.  But I never had to prove that I was a USA citizen. 

Ditto for me in Michigan -- I only ever showed my driver license (and that was back in the day before Enhanced Driver Licenses were even a thing).  Never had to show proof of citizenship to be a notary public.

[Shmoo here]

19 minutes ago, brillohead said:

There simply must be more to this story.  

Without a doubt.  As OP really hasn't really provided a lot of detail. 

 

 

 

 

[SimplyMarvie]

5 hours ago, CoyoteDreemurr said:

I have another update! My mom just made an appointment for the passport division of our representative's office! She'll be going there on Tuesday. By the way, she got on her other cruises with her birth certificate. They were both over 20 years ago. The problem was, she couldn't find her original birth certificate, so she went to get a new one and was denied. This office might be able to get her a passport without a birth certificate, as she is a notary public and may be able to use that certificate to prove her citizenship. 

 

I hate to tell you this, but even your Representative can't force the State Department to issue a passport without proof of citizenship. They'll send a strongly worded letter, and someone in authority at the Passport Agency will have a look at the case, but without a confirmed proof of citizenship (notary public license is unlikely to count as they're issued by states or counties, so even if the state or county asked her to establish she was a citizen, that isn't a federal government office.) they're not going to be able to do a whole lot. She really needs to focus on proving that she's a US Citizen.

[Julie MacCoy]

Here's a website that shows the requirements to become a notary public in all fifty states.

https://www.loansigningsystem.com/how-to-become-a-notary-public.html?utm_term=how to become a notary public pennsylvania&msclkid=ae5276e880be19c50f582a809a82be23&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Become Notary - SG&utm_content=Become A Notary

 

I wasn't about to check the requirements for each state, but I decided to look at two random states - Florida and Kansas. 

 

While Florida asks if you are a USA citizen, if you are not, they don't care.

Non-U.S. Citizens will need to get a recorded Application of Domicile form from the county clerk’s office.

 

Kansas doesn't even care to know what your citizenship is.  You merely have to live in Kansas or in a border state.

Any person, who is at least 18 years of age, and lives in the state of Kansas, or lives in a border state and regularly conducts business or is regularly employed in Kansas, may apply to be appointed as a Kansas notary public. Individuals who have been convicted of a felony or have had a professional license revoked do not qualify for a notary commission.

 

What state does the OP's mother live in?  What is the state in which she is a notary public?  Is her license current?  Does that state require USA citizenship in order to be a notary public?

[CoyoteDreemurr]

In our state, all you have to do to become a notary is fill out the application and send that with a copy of a driver's license or state ID. The license or ID is the proof of state citizenship. 

[brillohead]

6 minutes ago, CoyoteDreemurr said:

In our state, all you have to do to become a notary is fill out the application and send that with a copy of a driver's license or state ID. The license or ID is the proof of state citizenship. 

 

State citizenship is not the same as US citizenship.

The birth certificate is what proves she's a citizen of the USA.

[RocketMan275]

On 2/11/2019 at 4:18 PM, zqvol said:

 

Good luck, but your mom is not likely to get on a cruise ship in 5 weeks. Your best hope is going to be contacting your US representative. They have a way of working magic on things like this.

Personal story.  In the late sixties, my brother married a Canadian citizen.  They had issues with the paperwork to move to the US.  In fact, they were told not to try to enter for an indefinite time until this was fixed.  My mother used to do minor campaign stuff for our representative (Carl Albert, speaker of the house).  She called Mr. Albert's office who called my brother.  The Speaker's office gathered some information and promised to help if possible but to continue to plan on entering the US.  The State Department called the day before the flight and apologized for not having the paper ready but told them to board the aircraft without the correct paper and that they would be met at the gate in Denver.  A State Department representative presented them with the paper and escorted them through immigration.  My sister in law did not naturalize but she has had no more immigration issues.  She reports that when ever she enters the country, the agent processing her appears startled at the information on his display and becomes very polite. 

[Julie MacCoy]

In our state, all you have to do to become a notary is fill out the application and send that with a copy of a driver's license or state ID. The license or ID is the proof of state citizenship.

There is no such thing as state citizenship.  When I was a notary public in the state of New York, that certainly wasn't proof that I was a New York citizen.  I wasn't even a New York state resident.  But New York, as well as Kansas, as well as most likely several other states, allows people to become notary publics as long as they work in New York.  If I tried to get on a cruiseship saying, "I don't have a passport or a birth certificate, but I can prove that I'm a notary public in New York, so even though I don't live in New York, I'm a New York citizen!" everyone would laugh.

 

A driver's license or state ID means that you live in that state, but you can have a driver's license without being a USA citizen.  A driver's license is proof of your age and that you can drive.  It does not mean that you are a USA citizen.

 

[sanger727]

15 hours ago, CoyoteDreemurr said:

In our state, all you have to do to become a notary is fill out the application and send that with a copy of a driver's license or state ID. The license or ID is the proof of state citizenship. 

 

State citizenship is not a thing. The license proves that she is a state resident; but you can certainly be a state resident without being a US citizen. I don’t see how that would have any bearing on proving that she is a US citizen.

 

Has she ever held a job? Typically employers require proof of citizenship or immigration status when they hire you. Maybe they would have old personnel records or someone who could write a notarized letter that she did show proof of citizenship when she was hired. No idea if this would carry any weight.

 

My gut thinking is that at this point the birth certificate would be easier to get than the passport. Could potentially look into an appeal process to plea to state legislatior to have the birth certificate released. 

Edited February 18, 2019 by sanger727

[Julie MacCoy]

Typically employers require proof of citizenship or immigration status when they hire you. Maybe they would have old personnel records or someone who could write a notarized letter that she did show proof of citizenship when she was hired. 

I don't know about that, because TPTB don't seem to acknowledge "proof" that is old.  What I mean is that following is an example of a passenger who mistakenly brought her old passport with her instead of her brand new passport, and she was denied boarding, even though the old passport showed that she was a USA citizen.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/1320992-she-was-denied-boarding-had-expired-passport/?tab=comments#comment-27204627

 

When I went on a bus trip to a casino in Pennsylvania, in order to get my slotpay and a restaurant credit, I had to show proof of age.  I mistakenly showed them my recently expired driver's license.  They refused to accept it, because it had expired, even though the picture looked like me, and my birth date had not changed.  So I showed them my current license, and everything was okay.  It seemed funny to me that the expired license was not accepted, because all an expired license means is that you were allowed to drive then, but you are not allowed to drive now, unless you have a current license somewhere.  It did not expire because I ceased to be myself or my birth date had changed.

 

I wonder why none of the cruiselines say that you must have a passport or a birth certificate OR A NOTARY PUBLIC LICENSE if you are taking a closed-loop cruise.  Does the OP think that it's just an oversight on their part? 

 

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, Julie MacCoy said:

 

I don't know about that, because TPTB don't seem to acknowledge "proof" that is old.  What I mean is that following is an example of a passenger who mistakenly brought her old passport with her instead of her brand new passport, and she was denied boarding, even though the old passport showed that she was a USA citizen.

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/1320992-she-was-denied-boarding-had-expired-passport/?tab=comments#comment-27204627

 

When I went on a bus trip to a casino in Pennsylvania, in order to get my slotpay and a restaurant credit, I had to show proof of age.  I mistakenly showed them my recently expired driver's license.  They refused to accept it, because it had expired, even though the picture looked like me, and my birth date had not changed.  So I showed them my current license, and everything was okay.  It seemed funny to me that the expired license was not accepted, because all an expired license means is that you were allowed to drive then, but you are not allowed to drive now, unless you have a current license somewhere.  It did not expire because I ceased to be myself or my birth date had changed.

 

I wonder why none of the cruiselines say that you must have a passport or a birth certificate OR A NOTARY PUBLIC LICENSE if you are taking a closed-loop cruise.  Does the OP think that it's just an oversight on their part? 

 

LOL at they would not accept your expired license with a picture, but then took your new one as proof of age. It reminded me of a time I was behind someone in line at a local supermarket. They put a green dot on your loyalty card when you show them you are at least 65 and it gives you a 10% discount on Tuesdays. So the person had their card scanned and they were acknowledged as being 65 or over. They were buying beer, and the cashier asked to see their driver's license. Gee how could you not be at least 21 when you are over 65? 

[Julie MacCoy]

It reminded me of a time I was behind someone in line at a local supermarket. They put a green dot on your loyalty card when you show them you are at least 65 and it gives you a 10% discount on Tuesdays. So the person had their card scanned and they were acknowledged as being 65 or over. They were buying beer, and the cashier asked to see their driver's license. Gee how could you not be at least 21 when you are over 65? 

Does the loyalty card have a photograph?

 

I'm over 65, and I get a 10% reduction in my water and sewer bills.  When I turned 65, I had to tell them so.  The following year, I had to tell them again that I was at least 65.  And the year after that, and the year after that.  I guess I'll have to tell them every year, "Yes, I'm still over 65!"

 

All the more reason that proof of being eligible to work in the USA from many years ago might not be deemed acceptable.  I don't remember when that started, but it I know that it was after March of 1986, because that's when I started a job and such proof was not asked for, and before August of 1990, because that's when I started a new job and had to show proof.  But I do remember that when that new rule was announced, it was said that if you were currently working, you did not have to come up with proof.  So, if I had never quit the job I started in March of 1986, I never would have had to prove that I was eligible to work in the USA.  So maybe the OP's mother never had to show proof. 

 

But, again, I am surprised that the OP thinks that a notary public license is sufficient for boarding a cruise.

[pacruise804]

On 2/18/2019 at 11:53 AM, ontheweb said:

LOL at they would not accept your expired license with a picture, but then took your new one as proof of age. It reminded me of a time I was behind someone in line at a local supermarket. They put a green dot on your loyalty card when you show them you are at least 65 and it gives you a 10% discount on Tuesdays. So the person had their card scanned and they were acknowledged as being 65 or over. They were buying beer, and the cashier asked to see their driver's license. Gee how could you not be at least 21 when you are over 65? 

 

In PA some of our grocery stores started selling wine and beer (was not always the case).  If I purchase at a grocery store they need to scan my license to complete the sale, not sure if it is the same at your store.  When I was in our state run Wine and Spirit shop they didn't even ask to see my license, so the merchant rules probably vary.

[ldubs]

On 2/18/2019 at 3:52 AM, sanger727 said:

 

Typically employers require proof of citizenship or immigration status when they hire you. 

 

 

My company stopped asking for proof many years ago.  Instead, the employment application was changed to read something like "can you legally work in the US".  Can't tell you exactly why the change was made other than it was from our law dept.  

 

What does this have to do with the OP's question?  Well, nothing.  You just jogged my memory is all.   

[Julie MacCoy]

What does this have to do with the OP's question?  Well, nothing. 

   

 

It's because sanger727 posted the following:

 

Has she ever held a job? Typically employers require proof of citizenship or immigration status when they hire you. Maybe they would have old personnel records or someone who could write a notarized letter that she did show proof of citizenship when she was hired. No idea if this would carry any weight.

 

I attempted to show that "old" proof of age was not always accepted, and ontheweb indicated that proof of age that one was a senior citizen was not sufficient to prove that he/she was at least 21 years old.  Therefore, I am not sure that sanger727's suggestion to dig up "old" proof of citizenship would work.  Even sanger727 isn't sure "if this would carry any weight."

 

 

[SRF]

On 2/18/2019 at 11:53 AM, ontheweb said:

So the person had their card scanned and they were acknowledged as being 65 or over. They were buying beer, and the cashier asked to see their driver's license. Gee how could you not be at least 21 when you are over 65? 

 

Because they make rules for the lowest level person that might have to apply them.

 

Many places have rules that they card EVERYONE.  Also, some rules (possibly local laws) require them to see a DL or other legal document to determine age for alcohol sales.

[ontheweb]

43 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

Because they make rules for the lowest level person that might have to apply them.

 

Many places have rules that they card EVERYONE.  Also, some rules (possibly local laws) require them to see a DL or other legal document to determine age for alcohol sales.

No, I've seen local places where they have a sign that they card anyone who looks under 40. I don't remember the last time I was carded. (I'm well over 21, and in fact well over 40.)

[dreadpirate3]

OP, any updates?

[Jemcdonough85]

On 2/15/2019 at 10:36 PM, Julie MacCoy said:

 

Why didn't she ask for one that had the same spelling as the one she lost?

 

Does her state require proof that she is a USA citizen to become a notary public?  I used to be a notary public in New York,  and New York couldn't have cared less if I was a USA citizen or not.   I just had to be a New York resident, but that just meant that I had to have a New York address, which was my office address.  I was a New Jersey resident at the time.  They didn't care where i actually lived - all I needed was a New York address.  When I quit that job, I gave them a new New York address as my cousin's apartment (with my cousin's consent), and when i found a new Job, I gave them the new job's address as my New York address.  But I never had to prove that I was a USA citizen. 

 

Same for me in Pennsylvania. Just need to work or live in the state. 

[Shmoo here]

1 hour ago, dreadpirate3 said:

OP, any updates?

OP hasn't been around for a couple of days.  I'm not sure we're ever going to get the straight story from him/her (regarding why it's the "wrong" birth certificate, why they wouldn't give her a birth certificate, what was wrong about the name, what the story was they told the federal officials).

 

Would be nice to be updated on what happens.