News -HA may be banned from accessing US ports

[sjh919]

Wow. Hate to hear this damage is happening.

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

I have a feeling that 2nd engineer is looking for a new employer! Stupid is as stupid does!

 

2 hours ago, canadianbear said:

Yup!

While the one instance of failure of shipboard personnel to perform an environmental task properly is serious, what is far more disturbing to me is the total lack of consideration or responsibility at the corporate level towards environmental issues.  Because the violations range across the whole spectrum of pollution (oil, gray water, ballast, plastic), this shows that there is no environmental culture in Carnival lines (sorry John).  As I've said on the thread in the Carnival forum, I have worked for two companies that were placed on probation by the DOJ for pollution violations (NCL and a tanker company), and both have turned their culture around to being held as models of environmental guardianship, and the tanker company's environmental compliance plan instituted as a part of the plea deal and probation is now held up by the DOJ as the model that all subsequent violators must follow.  This continued disregard for the environment across the Carnival lines is totally despicable.

Edited April 12, 2019 by chengkp75

[canadianbear]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

 

While the one instance of failure of shipboard personnel to perform an environmental task properly is serious, what is far more disturbing to me is the total lack of consideration or responsibility at the corporate level towards environmental issues.  Because the violations range across the whole spectrum of pollution (oil, gray water, ballast, plastic), this shows that there is no environmental culture in Carnival lines (sorry John).  As I've said on the thread in the Carnival forum, I have worked for two companies that were placed on probation by the DOJ for pollution violations (NCL and a tanker company), and both have turned their culture around to being held as models of environmental guardianship, and the tanker company's environmental compliance plan instituted as a part of the plea deal and probation is now held up by the DOJ as the model that all subsequent violators must follow.  This continued disregard for the environment across the Carnival lines is totally despicable.

It seems to have fooled most into believing HAL was being environmentally responsible especially being on probation.  Very disappointing.  

[Italy52]

1 hour ago, PRPLE said:

Seriously watching this as it might affect our Alaska cruise this year.... 

 

you would think the judge would look at the overall economic impact on the states and the ports... 

 

one thing saying about banning from US ports is that it makes headlines and grabs everyone’s attention 

 

following and hoping ....

 

We are watching this as well.  We sail HAL on June 15th for one week and then Princess for the following two weeks -- all Alaska cruises. 

 

[Sir PMP]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

The moderators may choose to delete this post, but this is my opinion.

 

A certain National CEO "threatens":  "I'm going to close the Border."  Days later:  "I'm going to give Mexico another year."  Politically, have we not seen this before in the past two years?

 

Now, a Federal Judge is issuing what I read as a "threat" just as the "big man" in a certain house in the District of Columbia routinely does.  

 

Do I approve of pollution of pristine waters?  Of course not!  Has the situation improved from what I first witnessed as a guest on Rotterdam V sailing from New York in 1970?  Yes!  I witnessed crew members bringing bags of trash to the stern of that ship and throwing them overboard into the Atlantic Ocean.  Is there need for more corrective action on the part of all cruise lines to protect our Oceans?  Probably so.  

 

Humans make mistakes in their daily discharge of their duties.  Mechanical systems can fail.  

 

I have met several Environmental Officers during Behind the Scenes Tours on the ships of Holland America Line and Carnival Cruises.  Their "heart" is in their work.  

 

I do consider the issue is important.  I don't consider the potential "threat" of the Judge against Carnival Corporation et al that some are rightly concerned to be of any "threat" to the continued operation of the vessels of Carnival Corporation to and within Alaskan waters.

 

 

I don't understand what your comment about a certain national CEO has to do with this, what happened here is a total disregard for the environment, Carnival corp is run by knuckleheads like, Donald(Monsanto, .Roundup!), Orlando (Coca Cola) who have no clue about nautical laws, respect for oceans, all they look at is profits at all costs.

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, Italy52 said:

 

We are watching this as well.  We sail HAL on June 15th for one week and then Princess for the following two weeks -- all Alaska cruises. 

 

 

This is not looking at the real picture. The next hearing is in June...the soonest the judge could issue a ruling, and it is unlikely a ruling will take effect immediately, as ships are at sea can't just dock anywhere any time, particularly if they are banned from docking at US ports. If the judge were to make good on the threats, undoubtedly there would be an appeal, emergency appeals, if not many, and the decision would be, at worst case, phased in. Do you really think the judge would strand few tens of thousand people (across all the Carnival Corp cruises in Alaska)instantly on a random day in June, at sea in Alaska, because their only legal destination could be Victoria or Vancouver?  

[Italy52]

5 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

 

This is not looking at the real picture. The next hearing is in June...the soonest the judge could issue a ruling, and it is unlikely a ruling will take effect immediately, as ships are at sea can't just dock anywhere any time, particularly if they are banned from docking at US ports. If the judge were to make good on the threats, undoubtedly there would be an appeal, emergency appeals, if not many, and the decision would be, at worst case, phased in. Do you really think the judge would strand few tens of thousand people (across all the Carnival Corp cruises in Alaska)instantly on a random day in June, at sea in Alaska, because their only legal destination could be Victoria or Vancouver?  

Just making a statement -- not really interested in your opinion.

 

[CruiserBruce]

Just now, Italy52 said:

Just making a statement -- not really interested in your opinion.

 

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant...

[sansterre]

Reflecting now on a glorious day spent onboard the Westerdam October 3, 2018 in Glacier Bay.  

Park officials talked about the environmental protections for the area and I thought we were being 

good visitors, following all the rules.  Hmmmmm.

[terrydtx]

I am very disappointed to read that CCL has so blatantly defied not only the agreed upon probation but continues to find loopholes issued from the top to the probation. If this judge was to go so far as ban CCL from all US ports the economic consequences would devastate hundreds of thousands of lives who depend upon the cruise industry for their livelihoods.   It would most likely bankrupt CCL and we would see their brands sold off to other cruise conglomerates which may or may not be such a bad thing.

 

If the judge finds that the probation violations were in fact known or condoned  by the CCL Board and CEO, I would prefer that those responsible face real jail time over the US Port ban. This would send a much clearer message without devastating the lives of the workers and employees associated with the CCL ports that had nothing to do with the violations.

[ski ww]

I think if the judge throws a couple of the CEO's and some of the people at the top in jail that would get every one's attention.

[sammiedawg]

37 minutes ago, ski ww said:

I think if the judge throws a couple of the CEO's and some of the people at the top in jail that would get every one's attention.

 

Totally agree plus massive fines and revocation of future Glacier Bay permits.   I doubt any docking penalties will be imposed this season.  

I am not a stockholder. Totally disgusted with Carnival corporation.  They grandfathered lots of docking and sailing permits but they have disrespected our  pristine 49th state. 

[SargassoPirate]

So much for Save The Waves.  I'm gonna stop reusing my towel and dump it on the floor.

 

Sheesh.

[terrydtx]

58 minutes ago, ski ww said:

I think if the judge throws a couple of the CEO's and some of the people at the top in jail that would get every one's attention.

I would start with the Princess CEO as their brand seems to be the biggest abuser both pre and during the probation.

[Wayfairers]

Since they violated probation the judge needs to do something...I will be surprised if they are banned from the US though.  Fines?  Arresting whoever on staff approved violating probation?   Withdrawing CCL permits for protected areas for a certain number of years?   Somehow the responsible individuals need to be held responsible plus the corporation  needs to suffer financially in my opinion. 

 

I’m surprised Antarctica let us sail their waters on the Prinsendam Grand South America this year and very surprised South Georgia let us land with this history. 

[katrina915]

Wow.  I don't see why these lines were granted access to Glacier Bay for the next 10 years.  I don't see the economic impact if the permits to Glacier Bay are given to other lines. Other cruise lines will take them.  To Florida, yes.  Alaska, no. 

[3rdGenCunarder]

19 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Couple issues with this post. First, Carnival's permit is definitely not exclusive. Other cruise lines get to go into Glacier Bay, and more can in accordance with the thread mentioned below.

Second, per this thread:

 

 The permit allocations for the next 10 years have been made...after some of the issues mentioned in this legal action occurred. Not sure they could be pulled so abruptly as you suggest...as schedules are already out for 2020.

 

Schedules can be changed. I think pulling CCL's permits for Glacier bay would be appropriate, considering that's where Westerdam's incident took place. There's an aspect of public shaming to that punishment that might make Mickey and Co sit up and take notice. Schedule changes can't be swept under the rug.

 

I'm not saying that's the only punishment needed, but it should be part of what's done. 

 

[myjillian]

14 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

The moderators may choose to delete this post, but this is my opinion.

 

A certain National CEO "threatens":  "I'm going to close the Border."  Days later:  "I'm going to give Mexico another year."  Politically, have we not seen this before in the past two years?

 

Now, a Federal Judge is issuing what I read as a "threat" just as the "big man" in a certain house in the District of Columbia routinely does.  

 

Do I approve of pollution of pristine waters?  Of course not!  Has the situation improved from what I first witnessed as a guest on Rotterdam V sailing from New York in 1970?  Yes!  I witnessed crew members bringing bags of trash to the stern of that ship and throwing them overboard into the Atlantic Ocean.  Is there need for more corrective action on the part of all cruise lines to protect our Oceans?  Probably so.  

 

Humans make mistakes in their daily discharge of their duties.  Mechanical systems can fail.  

 

I have met several Environmental Officers during Behind the Scenes Tours on the ships of Holland America Line and Carnival Cruises.  Their "heart" is in their work.  

 

I do consider the issue is important.  I don't consider the potential "threat" of the Judge against Carnival Corporation et al that some are rightly concerned to be of any "threat" to the continued operation of the vessels of Carnival Corporation to and within Alaskan waters.

 

 

I too can remember looking out of the back of the ships, early in the morning, and watching the train of garbage floating behind the ship....remember this was during the time that you could drive down the highway and see people throw trash and garbage out of their car windows and not think anything of it....empty ashtrays into parking lots while you fill up the car with gas....those were times that people seem to have forgotten...thank god for Lady Bird Johnson😋

[HappyInVan]

This is very bad. Carnival is acting as a bad citizen. Repeatedly and criminally. The senior executives aren't taking responsibility. 

 

No, this is not a 'leftist' judge. This is a criminal organization.

 

I can't do anything about the cruise of April 24th. But, I'll probably cancel my cruise in October.

 

Unbeliievable.

[SilvertoGold]

In Glacier Bay:  is this bad timing, bad planning?  At sea in the middle of the night would make more sense for dumping anything, legal or not.  

 

We have cruised a lot and have seen and smelled the who-knows-what from several HAL ships many times while walking the decks during the day.  Assumed this was always legally allowed substance.

[Sir PMP]

1 hour ago, terrydtx said:

I would start with the Princess CEO as their brand seems to be the biggest abuser both pre and during the probation.

That would be Stein Kruse, a good start..

[frankc98376]

I'm guessing there will be a fine for each incident and that is it.  The economic damage if all of CCL's ships were prevented docking in any US port could be devastating to both ports and local business in the ports.  CCL ships are a huge part of Alaska's summer revenue.  We have at least two HAL ships, one CCL ship, two Princess ships and the occasional Seabourn ship in Seattle every week in the summer. The possibility of several major lines folding from income loss would be real. Would be welcome to Celebrity and NCL- 7 night cruises starting at $2000 pp for inside cabins

 

 

[Copper10-8]

3 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

That would be Stein Kruse, a good start..

 

This is what pees me off the most on this scam! As crew, we were all (mandatory - electronic roll taken) shown a video in early 2017 about the August 2013 Caribbean Princess pollution incident (illegal modification of the vessel's on-board pollution control systems) incl, photos of that contraption. The video started off with speeches by Stein Kruse, Keith Taylor (former USCG) and the lead attorney of the company about what an incredible stupid move this was by the Caribbean Princess engineering staff, the explanation of the five year probation incl. surprise audits, and the fact that this incident and the subsequent five-year probation period was to be taken extremely serious.

 

Less than two years later, some rocket scientist within the Westerdam engineering staff falsifies maintenance records involving the oil content monitoring system in September 2018

 

How frickin' stupid can one be?  

[chengkp75]

47 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

This is what pees me off the most on this scam! As crew, we were all (mandatory - electronic roll taken) shown a video in early 2017 about the August 2013 Caribbean Princess pollution incident (illegal modification of the vessel's on-board pollution control systems) incl, photos of that contraption. The video started off with speeches by Stein Kruse, Keith Taylor (former USCG) and the lead attorney of the company about what an incredible stupid move this was by the Caribbean Princess engineering staff, the explanation of the five year probation incl. surprise audits, and the fact that this incident and the subsequent five-year probation period was to be taken extremely serious.

 

Less than two years later, some rocket scientist within the Westerdam engineering staff falsifies maintenance records involving the oil content monitoring system in September 2018

 

How frickin' stupid can one be?  

Quite true, John, but this goes way beyond just one oil record book infraction.  This appears over several lines and several ships, and just points to a corporate culture of either "we don't want to know" or " we want the crew to make the issue disappear".  It really is sad.  If it had been one incident of oil record book falsification, it would have resulted in that person losing their job and likely the Chief as well, but that would have been it.  It is obvious to me, having worked under a court appointed auditor, that he feels he was consistently lied to or obfuscated from doing his job (blowing smoke up his ***) and that no one, either shipboard or shoreside felt the need to following non-conformity reporting.

[JeffElizabeth]

21 hours ago, PRPLE said:

Seriously watching this as it might affect our Alaska cruise this year.... 

 

you would think the judge would look at the overall economic impact on the states and the ports... 

 

one thing saying about banning from US ports is that it makes headlines and grabs everyone’s attention 

 

following and hoping ....

 

20 hours ago, VennDiagram said:

 

You may be right.

 

This would hurt the Alaskan economy for sure, and Florida, possibly New England and Canada too.