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Elevator usage by ADA persons


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8 hours ago, Mr. Candyman said:

Not if they used your seapass like key card which only allows its usage at specific times.   Would just be like any other passkey that gets you to certain restricted floors in an office building

How would this even work?  Each person with a disability would have to swipe a card to get onto a special elevator?  What's to prevent anyone from just walking onto that same elevator without a card?

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People abuse handicapped parking spots all the time. I get angry because people who really need those spots can’t get them. Also abused is getting on rides at Disneyworld with saying you are handicapped. I say no to handicapped elevators on cruise ships because 100% the privilege will be abused. 

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As a fellow wheelchair user, I understand this elevator frustration all too well.  I can't tell you how many times we have tried to take the elevators to go to dinner or honestly ANYWHERE and waited while each car came jam packed with people.  Chairs take up room so people who could walk (and didn't have walkers, etc) could push on but anyone with any additional equipment like a chair, walker, crutches, scooter, etc. simply couldn't ever get on.  I learned to go up when I really wanted to go down because as long as I was on the elevator at some point I would get to my destination. 

 

It really is frustrating.  Many times I wouldn't go to the room to get something because I knew how long it would take me with the elevators.  My husband (able bodied) would often just climb the stairs and get whatever I was wanting to get because sometimes it seemed like half my day was spent waiting at the elevator. 

 

And then there's the kids who ride the elevators up and down like they are a carnival ride and don't give room for disabled people to board the elevators. 

 

It's definitely incredibly frustrating.

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19 hours ago, Cyn874 said:

I'm a little confused. I just got off a 15 day cruise and from what I witnessed, all the people who were using scooters and wheelchairs had the same access and wait times as anyone else. It was first come/first serve, and people got on when it was their turn. In 15 days I never saw people in walkers or wheelchairs being denied boarding or being forced to wait longer. If anything, I usually saw them get on first and the people who were not using any sort of assistance would get on last. I myself got off of elevators to allow people in a scooter or wheelchair to take my place when it was crowded, and I saw others doing the same. I never witnessed anyone on a wheelchair or scooter having to wait additional time.

When hubby and I were on the Harmony last year I lost count of the times I waited to be able to get on an elevator, I would be in the aisle I would see the green light so would go towards it only to be rushed by others to get on ahead of me. I got so frustrated one night I was in tears as I had been waiting for 20 mins going back and forth trying to get on an elevator. I tried just waiting in front of 1 and same thing people just pushed straight past until there was no room. Unless you have a disability like I and others have, you have no idea what it is like and how humiliating and frustrating it is, not to be normal like you once used to be. I would love to see a dedicated elevator in busy times just for people with, walkers, scooters, wheelchairs or canes. Would it kill non disabled to go without 1 elevator for a bit.

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1 minute ago, charmy98 said:

When hubby and I were on the Harmony last year I lost count of the times I waited to be able to get on an elevator, I would be in the aisle I would see the green light so would go towards it only to be rushed by others to get on ahead of me. I got so frustrated one night I was in tears as I had been waiting for 20 mins going back and forth trying to get on an elevator. I tried just waiting in front of 1 and same thing people just pushed straight past until there was no room. Unless you have a disability like I and others have, you have no idea what it is like and how humiliating and frustrating it is, not to be normal like you once used to be. I would love to see a dedicated elevator in busy times just for people with, walkers, scooters, wheelchairs or canes. Would it kill non disabled to go without 1 elevator for a bit.

Charmy98 - I completely understand this.  I have been brought to tears at the elevators myself.

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8 minutes ago, ChollaChick said:

Charmy98 - I completely understand this.  I have been brought to tears at the elevators myself.

I ended up like you, if I could get on an elevator I would go up and stay on it so I could go down, but even that was a challenge. We are due to go on the Symphony in Feb 2020 I am dreading the feeding time at the zoo.

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14 minutes ago, charmy98 said:

When hubby and I were on the Harmony last year I lost count of the times I waited to be able to get on an elevator, I would be in the aisle I would see the green light so would go towards it only to be rushed by others to get on ahead of me. I got so frustrated one night I was in tears as I had been waiting for 20 mins going back and forth trying to get on an elevator. 

Just curious- what time of year was this?  In over 10 cruises, I have not seen this behavior, but maybe it’s the time of year I booked?  I want to make sure to avoid “rude person” season...

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2 minutes ago, vacationlover_mn said:

Just curious- what time of year was this?  In over 10 cruises, I have not seen this behavior, but maybe it’s the time of year I booked?  I want to make sure to avoid “rude person” season...

 

It was November, before that we went on the Majesty with my Son and family and there was nothing like what I went through on the Harmony.

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There are really multiple problems at work here, so possibly a single solution is not viable.

  • At busy times there may not be room in a car for those using assistive devices, so they have to wait for another, hopefully less full car to stop.
  • Fewer people keep track of those who started waiting before them and simply presume that it is first at the door, first on the car. (Often before letting anyone off. :classic_sad:)
  • Some scooter users have little patience, (or have been waiting for some time), and are willing to barge into a car.
  • Conversely, car occupants often will not make room for someone using an assistive device.

In an ideal world people would keep track of those ahead in the waiting sequence; people would try to make room for those using assistive devices; everyone would be a little more patient.

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6 hours ago, mets123 said:

My wife had a stroke four years ago, and has been using a scooter since then when we go on a cruise. Does she have one at home, no. But on a cruise, it is Nice to have. I push her in a wheelchair at home, but the size of today's ships make it almost impossible. We did use a wheelchair for the first two post stroke cruises, but at the end of the day, I was physically and emotionally exhausted. It was no vacation for me. The scooter makes it more enjoyable and gives me a break.

 

using elevators, we rely on the kindness of others. We don't expect special treatment because we realized others paid for their vacation s just as we have. We appreciate it when others have allowed us to go in before them, even if they were there first, and they now have to wait for another elevator.

 

what we do not appreciate is the ignorant people who try to sneak around us while my wife tries to get it. Or those who just push their way in. Or better yet, those who close the door when they see us coming, and there are only two people inside.

 

don't flame me. It happens more than once on every cruise.

 

Bless those that help us. Pray for the others that they are never in my wife's situation. Payback is a b...... Just my two cents.

talk about ignorant people. We were on the elevator, DW on her scooter. It was our time to get off but the person behind her would not move out of the way. After a couple of " excuse me's" and the person still would not move our DS reached over to the scooter and hit the reverse button. The person moved then. We had a good laugh over that.

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My idea has sparked a lot of conversations. A couple of things may respond to many of you and I confess that I find it challenging to return to each response, and that cannot be fixed in time to continue this opportunity for discussion.

Walking stairs for the general population is a choice, you can choose to walk, or you can choose to use the elevator. When you take the elevator, you are exercising a choice. I cannot make that choice. To use the elevator when you see people who cannot make the same choice is what I am referring to as the reason for the dedicated or supervised elevator. If waiting for an elevator is fair for me, it should be for you too. That means that you can and will continue to use an elevator, just not all of them.

That IS fair, and nothing more than a service request. I suggest that this only happen at peak times, so we are not thrown into the general population of thousands where we cannot compete for needed space and transport.

 

There are kind people everywhere and our cruise community is truly generous and helpful. My point is that they are on vacation too, and they should not be responsible for my transport. The kindness of strangers is wonderful, but not always reliable and not always present. 

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51 minutes ago, 6theagle said:

My idea has sparked a lot of conversations. A couple of things may respond to many of you and I confess that I find it challenging to return to each response, and that cannot be fixed in time to continue this opportunity for discussion.

Walking stairs for the general population is a choice, you can choose to walk, or you can choose to use the elevator. When you take the elevator, you are exercising a choice. I cannot make that choice. To use the elevator when you see people who cannot make the same choice is what I am referring to as the reason for the dedicated or supervised elevator. If waiting for an elevator is fair for me, it should be for you too. That means that you can and will continue to use an elevator, just not all of them.

That IS fair, and nothing more than a service request. I suggest that this only happen at peak times, so we are not thrown into the general population of thousands where we cannot compete for needed space and transport.

 

There are kind people everywhere and our cruise community is truly generous and helpful. My point is that they are on vacation too, and they should not be responsible for my transport. The kindness of strangers is wonderful, but not always reliable and not always present. 

What does RC or other cruise lines you cruise with think of your idea/thoughts?

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Elevators are there for everyone. Anyone can ride them up or down, for any number of decks, any time they want to wait for one. Everyone should be courteous of those who arrived at the elevator before them.

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I love reading every thread where someone brings up a problem they perceive, and about 2/3 of the replies state that the problem doesn't exist because those posters have not experienced it.

 

Posters complained of odors on the Celebrity Edge, and were flamed because responders had not smelled them.

 

Someone will post a complaint about poor customer service, and they are rudely criticized as too sensitive because no one has been rude to the criticizers.

 

And here, disabled people discussing how they have had to wait for long periods at elevators (because of people cutting in front of them) are being told by responders that those responders have never seen it, ergo, no problem and get over it.

 

Simple point of logic: Anecdotes about NOT seeing a problem do not constitute any evidence that the problem does not exist. 

 

The OP's original solution might be unworkable but it is an issue worth thinking about and trying to find a compromise solution rather than attacking the OP for at least trying.  

 

If the problem is lack of line ettiquette, maybe the ship could station someone near the elevators near venues like the theater that have large masses of people trying to leave at once. The crewperson could note if disabled cruisers are being disadvantaged and help clear a path when necessary.

 

It seems like a valid use of resources, and would help everyone by reducing confrontation between passengers. Even the mere presence of staff could encourage better behavior and cooperation.

 

Think of merge lanes on highways: police cars stationed along the way have been shown to facilitate smoother merges and reduce clogging at the last minute caused by the cars that try to rush past the already merged cars.

 

Or maybe just a few beefy enforcers at the vators. I have noticed large semis occasionally "police" merge lane ettiquette successfully, too.

Edited by mayleeman
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I must admit that guests with mobility issues on cruises worry me. Not because they get in the way, or anything negative, but my real concern is what happens in the (admittedly unlikely) event of a true emergency. 

 

The rush for an elevator at busy times would be nothing compared to the scramble if everyone had to get to their muster stations in an emergency.  We all like to think that cruise ships are 100% safe - but remember the Costa Concordia?

 

On the last cruise l helped one older lady in and out of lifts and through doorways on several occasions, and l was worried about how she would manage if the 7 short 1 long blasts came.

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56 minutes ago, Sancho_proudfoot said:

I must admit that guests with mobility issues on cruises worry me. Not because they get in the way, or anything negative, but my real concern is what happens in the (admittedly unlikely) event of a true emergency. 

 

The rush for an elevator at busy times would be nothing compared to the scramble if everyone had to get to their muster stations in an emergency.  We all like to think that cruise ships are 100% safe - but remember the Costa Concordia?

 

On the last cruise l helped one older lady in and out of lifts and through doorways on several occasions, and l was worried about how she would manage if the 7 short 1 long blasts came.

 

Firstly in an emergency situation you are not suppose to use the lifts.

Secondly cruise staff know which guests will need help to get to the muster stations. Guests with mobility issues can also register for extra help at Guest Services.

My son is confined to a wheelchair and on multiple occasions, normally during the muster drill, we have been told in an emergency to stay where we are as the staff will take my son to his muster station.   

 

So please don't worry.

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I think a 'Washy Washy' style video could be the answer.

 

The video should encourage people to hold the 'lift doors open' button for people with mobility issues. 

Suggest that if the wheelchair/scooter user is allowed to enter the lift first, and the wheelchair/scooter parks in the centre of the lift, other people can then get in to fill the remaining space. 

It would also be nice if the video suggests that if you are already in the lift and a wheelchair/scooter user wants to get in just move to one side so that the wheelchair/scooter can park in the centre of the lift which makes getting in and out of the lift easier for everyone.

 

The video could be shown on embarkation day like the 'Washy Washy' video.

Yes I know people will ignore the video like some people ignore the 'Washy Washy' video but at least it a start.

 

I have been on 12 cruises with my wheelchair confined son. On some cruises we have had problems with the lifts and on others no problems at all. That is why I think an educational video is a possible solution.

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7 hours ago, mayleeman said:

If the problem is lack of line ettiquette, maybe the ship could station someone near the elevators near venues like the theater that have large masses of people trying to leave at once. The crewperson could note if disabled cruisers are being disadvantaged and help clear a path when necessary.

What most people don't realize with ship's crew, is that the total hours of labor for the entire crew, from dishwasher to Captain, is a finite quantity, defined by law.  This is not a mall where you can hire someone additional to do the new duties of elevator monitor, nor can you ask someone to work a few hours a week extra to earn some more overtime.  Maritime law determines the total number of hours that crew can work in any 24 hours, and in any 7 day period, and if this is exceeded, both the company and the crew member can be fined.  The well commented on "crew reductions" that I see here on CC are not crew reductions, they are changes to services that have been required to meet the new limits on hours that crew can work.  Gone are the days when the company could say, "here's the amount of work your position needs to do, and here's the amount of pay we will give you to do it, and how long it takes you to do it is your problem".

 

Again, I ask how this problem is dealt with on land, in buildings where the stairs are primarily for emergencies, so the load falls 100% on the elevators.  Do they have dedicated disabled elevators or elevator monitors?

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Any time you have thousands of people moving about in a confined place, you are going to have these issues. Even with a dedicated elevator, can you picture the clash and maneuvering of a mob of wheelchairs and scooters heading for this one elevator at peak times? It’s nice to imagine an orderly entry process into the elevator itself, but is that realistic?

 

Space would still dictate that patience and wait times are inevitable. And, sadly, it’s a reality of our culture that impatient and/or rude people exist among the disabled as well.  

 

A cruise ship vacation (especially on the mega ships) confines thousands of people in a finite space with a limited number of elevators up and down. That’s just a fact of life of cruising. To me, it’s like vacationing in Positano, Italy...if the walking up and down the hills irritates or exhausts you, choose Bermuda. Assess the personal downsides of any vacation before you go.  But don’t expect Italy to erect people-movers to accommodate every issue...as nice as it would be if they did.

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14 hours ago, ChollaChick said:

  I learned to go up when I really wanted to go down because as long as I was on the elevator at some point I would get to my destination. 

 

Now that's called smart thinking....

 

Not sure what things are like on US cruises, but after a cruise on Voyager out of Singapore, we never saw any of the claimed rudeness, and we were travelling with a friend in a wheelchair (sometimes motorised, sometimes not). You will always get the occasional rude person who is in to much of a hurry to wait, but as a general rule, people gave her priority when getting in an elevator.

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10 hours ago, Mikew0805 said:

Elevators are there for everyone. Anyone can ride them up or down, for any number of decks, any time they want to wait for one. Everyone should be courteous of those who arrived at the elevator before them.

Exactly !!! It´s my choice and I´m not going to excuse for riding the Elevator for one Floor down even though I might have been able to take the stairs. 

If People in wheelchairs are there before me, they of Course get to go first if an Elevator arrives with room for them. If I´m there first I have no Problem going before them. We all have to wait our turn and I see no reason to let them go ahead. Sorry, many will not agee but it´s like how I feel, they don´t want to be discriminated, so wait like everyone else.

OTOH I will rush to an Elevator  - it might seem I want to go ahead of them - to hold the door and let them in. If it´s full then, I´ll wait for my turn. 

 

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

What most people don't realize with ship's crew, is that the total hours of labor for the entire crew, from dishwasher to Captain, is a finite quantity, defined by law.  This is not a mall where you can hire someone additional to do the new duties of elevator monitor, nor can you ask someone to work a few hours a week extra to earn some more overtime.  Maritime law determines the total number of hours that crew can work in any 24 hours, and in any 7 day period, and if this is exceeded, both the company and the crew member can be fined.  The well commented on "crew reductions" that I see here on CC are not crew reductions, they are changes to services that have been required to meet the new limits on hours that crew can work.  Gone are the days when the company could say, "here's the amount of work your position needs to do, and here's the amount of pay we will give you to do it, and how long it takes you to do it is your problem".

 

Again, I ask how this problem is dealt with on land, in buildings where the stairs are primarily for emergencies, so the load falls 100% on the elevators.  Do they have dedicated disabled elevators or elevator monitors?

As usual great post Chief. I´d like to hear the answer to your Question as well.

 

11 hours ago, 6theagle said:

My idea has sparked a lot of conversations. A couple of things may respond to many of you and I confess that I find it challenging to return to each response, and that cannot be fixed in time to continue this opportunity for discussion.

Walking stairs for the general population is a choice, you can choose to walk, or you can choose to use the elevator. When you take the elevator, you are exercising a choice. I cannot make that choice. To use the elevator when you see people who cannot make the same choice is what I am referring to as the reason for the dedicated or supervised elevator. If waiting for an elevator is fair for me, it should be for you too. That means that you can and will continue to use an elevator, just not all of them.

That IS fair, and nothing more than a service request. I suggest that this only happen at peak times, so we are not thrown into the general population of thousands where we cannot compete for needed space and transport.

 

There are kind people everywhere and our cruise community is truly generous and helpful. My point is that they are on vacation too, and they should not be responsible for my transport. The kindness of strangers is wonderful, but not always reliable and not always present. 

 

If your idea would be followed it had to be one Elevator for those in chairs / Scooters and those would be limited to that Elevator. So have them line up for that one and during those Peak times Limit them to that Elevator. It actually might help the rest of the ship and I´m Pretty sure it would make lines even longer for those in chairs / Scooters. Anyway this would not work for pure workload for the crew. There would Need to be a crew member Monitoring the line on every deck.

 

You could do as I do. I.e. when the Show is out, I walk to the midship Elevators to go up, as there´s mostly Long lines at the Forward ones. This you could do as well, as it´s no Problem for a wheelchair to travel that way. Just because you talked About choices and others having them and you don´t.

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the more I think about it, the idea of a  dedicated elevator that is build  and adapted for wheelchair, scooters, strollers etc.. is not a bad idea. Maybe it could have other dimensions, wider so two fit side by side and maybe not so nicely decorated as these things scrape walls all the times, especially scooters being used by people who rent them for vacations ( ex. Disney world).  Having floors number put lower so their are reachable. I could see such an adaption be valuable. 

 

Here are my personal thoughts on the whole thing of waiting though. I am an able bodied person and feel I have the same right to use an elevator as a person who NEEDS it as opposed to me who WANTS it. Now if I am in a building with a small elevator and maybe one floor, I will walk as I am not that lazy and it's faster.   but cruise ships are basically high rises on the open sea. We will soon be on the Oasis and no way in hell am I going to walk from the atrium level up to the pool level. I would expect a person in a wheelchair  in places where elevators are used by all to also-: yield, be patient and also wait for their turn as a walker. 

 

Now people not making room, when their is.. ( I mean come on people give up a bit of person bubbel space) to let a wheel chair in is simply rude.  

 

For those saying walkers should let ADAs cut in line, I ask, but what if more and more wheelchair, scooters keep coming? How many elevators should I skip before I say, hello,now I have been waiting 20 minutes? .. To be fair is that everyone waits their turn, regardless of capability. 

 

I have though yielded, example both parties try to fit in and then we realize the handicapped person's party wont all fit, then I have said ok, we get out and wait for the next one. 

 

 

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I feel like it should be first come, first serve unless there is an emergency.  All people should use the stairs as they are able.  It's the same as with the muster drill. 

 

I think a point is very well made about not seeing disabilities.  I will be having knee surgery several weeks before my cruise and I asked my doctor how far along I should be.  He told me I should be walking normally, but no stairs or jogging yet.  Should I carry a doctor's note to show people that I'm restricted from walking up and down stairs?  That's getting a bit carried away.  I guess using this thread can help bring awareness that just because you don't see a scooter, cane, crutches, wheelchair, limp, don't assume they are perfectly healthy and can use the stairs.

 

I will say I'm very aware of making sure no one cuts in line during those peak times waiting for an elevator. Wait your turn.  It ticks me off especially when an older, less mobile couple get cut off trying to get into an elevator.  Wait your turn...period. 

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