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Ketchikan Float Planes Crash


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This is absolutely heartbreaking.

Single engine bush flying in Alaska will never be without risks, but these professionals were very experienced career floatplane pilots and taking pride in their knowledge of the local environment and their handling proficiency.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Krazy Kruizers said:

So we had 2 different companies -- Mountain Air and Taquan Air.

 

And 1 private tour and 1 ship's tour.

 

Just trying to keep things straight.

 

Very sad.

 

Maybe I am just being paranoid, but I like taking ship's tours for the safety factor (for one reason).  Especially true when aircraft and watercraft are involved.  I feel more comfortable knowing that HAL has checked out these vendors more thoroughly than I would or could have myself.

 

  

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17 minutes ago, DaveOKC said:

 

Maybe I am just being paranoid, but I like taking ship's tours for the safety factor (for one reason).  Especially true when aircraft and watercraft are involved.  I feel more comfortable knowing that HAL has checked out these vendors more thoroughly than I would or could have myself.

 

  

I totally understand your point of view Dave, and I share it, but this is not to say that Randy and Mountain Air were not just as creditable as cruise line vendors, just too small I think, and my guess is that he and his plane did not have capacity to be a cruise line excursion vendor.  In reading reports today it's clear that he was very highly respected as a person, family man, pilot and tour guide.   

As for trying to absorb the magnitude of this event, it's just too much to take in,I can't even begin to imagine.....  As a first responder myself, when I go on vacation I really want to rest from the trauma of everyday horrors, and this is just a huge horror.  Blessings to all those touched by these events, there and everywhere.  m--

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37 minutes ago, DaveOKC said:

 

Maybe I am just being paranoid, but I like taking ship's tours for the safety factor (for one reason).  Especially true when aircraft and watercraft are involved.  I feel more comfortable knowing that HAL has checked out these vendors more thoroughly than I would or could have myself.

 

  

 

I feel disrespectful to the victims saying this but you need to google the crash history of Taquan air.   We’ve taken independent tours for years and they often do cruise tours as well.  One of my favorite private Alaskan guides has taken Bill Gates and his Hollywood friends all over the state.  Another favorite guide has turned down numerous offers from cruise lines to buy his business.  

Again my humble apologies for commenting on this devastating tragedy. 

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3 hours ago, VennDiagram said:

If you are on FB, the page "Metlakatla, Alaska" has an article, and a video, about the Mountain Air pilot ❤️ He was well loved, highly respected.

Thanks for sharing.  He sounds like a wonderful person.  The LA Times article written several years ago, linked in Post 28, is heartbreaking now to read.  So, so very sad.

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26 minutes ago, VennDiagram said:

 

That's worth repeating ❤️ thank you.

Yes, I read links and comments posted online and on the Princess thread.  It is such a dangerous business.  My husband's family has an Alaskan mountain names for one of them from when he crashed flying bush planes decades ago.  Stuff happens... on the roads, in the air, on the seas, even in people's homes.  It's not a reason to be paranoid, we need to life our lives fearlessly, respectful of the opportunities and the potential hazards.  As we pause to consider this tragedy we can also feel grateful that our own path has brought us this far!  m--  

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1 hour ago, DaveOKC said:

 

Maybe I am just being paranoid, but I like taking ship's tours for the safety factor (for one reason).  Especially true when aircraft and watercraft are involved.  I feel more comfortable knowing that HAL has checked out these vendors more thoroughly than I would or could have myself.

 

  

 

I would say that 95% of the time we also take ship excursions.

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2 hours ago, DaveOKC said:

 

Maybe I am just being paranoid, but I like taking ship's tours for the safety factor (for one reason).  Especially true when aircraft and watercraft are involved.  I feel more comfortable knowing that HAL has checked out these vendors more thoroughly than I would or could have myself.

 

  

 

The plane with 10 Royal Princess passengers were on a ships excursion. 😢

 

Denise 

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As a retired commercial corporate pilot, I have issues with the single pilot helicopter and fixed wing tour flights.   An aerial tour in an aircraft is not like cruising straight and level for hours at flight level 380 in a commercial transport aircraft.   A tour usually involves flying at very low altitude, making constant 360 turns and altitude changes, in mountainous terrain, with many other small aircraft doing the same thing in the same area.  The single pilot has many jobs.  He must first fly the plane or helicopter.  Next he must be on constant lookout for other tour aircraft in the area.  Then he is expected to give a running narration to his passengers, answer their questions,  and make continuous turns so that both sides of the aircraft get equal picture opportunities.   That is one hell of a workload on a single pilot, no matter how experienced he/she is.   When my tail is on the line, I want my pilot to be doing one thing..... flying the plane and looking out for other tour aircraft who are doing the same thing.   I know it would increase the cost of aerial tours, but the job of dealing with the passengers, the narration, and the questions should be left to 2nd person, a tour guide.  And yes, it would take up another seat in the small aircraft.   But after a mid-air collision like this,  how much is a life worth ?   The actual cause of this tragedy is still to be determined, but a mid-air collision between 2 tour aircraft means one or both pilots were distracted,  with non-pilot duties.  When I take an aircraft tour, I want my pilot to be doing one thing.... flying the plane.  

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As an "ex" private pilot (with a commercial license) I really agree with Tad2005's  comments.  Having one set of eyes in a cockpit leaves something to be desired.  So now there will be the usual NTSB investigation (which often takes more than a year) and then they will release a report that says "two planes collided" and "it was pilot error."   Even under ideal circumstances it can be difficult to spot other aircraft and there are actually some blind spots between two aircraft (depending on high wing vs low wind and some other factors).  I spent much of my flying time in uncontrolled airspace (which is what they have in most of Alaska) and always was concerned about possible collisions.  The best weapons I had was my radio (pilots can use a common frequency to announce their position and intentions) and other passengers (I would always ask my passengers to keep an eye out for other aircraft).    What happened in Alaska is very sad and our hearts go out to the families of those involved.  

 

Hank

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21 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

As an "ex" private pilot (with a commercial license) I really agree with Tad2005's  comments.  Having one set of eyes in a cockpit leaves something to be desired.  So now there will be the usual NTSB investigation (which often takes more than a year) and then they will release a report that says "two planes collided" and "it was pilot error."   Even under ideal circumstances it can be difficult to spot other aircraft and there are actually some blind spots between two aircraft (depending on high wing vs low wind and some other factors).  I spent much of my flying time in uncontrolled airspace (which is what they have in most of Alaska) and always was concerned about possible collisions.  The best weapons I had was my radio (pilots can use a common frequency to announce their position and intentions) and other passengers (I would always ask my passengers to keep an eye out for other aircraft).    What happened in Alaska is very sad and our hearts go out to the families of those involved.  

 

Hank

Hank... A huge help in busy terminal areas is TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System).  You get an alarm and an audible command to "Climb" or "Descend"  when another aircraft is climbing or descending into your flight path.  But that system requires a Mode S transponder, and I don't know if the aircraft used for aerial tours are equipped that way.  As you said, most of Alaska is uncontrolled airspace, so maybe the expense of equipping a tour aircraft with TCAS and mode S transponders is not considered.   I don't know.  My King Air B200 trips never took me to Alaska.  Just the Conus and Caribbean.

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31 minutes ago, TAD2005 said:

The single pilot has many jobs.  He must first fly the plane or helicopter.  Next he must be on constant lookout for other tour aircraft in the area.  Then he is expected to give a running narration to his passengers, answer their questions,  and make continuous turns so that both sides of the aircraft get equal picture opportunities.   That is one hell of a workload on a single pilot, no matter how experienced he/she is.   When my tail is on the line, I want my pilot to be doing one thing..... flying the plane and looking out for other tour aircraft who are doing the same thing.   I know it would increase the cost of aerial tours, but the job of dealing with the passengers, the narration, and the questions should be left to 2nd person, a tour guide.  And yes, it would take up another seat in the small aircraft.   But after a mid-air collision like this,  how much is a life worth ?   The actual cause of this tragedy is still to be determined, but a mid-air collision between 2 tour aircraft means one or both pilots were distracted,  with non-pilot duties.  When I take an aircraft tour, I want my pilot to be doing one thing.... flying the plane.  

 

Based upon my experience as a guest on such a flight, this is a very wise observation.  Obviously, the pilot of my plane's first job was to get us from Juneau to Taku Lodge and back.  He did so successfully and provided interesting narration of our tour over the glaciers.  Being a senior citizen with poor lower body strength (which I did not realize until then), I had much difficulty getting out of my very low seat in the plane at Taku Lodge and when we arrived back to Juneau.  The pilot had to help me out of my seat and out of the plane at both locations.

 

Maybe these pilots are being asked to do more than they ought to do.

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To those who, like me, were concerned for Island Wings, I have now got confirmation from Shona:

 

Thank you so much for checking in on us!  Island Wings was not involved in the incident yesterday, however we are beyond devastated as this is a very small and close knit industry and community.  Your thoughts and prayers are greatly appreciated. 

With deepest gratitude,

Michelle and Shona

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We need to let the NTSB sort this tragedy out and provide the requirements/recommendations needed to allow for all of us and those who will follow booking these flights to be as safe as it is possible to be.

 

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I am enlightened by the observations of Ancient/Wanderer and TAD2005 above... first, that there are so many more ships in port now compared to our first cruise to Alaska in 2003, so much more demand for excursion flights, and so many jobs for these pilots to be multi-tasking while they are responsible for flying.  Hmmmm.

We were just considering the 21 night HAL itinerary leaving May 28 but one thing I noticed was that there are a ton of ships in the major ports and some of them are very large ships taking up the big docks leaving Maasdam to be tendering.  In Ketchikan 6 ships in port; in Juneau 5 ships in port.  That's a lot of pressure and crowding, in the streets, competition for excursions.... and maybe crowding in the skies too?  For many reasons we passed on this opportunity, but this overcrowding factor was considered as it would have made a problem for us trying to pick up a cruise at the last minute and finding excursions

.

My comments on TAD2005's thoughts is recognizing that when we (the fire/EMS service I work with in rural northern NM) request a helicopter medical evacuation, we get a "bird" with a pilot plus flight nurse and paramedic... the pilot "only" flies the bird and has no responsibilities for patient care.  The pilots have no medical training and keep their focus on their job without distractions of what's happening with the patient.   Somebody figured out the benefits of this model!   m--

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6 hours ago, RMLincoln said:

I am enlightened by the observations of Ancient/Wanderer and TAD2005 above... first, that there are so many more ships in port now compared to our first cruise to Alaska in 2003, so much more demand for excursion flights, and so many jobs for these pilots to be multi-tasking while they are responsible for flying.  Hmmmm.

We were just considering the 21 night HAL itinerary leaving May 28 but one thing I noticed was that there are a ton of ships in the major ports and some of them are very large ships taking up the big docks leaving Maasdam to be tendering.  In Ketchikan 6 ships in port; in Juneau 5 ships in port.  That's a lot of pressure and crowding, in the streets, competition for excursions.... and maybe crowding in the skies too?  For many reasons we passed on this opportunity, but this overcrowding factor was considered as it would have made a problem for us trying to pick up a cruise at the last minute and finding excursions

.

My comments on TAD2005's thoughts is recognizing that when we (the fire/EMS service I work with in rural northern NM) request a helicopter medical evacuation, we get a "bird" with a pilot plus flight nurse and paramedic... the pilot "only" flies the bird and has no responsibilities for patient care.  The pilots have no medical training and keep their focus on their job without distractions of what's happening with the patient.   Somebody figured out the benefits of this model!   m--

 

Our first Alaskan cruise was in 1989 -- very ships in Alaska and all were small.  None of these mega ships that are taking over everything.

 

We have seen quite a bit of change in all the ports over the years -- far too many people.

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13 hours ago, TAD2005 said:

Hank... A huge help in busy terminal areas is TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System).  You get an alarm and an audible command to "Climb" or "Descend"  when another aircraft is climbing or descending into your flight path.  But that system requires a Mode S transponder, and I don't know if the aircraft used for aerial tours are equipped that way.  As you said, most of Alaska is uncontrolled airspace, so maybe the expense of equipping a tour aircraft with TCAS and mode S transponders is not considered.   I don't know.  My King Air B200 trips never took me to Alaska.  Just the Conus and Caribbean.

Is this TCAS system something that can be installed and used effectively on a single plane, or do all planes in the vicinity have to be equipped?

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17 hours ago, DaveOKC said:

 

Maybe I am just being paranoid, but I like taking ship's tours for the safety factor (for one reason).  Especially true when aircraft and watercraft are involved.  I feel more comfortable knowing that HAL has checked out these vendors more thoroughly than I would or could have myself.

 

  

 

I agree to a degree as they do more background work.  HOWEVER, we were in Costa Rica in December 2015 and one of the HAL crocodile tour boats was bumped by another boat and several passengers fell off.  The tour guides apparently did nothing and fellow passengers completed the job of getting passengers back on board and performing first aid.  After that I am aware of one passenger unit who did not return to the cruise and a few others had neck braces for the remainder of the cruise. 

 

So so that said, accidents can happen to both on Cruise line tours and independent ones.  That event changed my view on cruise line only tours as there are some amazing independent operators out there (like this one was!) 

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