Cunard's New Conservation and Sustainability Modifications

[3rdGenCunarder]

13 minutes ago, MamaFrog said:

 

Goodness gracious! I appreciate etiquette and manners have been somewhat in decline across past decades but I can't imagine people with such little decorum would escape notice and correction on QM2 - if not from the stewards from the passengers themselves.

 

 

There was a VERY long thread on this subject on the HAL board a few weeks ago. Some of the things people reported seeing would make you never go near a buffet again!  Some people have no idea that what they do could affect anyone else. Most posters on that thread said they would not approach the "guilty" party directly, but instead tell a steward so that the "contaminated" food could be removed. That's what I would do. Someone with so little decorum, as you put it (nicely said!), could turn out to be quite nasty when challenged. 

[MamaFrog]

26 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

There was a VERY long thread on this subject on the HAL board a few weeks ago. Some of the things people reported seeing would make you never go near a buffet again!  Some people have no idea that what they do could affect anyone else. Most posters on that thread said they would not approach the "guilty" party directly, but instead tell a steward so that the "contaminated" food could be removed. That's what I would do. Someone with so little decorum, as you put it (nicely said!), could turn out to be quite nasty when challenged. 

Oh dear - one would have hoped this was a rarity!

I take your point about intervention. I believe it is considered bad form to point out such errors of etiquette too, but admit I would be hard pressed to keep the school teacher in me silent.

 

I am definitely turning into a grumpy old woman, and no doubt must appear a tad eccentric in these moderm times! Manners mattered to my father and they matter to me.

I struggled last voyage with the way some people treated the staff on board - no please or thank you, let alone a civil greeting. 

Heyho. Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength. ( Oh for a fan to wrap their knuckles 😉)

 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

47 minutes ago, MamaFrog said:

Oh dear - one would have hoped this was a rarity!

I take your point about intervention. I believe it is considered bad form to point out such errors of etiquette too, but admit I would be hard pressed to keep the school teacher in me silent.

 

I am definitely turning into a grumpy old woman, and no doubt must appear a tad eccentric in these moderm times! Manners mattered to my father and they matter to me.

I struggled last voyage with the way some people treated the staff on board - no please or thank you, let alone a civil greeting. 

Heyho. Rudeness is the weak man’s imitation of strength. ( Oh for a fan to wrap their knuckles 😉)

 

 

 

You sound like a kindred spirit. I become grumpy when I see bad manners. And I once told a class it would have been almost worth it to be a nun and and be allowed to walk around the classroom with a ruler in hand. (This started a rumor I was an ex-nun!)

[VintageCCG]

One step that would make sense would be to provide hygienic filling stations for reusable water bottles.
The current expectation of filling a glass to fill a bottle is silly and unnecessary, when hygienic filling stations are widely available in many public buildings.

As for jam, butter, etc. it is easy enough to either pre-fill small stainless steel "sauce cups" or provide a larger container from which pax can fill their own small cup. Many restaurants already do this.

https://www.amazon.ca/1-5-Ounce-Commercial-Stainless-Individual-Tezzorio/dp/B06XYZ6JWX/ref=asc_df_B06XYZ6JWX/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=335305589500&hvpos=1o7&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16547844591153840734&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9000660&hvtargid=pla-350227491064&psc=1

Undoubtedly there will be wastage, but likely with less impact than many hundreds of sealed packets at every meal.

[PORT ROYAL]

12 hours ago, VintageCCG said:

One step that would make sense would be to provide hygienic filling stations for reusable water bottles.
The current expectation of filling a glass to fill a bottle is silly and unnecessary.

 

Ask your steward to leave a large jug of drinking water every evening along with your ice. 

 

 

 

[eroller]

Celebrity Cruises has already gotten rid of plastic water bottles, and replaced them with paper water cartons.  I think the cap is still plastic but that is it.  I do like the idea of refillable water stations around the ship, with filtered and purified water.  I'm sure they will figure out a way to charge for it.  Swipe your card to activate the water filling station!  

 

Overall I would say Cunard/Carnival Corp. are behind the curve when it comes to reducing environmental waste and being forward thinking.  The fact that Carnival Corp. has so blatantly violated their last environmental probation and basically bought their way out of harsher penalties (yet again) does not speak well to their corporate culture.   

[kentchris]

Tetra Paks (which is what that looks like) are made of layers of plastic, aluminium, and paper so require specialist recycling facilities. Saying it’s a paper carton and therefore more virtuous than material X is a bit of an oversimplification, and if people dump Tetra Paks randomly in the environment they’re as bad as any other waste. 

[eroller]

3 hours ago, kentchris said:

Tetra Paks (which is what that looks like) are made of layers of plastic, aluminium, and paper so require specialist recycling facilities. Saying it’s a paper carton and therefore more virtuous than material X is a bit of an oversimplification, and if people dump Tetra Paks randomly in the environment they’re as bad as any other waste. 

 

 

I have no idea what the carton is made of, but obviously Celebrity deemed it more environmentally friendly and took steps to transition to that product (among many other initiatives).  I also doubt they are randomly dumping the product anywhere.    

[wenlyn]

I would think on a contained environment like a ship the tetrapak packaging could be collected up & shipped to a specialist recycling place in the same way the other recyclables are currently collected & off loaded.

[eroller]

Looks like just one alternative Celebrity is testing, with some others being aluminum and glass.  Great to see they are doing something! 

 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, wenlyn said:

I would think on a contained environment like a ship the tetrapak packaging could be collected up & shipped to a specialist recycling place in the same way the other recyclables are currently collected & off loaded.

 

1 hour ago, eroller said:

Looks like just one alternative Celebrity is testing, with some others being aluminum and glass.  Great to see they are doing something! 

 

Whether its a "standard" tetrapak or this "biodegradable" one, my bet is it ends up in the incinerator onboard.

[BlueRiband]

10 hours ago, eroller said:

"...Overall I would say Cunard/Carnival Corp. are behind the curve when it comes to reducing environmental waste and being forward thinking.  The fact that Carnival Corp. has so blatantly violated their last environmental probation and basically bought their way out of harsher penalties (yet again) does not speak well to their corporate culture.   

 

Should we therefore continue to patronize a cruise line that does so?  It's a bit hypocritical to rile on and on about a company being such a callous corporate citizen yet continue to give that company one's business.

[eroller]

1 minute ago, BlueRiband said:

Should we therefore continue to patronize a cruise line that does so?  It's a bit hypocritical to rile on and on about a company being such a callous corporate citizen yet continue to give that company one's business.

 

 

That is a personal choice you have to make.  I will make my own choices, but whether or not I give business to a company, I’m certainly entitled to have an opinion on how environmentally conscious they are.  

[BlueRiband]

2 minutes ago, eroller said:

 

 

That is a personal choice you have to make.  I will make my own choices, but whether or not I give business to a company, I’m certainly entitled to have an opinion on how environmentally conscious they are.  

True, but it does make my point.  A lot of us will tolerate objectionable behaviour as long as it continues to provide us with something that we want or need.

[eroller]

Just now, BlueRiband said:

True, but it does make my point.  A lot of us will tolerate objectionable behaviour as long as it continues to provide us with something that we want or need.

 

 

Again that is an individual choice.  I don’t judge and certainly don’t tell people how they should spend their money.  Personally I don’t think Carnival Corp is an evil company, but obviously they have a corporate culture and environmental record that could be improved upon.  Hopefully it will be, and perhaps this will be the catalyst that does the trick.    

[kentchris]

1 hour ago, eroller said:

 

 

I have no idea what the carton is made of, but obviously Celebrity deemed it more environmentally friendly and took steps to transition to that product (among many other initiatives).  I also doubt they are randomly dumping the product anywhere.    

I didn’t actually suggest that Celebrity are randomly dumping anything, just that any packaging ending up in the wrong place is a bad thing whatever it’s made of. 

 

The waste business isn’t simple, whether on land or at sea, and there isn’t a universal solution. Any packaging has costs as well as any benefits, and what works better for one company may not for another.

[eroller]

1 hour ago, kentchris said:

 

 

The waste business isn’t simple, whether on land or at sea, and there isn’t a universal solution. Any packaging has costs as well as any benefits, and what works better for one company may not for another.

 

 

This is true.  Eliminating one type of waste often creates another.  Scrubbers are a good example.  They improve air quality but create a toxic sludge that has to be disposed of somewhere.   Some has already been “accidentally” discharged into the ocean.  Otherwise I guess it ends up in landfills and pollutes the ground.  

 

Im guessing you are going to see Carnival Corp taking some fairly drastic measures, as they are under intense scrutiny.  Some of those measure may be more trouble than they are worth, but at least it will look like are doing something.  

 

Hopefully in the long run all this will pay off from an environmental standpoint.  Small steps I suppose but better than no steps at all.  

[VintageCCG]

On 6/14/2019 at 9:35 AM, PORT ROYAL said:

 

Ask your steward to leave a large jug of drinking water every evening along with your ice. 

 

 

 

 

Or just make several hygienic refilling stations available ... simpler, costs less, available 24/7, it is accepted practice elsewhere.

[PORT ROYAL]

3 hours ago, VintageCCG said:

 

Or just make several hygienic refilling stations available ... simpler, costs less, available 24/7, it is accepted practice elsewhere.

 

Or leave the water station as is, and guests do just purchase a small kitchen funnel.

Even simpler, costing even less, even available 24/7, and could be an accepted practice everywhere.

 

[ew101]

22 hours ago, eroller said:

 Personally I don’t think Carnival Corp is an evil company, but obviously they have a corporate culture and environmental record that could be improved upon.  Hopefully it will be, and perhaps this will be the catalyst that does the trick.    

I got the email and was underwhelmed.  Given the current position of Carnival Corporation in the environment doghouse, I was hoping for something stronger.   I was asking myself what could possibly slow the relentless growth in cruising- having it become non PC from a pollution standpoint.   

 

Looking out the window at the bunkering barge - that is the hardest question.   If Samuel Cunard was around today he would be finding a new and bold way to cross the oceans.  

 

Carnival Corporation could invest in some propulsion trials.  Maybe they could convert/modify an old ship to try these out - there are some candidates:

Flettner / Magnus sails 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/spinning-metal-sails-could-slash-fuel-consumption-emissions-cargo-ships

LNG fuel + Solar Panels + sails 

https://www.motorship.com/news101/industry-news/oshima-shipbuilding-and-dnv-gl-sign-strategic-cooperation

Hydrogen Fuel Cells - see Viking 

Biofuels - the math here is sometimes dodgy - except maybe algae 

Etc.

 

[ew101]

8 hours ago, VintageCCG said:

 

Or just make several hygienic refilling stations available ... simpler, costs less, available 24/7, it is accepted practice elsewhere.

Water bottle filling stations on cruise ships seem to be one of the most challenging engineering, public health and economic issues of our time 

Edited June 17, 2019 by ew101

[eroller]

48 minutes ago, ew101 said:

I got the email and was underwhelmed.  Given the current position of Carnival Corporation in the environment doghouse, I was hoping for something stronger.   I was asking myself what could possibly slow the relentless growth in cruising- having it become non PC from a pollution standpoint.   

 

Looking out the window at the bunkering barge - that is the hardest question.   If Samuel Cunard was around today he would be finding a new and bold way to cross the oceans.  

 

Carnival Corporation could invest in some propulsion trials.  Maybe they could convert/modify an old ship to try these out - there are some candidates:

Flettner / Magnus sails 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/spinning-metal-sails-could-slash-fuel-consumption-emissions-cargo-ships

LNG fuel + Solar Panels + sails 

https://www.motorship.com/news101/industry-news/oshima-shipbuilding-and-dnv-gl-sign-strategic-cooperation

Hydrogen Fuel Cells - see Viking 

Biofuels - the math here is sometimes dodgy - except maybe algae 

Etc.

 

 

 

Carnival Corp has invested in LNG. In fact AIDA NOVA is the industry’s first fully LNG fueled cruise ship.  More sister ships to follow for P&O, Costa, Carnival, and a LNG hybrid for Princess.  

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ew101 said:

I got the email and was underwhelmed.  Given the current position of Carnival Corporation in the environment doghouse, I was hoping for something stronger.   I was asking myself what could possibly slow the relentless growth in cruising- having it become non PC from a pollution standpoint.   

 

Looking out the window at the bunkering barge - that is the hardest question.   If Samuel Cunard was around today he would be finding a new and bold way to cross the oceans.  

 

Carnival Corporation could invest in some propulsion trials.  Maybe they could convert/modify an old ship to try these out - there are some candidates:

Flettner / Magnus sails 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/spinning-metal-sails-could-slash-fuel-consumption-emissions-cargo-ships

LNG fuel + Solar Panels + sails 

https://www.motorship.com/news101/industry-news/oshima-shipbuilding-and-dnv-gl-sign-strategic-cooperation

Hydrogen Fuel Cells - see Viking 

Biofuels - the math here is sometimes dodgy - except maybe algae 

Etc.

 

Sadly, most of these things are just not feasible for a cruise ship.  The largest Flettner sails generate about 3Mw of propulsion, so you would need 15-25 of these sails to power a cruise ship (just the propulsion). Think what that would look like.  The power savings is also dependent on wind speed and direction relative to ship's course, so you would still need diesels to operate when conditions are not optimal.    When these things are proposed for ships, you have to realize that a cargo ship will have a hotel load of 0.3-0.5Mw (about 20-25 souls onboard), compared to a cruise ship's 8-10Mw.  Also, while the largest container ships have propulsion engines as large or larger than the propulsion of a large cruise ship, most cargo ships run in around 20-30Mw of propulsion, compared to a cruise ship's 40-80Mw of propulsion power.  As for solar panels, you'll notice that the entire area of hatch covers is covered in solar panels, for a small cargo ship.  RCI tried solar panels on one of the Oasis class, and found that a large array could only provide power to the Boardwalk area.  Solar power generation is a low density system (low wattage per area), while cruise ships are extremely dense power consumers.  The entire sides and top of a cruise ship would need to be covered with solar panels and Flettner sails to power the ship, and you would still need to have azipods or propellers for when the wind isn't right, or when you are maneuvering into port, as well as battery banks and inverters for the solar panels.  And, biofuels have their own set of problems, which is why no one currently runs more than a 20% blend of bio to fossil diesel.

 

Sorry, while I see Samuel Cunard as a great businessman, who embraced new technology, I don't see much that makes him a "visionary" in the maritime world, as screw propellers were around for 20 years before Cunard used them, and iron ships were almost as old, and these are touted as some of his innovations.

[TheOldBear]

1 hour ago, ew101 said:

I got the email and was underwhelmed.  Given the current position of Carnival Corporation in the environment doghouse, I was hoping for something stronger.   I was asking myself what could possibly slow the relentless growth in cruising- having it become non PC from a pollution standpoint.   

 

Looking out the window at the bunkering barge - that is the hardest question.   If Samuel Cunard was around today he would be finding a new and bold way to cross the oceans.  

 

Carnival Corporation could invest in some propulsion trials.  Maybe they could convert/modify an old ship to try these out - there are some candidates:

Flettner / Magnus sails 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/spinning-metal-sails-could-slash-fuel-consumption-emissions-cargo-ships

LNG fuel + Solar Panels + sails 

https://www.motorship.com/news101/industry-news/oshima-shipbuilding-and-dnv-gl-sign-strategic-cooperation

Hydrogen Fuel Cells - see Viking 

Biofuels - the math here is sometimes dodgy - except maybe algae 

Etc.

 

 

With today's technology, Sam Cunard would commission a Brayton Cycle, 'pebble bed' nuke powered ship.

This technology is more mature than steam power was when he commissioned the original Britannia 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, eroller said:

 

 

Carnival Corp has invested in LNG. In fact AIDA NOVA is the industry’s first fully LNG fueled cruise ship.  More sister ships to follow for P&O, Costa, Carnival, and a LNG hybrid for Princess.  

The "LNG hybrid" for Princess is no different from the AIDA NOVA or any other marine LNG fueled diesel powered ship.  Burning straight LNG requires a spark ignition (auto-ignition temp for natural gas is 750*C), while diesel fuel auto-ignites (the principal of a diesel engine) at 210*C and residual fuel at 400*C.  So, on land, buses use spark plugs to ignite the LNG fuel, while marine diesels use 5% diesel fuel injected along with the LNG to "start the ignition along".  This ability to inject gaseous and liquid fuels at the same time, make these "dual fuel" engines.  They can operate on blends from 95% LNG/5% diesel to 0% LNG and 100% diesel (and residual fuel rather than diesel).  AIDA NOVA can operate completely on LNG (well, 95%), but not sure if she does, as the LNG bunkering infrastructure is still not as developed as cruise lines would like.  Further, the IMO's Safe Return to Port requirements of SOLAS require a second fuel for LNG powered passenger vessels, so there will always be a reserve of diesel fuel onboard.