Mardi Gras Part 2?

[cruzincat50]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:30 AM, jimbo5544 said:

Possibly the most meaningless stat in the industry.  

Do you have some way of comparing ship size(public space) to passenger count, other than personal opinions? If you can point me to data on square footage of public space on each ship in the fleet, I would be happy to create a spreadsheet for comparison. 

 

 

 

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, cruzincat50 said:

Do you have some way of comparing ship size(public space) to passenger count, other than personal opinions? If you can point me to data on square footage of public space on each ship in the fleet, I would be happy to create a spreadsheet for comparison. 

 

 

 

What would that tell you?  Which space do you use?   Which so I use?  How often do we use it? Is there public space that the majority of cruisers do not use?  Are there spaces included that are not used that the vast majority of cruisers do not use?  Data can be manipulated to show what ever tou want.  The measurement in question does little (if anything at all)  in assisting you or me  determine whether the Mardi  Gras or any other Mega ship will be right for us to cruise on.  

 

If sailing on a ship that has 5,000 plus cruisers works for you (or me) than it does, not because of meaningless ratio.  Is the lowest number the best, regardless of what features the spaces have?  My view is no, your opinion may vary.  

[cruzincat50]

27 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

What would that tell you?  Which space do you use?   Which so I use?  How often do we use it? Is there public space that the majority of cruisers do not use?  Are there spaces included that are not used that the vast majority of cruisers do not use?  Data can be manipulated to show what ever tou want.  The measurement in question does little (if anything at all)  in assisting you or me  determine whether the Mardi  Gras or any other Mega ship will be right for us to cruise on.  

 

If sailing on a ship that has 5,000 plus cruisers works for you (or me) than it does, not because of meaningless ratio.  Is the lowest number the best, regardless of what features the spaces have?  My view is no, your opinion may vary.  

So you are against using any tool to compare ships?  Where did I say that comparing the ratios was the be all - end all way to determine what everybody needs to use.  

FWIW, I created a spreadsheet to compare, not just Carnival ships, but all the major N American choices in cruise lines, because, I was wondering why everyone seems to like the Pride so much.  Most of the comments were that it was not so crowded.  Guess what I found out.  The Spirit Class has the highest ratio.  The Mardi Gras’ numbers put it near the bottom of the list, and not just when comparing only against Carnival ships.  

Given that Carnival has pretty much the same square footage in its cabins, the space per passenger comparison can pretty much be divided between public spaces and crew areas.  The bigger the ship, the more crew members, so going from one size ship with x number of passengers to a ship with 2x number of passengers will probably end up with 2x number of crew members as well, requiring crew spaces to be 2x as well.

Now the question becomes, if you haven’t been on all of Carnival’s ships, how do you choose your next cruise if a feeling of being crowded on a ship matters to you.  I use “you” in general terms because it obviously doesn’t matter to everyone, but for those that it does matter, a little mathematics may help to compare.

 

For Gods sake man, it’s just another tool.

Edited June 17, 2019 by cruzincat50

[jimbo5544]

8 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

So you are against using any tool to compare ships?  Where did I say that comparing the ratios was the be all - end all way to determine what everybody needs to use.  

FWIW, I created a spreadsheet to compare, not just Carnival ships, but all the major N American choices in cruise lines, because, I was wondering why everyone seems to like the Pride so much.  Most of the comments were that it was not so crowded.  Guess what I found out.  The Spirit Class has the highest ratio.  The Mardi Gras’ numbers put it near the bottom of the list, and not just when comparing only against Carnival ships.  

Given that Carnival has pretty much the same square footage in its cabins, the space per passenger comparison can pretty much be divided between public spaces and crew areas.  The bigger the ship, the more crew members, so going from one size ship with x number of passengers to a ship with 2x number of passengers will probably end up with 2x number of crew members as well, requiring crew spaces to be 2x as well.

Now the question becomes, if you haven’t been on all of Carnival’s ships, how do you choose your next cruise if a feeling of being crowded on a ship matters to you.  I use “you” in general terms because it obviously doesn’t matter to everyone, but for those that it does matter, a little mathematics may help to compare.

 

For Gods sake man, it’s just another tool.

Lol,  are tools.  This particular one is often treated as the be all.  My post, reflects the many times it has been debated here.  

[cruzincat50]

6 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

Lol,  are tools.  This particular one is often treated as the be all.  My post, reflects the many times it has been debated here.  

I would call it argued, which it seems you like to do more than anything. If I had the GIF of the man beating the dead horse, here is where I would post it.

[cruzincat50]

Anyway, here is the pdf of the spreadsheet, sorted by ship across the major cruise lines.  Use it or don't use it.  Your choice. Note the change of ranking by Victory vs Radiance. Most importantly, because of the thread this is in, note the position of the Mardi Gras.

Ship space sorted by ship.pdf

Edited June 18, 2019 by cruzincat50

[crewsweeper]

2 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

Anyway, here is the pdf of the spreadsheet, sorted by ship across the major cruise lines.  Use it or don't use it.  Your choice. Note the change of ranking by Victory vs Radiance. Most importantly, because of the thread this is in, note the position of the Mardi Gras.

Ship space sorted by ship.pdf 28.34 kB · 6 downloads

While this is enlightening, it's still tonnage versus passenger count.  Not open public space versus passenger count.  Or total sq footage devoted to cabins versus ship size.  However, I'm doubting the rankings would change all that much. maybe around the margins. The push for/ cost of bigger ships is a push/need for more passengers and passenger generated revenues.  More cabins fit that model.

[cruzincat50]

5 minutes ago, crewsweeper said:

While this is enlightening, it's still tonnage versus passenger count.  Not open public space versus passenger count.  Or total sq footage devoted to cabins versus ship size.  However, I'm doubting the rankings would change all that much. maybe around the margins. The push for/ cost of bigger ships is a push/need for more passengers and passenger generated revenues.  More cabins fit that model.

I haven't found much if any information on public space.  Basically the comparison is just a tool that someone, especially if they have been on several different size ships in the past, to compare other ships to what their experience was. I feel very lucky that we live within 20 minutes of the Port of Baltimore.  The Pride has a very nice layout and never feels crowded.  The bridges that a cruise ship has to get under to get to Baltimore means that the mega ships will never be able to come here, effectively meaning Carnival may have to keep the Spirit class of ships around for longer than they otherwise would.   The market for cruises out of Baltimore is very good. 

[quickrate]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:36 AM, PhillyFan33579 said:

 

Definitely a trend in the wrong direction in my book. When we cruised on Victory last month, the ship never felt crowded no matter where we were or what we were doing. On the other hand, when we were on Sunshine in February, every place on the ship always seemed crowded with the exception of the Havana Bar and the Thermal Suite.

 

My wife and I have 28 cruises on Carnival on 11 different ships. We both agree our three least favorite ships are Sunshine, Vista and Horizon.  It’s not like we think these ships are terrible, but these ships definitely feel a lot more crowded than other class of ships. We still prefer Dream, Spirit and Conquest class ships. 

I have to agree with you. Have not been on Sunshine, but not a fan of The Vista and Horizon. Even though I enjoyed my cruise on both those ships, way too many people! I prefer Dream class on down. Even enjoy the Fantasy class. I'm not saying I will never go on the Mardi Gras but it isn't on my bucket list!

Pat

[jimbo5544]

4 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

I would call it argued, which it seems you like to do more than anything. If I had the GIF of the man beating the dead horse, here is where I would post it.

any time you ant to compare value here, I am up for it.  

[jimbo5544]

You can call it whatever you like...  opinions count all the way I around.  I will not disparage you for yours...😎  If you want to debate who adds more value here, I am up for that, start a thread and we can.  Oh....the indicator for open space still stinks.

[jcearth]

I understand using the PSR number as a tool, but more space doesn't matter if the cruise line isn't able to effectively disperse the people within the ship.  My anecdotal evidence:  I was on the Disney Dream back in 2013 - it has a listed PSR of 37 (should be tons of open space!!) In fact there was lots of space (parts of the ship resembled a ghost town), except if you had young children and wanted to take them to the pool. In all of my years of cruising, it was probably the most crowded I have ever felt on a ship.  Conversely, I was on the Sunshine last year (PSR of 27), and I never had trouble finding a seat at the pool, eating (while on deck for breakfast or lunch - sit near the Havana Bar) , comedy club, or shows, and I never felt crowded. Another example: Norwegian Escape - cruised on it in 2016 - PSR of 32.  Sounds like a great rating, until you realize just how much space is dedicated to for pay food venues, private areas for suite guests, and adults only areas of the ship. Families were relegated to a small sliver of space on deck, and complete areas of the ship inside were off limits.  Counterpoint again, Carnival Dream 2013, Carnival Breeze 2015 (and Carnival Magic coming in a few months), PSR of 29, but probably the best layouts of a ship I have ever been on. The only negative is probably the buffet (which can get a bit crowded). I think the Dream class is far superior in layout than the Conquest Class (Conquest 2014 - PSR of 31).

[TEXSUN46]

My perception of crowded depends on how they spread the popular spots. On the Conquest class there seems to be plenty of places that you can go and not see anyone because there is no popular venues in those areas. The popular spots were in same area so anytime you were in those areas it felt crowded and because of how some of the levels don't go through you had to pass through crowded areas to get anywhere. Comparing that class to the Magic I found that it seemed there was less crowding on the Magic even though there was less spaces that seemed empty there was better dispersal of the crowd and more ease going one end to another without having to pass through a mob. I will be on the Vista in October and am curious to see how it flows in comparison.

[cruzincat50]

1 hour ago, jimbo5544 said:

You can call it whatever you like...  opinions count all the way I around.  I will not disparage you for yours...😎  If you want to debate who adds more value here, I am up for that, start a thread and we can.  Oh....the indicator for open space still stinks.

Even debating value comes down to a differing of opinions as to what constitutes value. Pointless to fight that fight. It’s like arguing politics from the two extremes.  A waste of time.

[cruzincat50]

37 minutes ago, TEXSUN46 said:

My perception of crowded depends on how they spread the popular spots. On the Conquest class there seems to be plenty of places that you can go and not see anyone because there is no popular venues in those areas. The popular spots were in same area so anytime you were in those areas it felt crowded and because of how some of the levels don't go through you had to pass through crowded areas to get anywhere. Comparing that class to the Magic I found that it seemed there was less crowding on the Magic even though there was less spaces that seemed empty there was better dispersal of the crowd and more ease going one end to another without having to pass through a mob. I will be on the Vista in October and am curious to see how it flows in comparison.

And I will be on the Conquest for the first time in October, so I will see first hand what you are talking about.

[PhillyFan33579]

4 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

I haven't found much if any information on public space.  Basically the comparison is just a tool that someone, especially if they have been on several different size ships in the past, to compare other ships to what their experience was. I feel very lucky that we live within 20 minutes of the Port of Baltimore.  The Pride has a very nice layout and never feels crowded.  The bridges that a cruise ship has to get under to get to Baltimore means that the mega ships will never be able to come here, effectively meaning Carnival may have to keep the Spirit class of ships around for longer than they otherwise would.   The market for cruises out of Baltimore is very good. 

 

I don’t think it is going to happen any time soon, but at some point ports like Baltimore and Tampa with bridge height limits are going to be shut out from the cruise industry if they don’t address their bridge issue sooner or later. 

[cruzincat50]

14 minutes ago, PhillyFan33579 said:

 

I don’t think it is going to happen any time soon, but at some point ports like Baltimore and Tampa with bridge height limits are going to be shut out from the cruise industry if they don’t address their bridge issue sooner or later. 

Maryland has an LNG shipping port below the first bridge coming up the bay. It would be a good area to build a new cruise port if it comes to that.  Then the new ships fueled by LNG, could come up from Port Canaveral, closer to a larger population.  

 

Only problem with that will be the wealthy nimby types that live on the bay not wanting to see all the traffic it would bring, as well as the docks and noise they would bring.  

 

Also, Maryland has been considering adding a third span somewhere on the bay to take the pressure off the roads and bridges that are there now.  They have been studying that for decades and can’t even make up their minds where to put it.  Raising the existing bridges just for cruise ships won’t happen in my lifetime if ever.  

Edited June 18, 2019 by cruzincat50

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, cruzincat50 said:

Maryland has an LNG shipping port below the first bridge coming up the bay. It would be a good area to build a new cruise port if it comes to that.  Then the new ships fueled by LNG, could come up from Port Canaveral, closer to a larger population.  

 

Only problem with that will be the wealthy nimby types that live on the bay not wanting to see all the traffic it would bring, as well as the docks and noise they would bring.  

 

Also, Maryland has been considering adding a third span somewhere on the bay to take the pressure off the roads and bridges that are there now.  They have been studying that for decades and can’t even make up their minds where to put it.  Raising the existing bridges just for cruise ships won’t happen in my lifetime if ever.  

The Dominion Cove Point LNG terminal is an offshore terminal about 2 miles into the Bay.  I am not sure the mooring arrangement could handle a cruise ship, even if they wanted to spend the time to divert there each trip.  They could, however, contract with someone to build an LNG bunker barge, in the US, to run back and forth to the Baltimore cruise terminal.  Without a lot of customers (only the one potential cruise ship), that would be a costly business for the cruise lines, as they would essentially be subsidizing the bunker company.  Also, I don't know the Maryland or Virginia laws regarding loading and unloading LNG in metropolitan areas, so there could be some legal delays.  And, the LNG export facility has only started about a year ago, and the export capacity has been sold to an Indian energy company for the next 20 years, and is scheduled to go to Japan, so I doubt they would look to provide the small amounts that one cruise ship would take.

[cruzincat50]

19 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

The Dominion Cove Point LNG terminal is an offshore terminal about 2 miles into the Bay.  I am not sure the mooring arrangement could handle a cruise ship, even if they wanted to spend the time to divert there each trip.  They could, however, contract with someone to build an LNG bunker barge, in the US, to run back and forth to the Baltimore cruise terminal.  Without a lot of customers (only the one potential cruise ship), that would be a costly business for the cruise lines, as they would essentially be subsidizing the bunker company.  Also, I don't know the Maryland or Virginia laws regarding loading and unloading LNG in metropolitan areas, so there could be some legal delays.  And, the LNG export facility has only started about a year ago, and the export capacity has been sold to an Indian energy company for the next 20 years, and is scheduled to go to Japan, so I doubt they would look to provide the small amounts that one cruise ship would take.

The problem is the cruise ships that would require LNG are too big to get to Baltimore. The offshore terminal is about 1.1 miles off shore at its closest point. A cruise terminal built north or south of the facility could get fuel via a new pipeline from the storage facility on shore (Visible on Google Earth).  The LNG gets there by pipeline already. Not sure of the path it takes getting there.  

I would be pretty sure that any cruise ships wanting a relatively small amount of the total output could make arrangements with whatever entity has claim to it.  

Parking for the cruise terminal could be inland a ways, with some sort of shuttle service or light rail option to move the passengers to the terminal, so as to alleviate some of the local’s concerns. 

Given the choice between paying to replace existing bridges with higher ones through tax dollars, or letting a cruise organization foot the bill for a new cruise terminal south of the bridges, which choice would you make if you lived in Maryland?

Edited June 18, 2019 by cruzincat50

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

The problem is the cruise ships that would require LNG are too big to get to Baltimore. The offshore terminal is about 1.1 miles off shore at its closest point. A cruise terminal built north or south of the facility could get fuel via a new pipeline from the storage facility on shore (Visible on Google Earth).  The LNG gets there by pipeline already. Not sure of the path it takes getting there.  

I would be pretty sure that any cruise ships wanting a relatively small amount of the total output could make arrangements with whatever entity has claim to it.  

Parking for the cruise terminal could be inland a ways, with some sort of shuttle service or light rail option to move the passengers to the terminal, so as to alleviate some of the local’s concerns. 

Given the choice between paying to replace existing bridges with higher ones through tax dollars, or letting a cruise organization foot the bill for a new cruise terminal south of the bridges, which choice would you make if you lived in Maryland?

Gas comes to the Cove Point facility via pipeline in a gaseous form.  At the plant, it is re-liquified (this is the latest $4 billion investment they made), and then pumped via special cryogenic pipelines to the offshore terminal.  These pipelines are double wall, with a vacuum between the walls (essentially a thermos bottle) to keep the LNG at -250*F.  Again, permitting for this pipeline may be difficult, as it is not a "normal" gas pipeline.

 

What makes LNG fuel economical in the US is its availability, hence low price.  Since they have locked in delivery to Japan at a very high price, they would be loath to sell any product at going US prices.

Edited June 18, 2019 by chengkp75

[ProgRockCruiser]

17 hours ago, cruzincat50 said:

Given the choice between paying to replace existing bridges with higher ones through tax dollars, or letting a cruise organization foot the bill for a new cruise terminal south of the bridges, which choice would you make if you lived in Maryland?

 

I have no dog in this fight, as it were, but: as you pointed out, if wealthy NIMBY-ites are in the area, their choice would be: neither.  They would simply stop both choices from being realized, and the status quo would remain.

 

From what I gather, Galveston is investing in a LNG port facility, so my guess would be that is going to be the home port location of the second Carnival Mardi Gras-class (Helios) ship.  There is a lot of LNG export facility work going on there, so I would assume developing something for cruise ships would be a natural evolution:

 

https://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/NextDecade-gives-first-public-glimpses-of-13548929.php

 

"If approved by federal regulators, the proposed 97-mile pipeline would move 3 billion cubic feet of natural gas per day from the Katy natural gas hub in Waller County though the heart of Fort Bend County and just south of Brazos Bend State Park to a 550-acre site along the Texas City Ship Channel where a proposed liquefaction plant would produce up to 5.5 million metric tons of LNG per year."

 

This article from Dec 2018 talks about RCI's expansion at the port (for traditionally-fueled ships), but goes onto mention something about LNG:

 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/business/article/Royal-Caribbean-to-build-nearly-100M-cruise-13444607.php

 

"And if the port's growth continues as planned, Bayley said, it would be "a natural progression" to one day bring its LNG-powered Icon class of ships that are not yet sailing. They're expected to be similar in size to the Oasis class."

 

This article says something similar, from earlier that same year (Jan 2018):

 

https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/cruise-news/18312-galveston-continues-expansion-of-cruise-products.html

 

"Meanwhile, he is also looking at how to provide the next generation of ships with LNG."

[ProgRockCruiser]

On 6/18/2019 at 8:20 AM, cruzincat50 said:

Anyway, here is the pdf of the spreadsheet, sorted by ship across the major cruise lines.  Use it or don't use it.  Your choice. Note the change of ranking by Victory vs Radiance. Most importantly, because of the thread this is in, note the position of the Mardi Gras.

Ship space sorted by ship.pdf 28.34 kB · 14 downloads

 

Thanks for posting that spreadsheet.  I do recognize that application of available space varies, and that ships that, by the numbers should feel more open, can still have bottle necks and "feel crowded".

 

So, here is a question to the group: 

 

The Mardi Gras is in the same range, numerically, as some other "mega ships", including the MSC Grandiosa (still under construction) and the RC Spectrum of the Seas (just launched) home port is Shanghai, so difficult to judge compared to North American standards?).

 

The next pair of ships close to the Mardi Gras "number" and still quite large are the MSC Seaside and Seaview.

 

This review here at CC states quite bluntly that the ship seemed overcrowded:

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=604923

 

Other reviews are all over the place, as typically happens.  Not sure I can draw any firm conclusions.

 

MSC does seem to dominate the low numbers, with 15 out of the bottom 20.

 

Anyone have any experiences on similarly-rated "big ships" that they care to share?

[chengkp75]

One of the glaring discrepancies with this spreadsheet, is that the Oasis class is well down the list.  A lot of this is because the Central Park and Boardwalk areas are not included in Gross Tonnage (not enclosed space), so this public space is discounted.  A quick measurement of these areas from deck plans shows that they amount to 23,000 units of 100 cubic feet (and Gross Tonnage, unlike Gross Registered Tonnage, which is no longer used, is not a direct measurement of 100 cubic feet).  But, lets say we figure on 21,000 GT if this space were enclosed.  That would move Oasis up to 44.5 or better on your spreadsheet.

 

Balancing this is the reason I hate to use a GT/pax ratio, because GT includes crew living space, machinery spaces, and tankage (fuel, water).  A more accurate measurement would be a NT/pax (Net Tonnage) ratio, since Net Tonnage only considers the enclosed space used by passengers.  But Oasis would still suffer there due to the large unenclosed spaces, and secondly, no one ever sees NT figures outside of the ship's plans.

[elcuchio24]

On 6/13/2019 at 6:02 PM, jbethel11 said:

I hope it will port in New York year-round, and be named "Festivale". It would be similar to what NCL did with the Breakaway, starting in 2013. It could offer 7-day cruises to the Bahamas (Day 1 NY, Day 2 Sea, Day 3, Port Canaveral, Day 4 Private Island, Day 5 Nassau, Day 6 Sea, Day 7, Sea, Day 8, NY) and then a couple of 5-day Cruises to Bermuda and Canada. That, unfortunately, would be unlikely.

Me TOOOO

[cruzincat50]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

One of the glaring discrepancies with this spreadsheet, is that the Oasis class is well down the list.  A lot of this is because the Central Park and Boardwalk areas are not included in Gross Tonnage (not enclosed space), so this public space is discounted.  A quick measurement of these areas from deck plans shows that they amount to 23,000 units of 100 cubic feet (and Gross Tonnage, unlike Gross Registered Tonnage, which is no longer used, is not a direct measurement of 100 cubic feet).  But, lets say we figure on 21,000 GT if this space were enclosed.  That would move Oasis up to 44.5 or better on your spreadsheet.

 

Balancing this is the reason I hate to use a GT/pax ratio, because GT includes crew living space, machinery spaces, and tankage (fuel, water).  A more accurate measurement would be a NT/pax (Net Tonnage) ratio, since Net Tonnage only considers the enclosed space used by passengers.  But Oasis would still suffer there due to the large unenclosed spaces, and secondly, no one ever sees NT figures outside of the ship's plans.

Even the four Spirit Class ships would have variance from each other because of minor changes to the layouts via upgrades like the addition of restaurants on Lido, or the subtraction of other features.  GT/pax is alway going to be inaccurate, but somewhat accurate with ranking in large number differences.