Great Article on Overtourism - Shouldn't Cruise Lines Mix Up Their Itineraries More?

[clo]

13 minutes ago, Tom47 said:

I believe Bears Ears  was one of them.  Since you live in Nevada, here is another controversy.

https://www.npca.org/articles/2189-naming-matters?fbclid=IwAR3nCat2PUCnmkzBPdNrtbqxP2yp3ViliugXa01ZHc6LPugFOJpEE5GFoWo

Thanks so much for this.  I'm going to share with "the kids."  Do you do any climbing?  You might enjoy "The Dirtbag Diaries." And their outdoor films "Duct Tape Then Beer."

[Tom47]

8 minutes ago, clo said:

Thanks so much for this.  I'm going to share with "the kids."  Do you do any climbing?  You might enjoy "The Dirtbag Diaries." And their outdoor films "Duct Tape Then Beer."

I'm past climbing. I'm a fairly liberal guy, dedicated to protecting my 2 Cystic Fibrosis grandchildren from threats by the DEATH party's efforts to repeal the Affordable Care Act.

[clo]

22 minutes ago, Tom47 said:

I'm past climbing. I'm a fairly liberal guy, dedicated to protecting my 2 Cystic Fibrosis grandchildren from threats by the DEATH party's efforts to repeal the Affordable Care Act.

My kinda person.  Then google "Paul's Boots."  You'll love it.  Best to you and them.  xoc

[Tom47]

3 minutes ago, clo said:

My kinda person.  Then google "Paul's Boots."  You'll love it.  Best to you and them.  xoc

I have actually hiked part of the Appalachian trail-only 3 miles.  I recommend "a Walk in the Woods'  by Bill Bryson.  The movie is also pretty good, but somewhat miscast,-- Bryson and his friend were probably 20 years younger than Redford and Nolte .

[lenquixote66]

On 7/3/2019 at 6:18 AM, ontheweb said:

Actually, this is a big year for Bethel as it is the 50th anniversary of Woodstock. (We were at the site just this past Saturday and bought tickets for Jackson Browne this coming weekend.) 

 

But for years and years as the local tourist economy faded, both the county and the locals in Bethel did everything they could to keep people who wanted to come up and see that site away.  (BTW, it is now an official historical site.) In addition to concerts there, there is also a museum there with a permanent exhibit of the sixties and specifically the Woodstock concert. This year there is also an exhibit comparing the present to then. I spoke to the museum curator a few times, and told him that there is a fundamental flaw in that it skips from 1969, specifically from the concert, to the present without any in between. It totally skips everything the county did to discourage anything from ever happening there. For instance, Max Yasgur, who owned the land and made a wonderful speech caught on the film, was driven out of the county by his neighbors. The curator agreed with me and said that that history was important and they should do something to show it in the future. (The site only became Bethel Woods and a museum and concert site because the county billionaire (he invented cable tv) bought the land.

There will be a Woodstock 50th.reunion August 15 at Hippie Park in Seaclff,NY

[clo]

15 minutes ago, lenquixote66 said:

There will be a Woodstock 50th.reunion August 15 at Hippie Park in Seaclff,NY

Is this the one you referred to?

https://ew.com/music/2019/07/31/woodstock-50-officially-canceled/

[lenquixote66]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Is this the one you referred to?

https://ew.com/music/2019/07/31/woodstock-50-officially-canceled/

The reason why I did not go to the 1969 music festival is because I knew Michael Lang and could never imagine that it would be anything because of Lang.Obviously I was wrong.However,Lang messed things up for 2019.I was right about him but 50 years later.

There will be a concert on the site of the original concert (my friend Elliot’s band will be on stage at 2 PM).However,there will also be a concert at Hippie Park which I hope to be able to go to.I had intended to be at Bethel Woods but I cannot get there .

[ontheweb]

8 hours ago, lenquixote66 said:

The reason why I did not go to the 1969 music festival is because I knew Michael Lang and could never imagine that it would be anything because of Lang.Obviously I was wrong.However,Lang messed things up for 2019.I was right about him but 50 years later.

There will be a concert on the site of the original concert (my friend Elliot’s band will be on stage at 2 PM).However,there will also be a concert at Hippie Park which I hope to be able to go to.I had intended to be at Bethel Woods but I cannot get there .

We won't be there that day (Ringo Starr headlining), but will be at Bethel Woods on Saturday (Santana back on the 50th anniversary of their breakout performance at Woodstock with the Doobie Brothers opening.)

 

Our son is the head of parking and transportation there. He told me that the reason that they have bands those afternoons is that they hope it prevents everyone from trying to come at the same time. Saturday, Santana is sold out. The other two days will also be large concerts. (Sunday has John Fogarty with the Tedeschi Trucks Band also on the program.)

[Joebucks]

This is very similar to the discussion of "how housing prices are so high, it's oppressing the poor". When it comes down to a matter of supply and demand. We've added 2-2.5 billion people to this planet in the last 30 years. Instead of moving in the infinite miles of plains we have, people would rather ***** that NYC is too expensive. Population grows, but space doesn't

 

We have more people than we ever have had on this planet, and people are having more disposable income than ever. Pretty crazy when the news wants you to think people are worse off than ever. What is the end result? You can "make new ports," but you can also make new cities, and how is that working?

 

It's been a pretty smart trend for the cruise lines to start investing into their own islands. There are only so many existing places you can go when you factor in logistics, governments, and even cities in demand. Although that trend can only go so far. The "cookie-cutter" approach of new islands is only going to fill so many needs. People are still going to want to go to the high-demand ports. I shudder to think how they look in the future

[iancal]

We are going on an six week European land trip next month.  It is not uncommon for us to travel a little longer and to pick up a last minute cruise at some point during our travels.

 

This time, we did not even bother shopping in earnest.  We started to look at the itineraries and got turned off.  Same ports,  Same limited time in each port.  Normally by now we would have  been following pricing on one or two itineraries, three of four ships.  Absolutely no interest in Dubrovnic, Santorini, Mykonos, or Venice cruise hoardes any more.   We do not see an end to it since the cruise ships are getting even larger.  Seems to me the cruise lines with smaller ships and unique itineraries have a good market niche.

[clo]

5 minutes ago, iancal said:

Same ports,  Same limited time in each port. 

Here's our upcoming itinerary.  And the ports are why we chose it.  We wanted to begin in Rio and end in BA and didn't know if such a cruise existed.  We've been to Buzios and will return to a super Italian! place.  We know that if we do any future cruise they will be determined by the ports.  And agree with you.  We would never return to Dubrovnik or Santorini.  Thanks for your comments.

 

 

DAY	PORT	ARRIVE	DEPART
Dec 7 Sat	Rio de Janeiro, Brazil	Embark 1 PM
Dec 8 Sun	Rio de Janeiro, Brazil		8 PM
Dec 9 Mon	Buzios, Brazil	8 AM	6 PM
Dec 10 Tue	Ilha Grande, Brazil	8 AM	6 PM
Dec 11 Wed	Parati, Brazil	8 AM	6 PM
Dec 12 Thu	Sao Paulo (Santos), Brazil	8 AM	6 PM
Dec 13 Fri	Porto Belo, Brazil	9 AM	6 PM
Dec 14 Sat	Cruising the Atlantic Ocean
Dec 15 Sun	Rio Grande, Brazil	8 AM	4 PM
Dec 16 Mon	Punta Del Este, Uruguay	9 AM	6 PM
Dec 17 Tue	Montevideo, Uruguay	8 AM	6 PM
Dec 18 Wed	Buenos Aires, Argentina	8 AM
Dec 19 Thu	Buenos Aires, Argentina

[iancal]

The last cruise that we booked in advance was similar.  BA to Santiago around the horn.    It was one of the few times that we have built an extended winter trip around a cruise.  It was was wonderful.  But even then, we spent lots of extra time in Uruguay, BA, and Chile before and after the cruise.

 

We have even stopped looking at Caribbean cruises in favour of spending time in places like Costa Rica, Panama, or Mexico.  There is only so many times you can visit some of those Caribbean ports before they all start to look and feel the same.   Plus, we are not shoppers so no interest in buying jewelry, watches, perfumes, or misc. trash and trinkets.

Edited August 3, 2019 by iancal

[ducklite]

On 7/5/2019 at 10:33 AM, cruisemom42 said:

 

It is still possible, with planning, to cruise and not run into huge crowds. As recently as two years ago I cruised on a 350 passenger ship to the Adriatic and Greek isles and (due to careful research) we were the only ship in Santorini on a lovely mid-April day until around 2pm when one other ship (not a huge one either) arrived.

 

September, IMO is almost the same as June-August these days with so many ships not leaving the Med until well into October.

We were there on the WindSurf--which was not at full capacity with a 221 (IIR) passenger load that trip and the only other ship in port with us that day was the L'Austral which had around the same number of guests on board.  

 

At some point maybe two hours before we were departing, a Pullmantur ship pulled into the caldera and started to belch out passengers.  They were less than halfway through getting everyone off as we were leaving, and we passed another large ship coming in as we were pulling out.  I can't imagine being on a ship like those and needing to tender and then wait for the gondola to get into town.  By the time you got anywhere you'd have to turn around and get back on the ship--because it would take as long to re-board as it did to unload to begin with--longer when they were trying to tender both of those giant boats.

 

[evandbob]

We're doing a 2 week So. American cruise as well, but totaling avoiding Rio.  We start in Buenos Aires, cruise south around Cape Horn,  up through the Chilean Fjords and ending in Santiago, Chile. We chose to do the w/b as the time changes of gaining an hour work better for us.

 

We had gone to Tahiti twice before they started building those gigantic 4 Seasons and St Regis resorts.  Those 2 Bora Bora visits remain our best travel highlight.  We had ported in Venice 7 years ago when locals were beginning to voice louder criticisms of day cruisers, and a few months ago witnessed the tourists' crowds in Barcelona.  Two years ago, we spent over a month split between Australia and New Zealand, which didn't seem overrun with tourists yet.  Nor did the Cook Islands

 

We'll do a Norway fjords as well, maybe Galapagos which is already suffering from over visitation, and perhaps an African safari before old age will hamper our travels.

 

I know we are part of the issue and we try our best to enjoy places that are not yet suffering from over tourism.  Even at home in SWFL, I'll look to fish at an isolated beach rather than the local fishing pier.  Last year's devastating red tide and toxic blue/green algae here was definitely caused by over whelming population concentrations,  septic tanks, mismanagement of water resources, over fertilization of farms, golf courses and lawns,  and Army Corps of Engineers outdated "technology".

[clo]

49 minutes ago, evandbob said:

We're doing a 2 week So. American cruise as well, but totaling avoiding Rio.  We start in Buenos Aires, cruise south around Cape Horn,  up through the Chilean Fjords and ending in Santiago, Chile. We chose to do the w/b as the time changes of gaining an hour work better for us.

We did a Patagonia land tour last year and then a Hurtigruten cruise from Punta Arenas, Chilean fjords, Antarctica, Falkland Islands and Santiago.  We adore Rio and used to have an apt. there.  We'll be there a couple of day pre and look forward to visiting fave places and people.  I think cruising is going to be quite limited for us.  But finding port-intensive trips with, as you say, pre and post time.

[Luckiestmanonearth]

As for the idea building of building new ports to lessen the load of existing ports, the main objection from me is that I wouldn’t want a lot of new “faux” ports like Amber Cove or Costa Maya

[Tom47]

I have only been to Costa Maya once, but I was able to book a ship tour to Mayan Chachoban ruins, which I enjoyed.  DW went to the beach with DSIL   for a massage.   DB stayed with them--no massage, just drank beer.

[lenquixote66]

15 hours ago, ontheweb said:

We won't be there that day (Ringo Starr headlining), but will be at Bethel Woods on Saturday (Santana back on the 50th anniversary of their breakout performance at Woodstock with the Doobie Brothers opening.)

 

Our son is the head of parking and transportation there. He told me that the reason that they have bands those afternoons is that they hope it prevents everyone from trying to come at the same time. Saturday, Santana is sold out. The other two days will also be large concerts. (Sunday has John Fogarty with the Tedeschi Trucks Band also on the program.)

Unfortunately we cannot come that weekend as we have a family baby naming.

[navybankerteacher]

On 7/4/2019 at 8:28 PM, iancal said:

That may be so but last time I checked Carnival Corp and RCI were not in the social responsibility group.  Strictly focused on maximizing shareholder value.

Back on topic: Carnival Corp and RCI, plus NCL, are all mass-market providers (certainly with their large ship units).  The last thing potentially threatened areas need is to be opened up to frequent visits by ships carrying thousands of passengers.  Why ruin more once beautiful places?

 

The fact is, the smaller lines (including subsidiaries of the above big three) do make virtually every port of likely interest available -  so there is no need for lines to “mix up their itineraries” any more.  So many of the areas they have already added to their mix have lost much of what made them worth adding in the first place.

[ldubs]

12 hours ago, iancal said:

We are going on an six week European land trip next month.  It is not uncommon for us to travel a little longer and to pick up a last minute cruise at some point during our travels.

 

This time, we did not even bother shopping in earnest.  We started to look at the itineraries and got turned off.  Same ports,  Same limited time in each port.  Normally by now we would have  been following pricing on one or two itineraries, three of four ships.  Absolutely no interest in Dubrovnic, Santorini, Mykonos, or Venice cruise hoardes any more.   We do not see an end to it since the cruise ships are getting even larger.  Seems to me the cruise lines with smaller ships and unique itineraries have a good market niche.

 

We were in Santorini for the first time this past April.  No crowds at all which was a surprise to us.  There were only a handful of people at any of the the vista/photo spots.   Based on all the comments about crowding there I think we lucked out.   

[Donald]

Mnocket,

You have some very idealistic and honorable-sounding ideas.

A few of them are realistic; most of them will never happen.

You clearly have no experience working in the cruise industry.

 

After 37 years of Corporate and Onboard Cruise Management, I can't help but laugh at some of the assumptions you have made. You might want to do a bit more research that could help you to understand why it is that cruise lines do the things we do.

[slidergirl]

On 7/5/2019 at 7:19 PM, clo said:

Thanks so much for this.  I'm going to share with "the kids."  Do you do any climbing?  You might enjoy "The Dirtbag Diaries." And their outdoor films "Duct Tape Then Beer."

Yes, Bear Ears is one of the monuments the current regime decided to decimate, despite the joint agreement of the Native American tribes in the area and the government to preserve as much sacred area as they originally did.  Now, the current regime has split it into two much, much smaller pieces and has started to process to allow extractive mining and fracking in the area, destroying beautiful landscape and lands considered sacred to the local tribes.  All because someone didn't like that the previous administration created the monument with massive input from the Native Americans and outdoor enthusiasts.

Kind of like deciding to open up new ports to massive cruise ships to dump it's guests for a few hours and make money.  Damn to saving and preserving pristine areas for future generations...

[Extra Kim]

The chairman of RCI said that 3% of the Americans and even less of the Europeans have been on a cruise. Think about it, 229,040,000 Americans have never cruised. Even if all of the Americans that have cruised before said, "We are done going to the same ports of call, we won't cruise again!", they still have a lot of potential customers in the U.S...

[iancal]

We enjoyed cruising when I was working.  We could get away for a week or two, no phones or internet , and not have to think about anything.  DW said it was one of the few times that I relaxed. It took a day or two so we would typically fly to the port two days in advance and for my wind down time.

 

Now in retirement....not so much. We find cruising limiting and far too organized.    We now opt for independent travel, often quite spontaneous.  Sometimes we add in a last minute cruise just for a change or to get some R&R from independent travel.   But we no longer look at the adverts etc and consider booking in advance.  Our attitude is if we snag one fine if not that is also fine.

 

I looked at adding a Med cruise to our travels next month.  It came down to a cruise or a side trip to Cyprus for twelve days.  Cyprus won hands down.  No contest.   Just the difference in food would lead us to that decision, let alone the other considerations. Not to mention the rest...crowds, limited time in port, etc.

Edited August 4, 2019 by iancal

[clo]

1 hour ago, iancal said:

Not to mention the rest...crowds, limited time in port, etc.

We did a few cruises 15-20 years ago and weren't real impressed.  The ubiquitous Caribbean, Alaska and repositioning.  We're mostly happier doing our own thing.  There are exceptions.  For instance Antarctica which can only be done via cruise.  And the Norwegian coast.  In December Rio to Buenos Aires.  I don't see us doing a whole lot of cruising...until such time if we have mobility issues.