Ship departs Port without Parents, What Happens to Child on-board!?

[clo]

Just now, brillohead said:

the doctors aren't going to let your kid just die because they don't have you there to sign a form.  

Exactly.  They'll keep him/her alive at any cost (and I don't mean $$$) regardless of the quality of life later.  

[brillohead]

2 minutes ago, clo said:

There are decisions for instance like save the life and have someone be comatose for the rest of their life.  Should a limb be amputated and what are the alternatives.  I have a ton of medical background and there are simply times that it's not black or white.  Countless other examples.

 

1 minute ago, clo said:

Exactly.  They'll keep him/her alive at any cost (and I don't mean $$$) regardless of the quality of life later.  

If a limb needs to be amputated, it either needs to be done emergently (would be done if parents are there or not) or can wait a few hours until the parents return.  

If someone's life is saved but they are a vegetable, the parents can refuse to insert a feeding tube and that will be taken care of in due time. 

 

Unless it's a fatal injury in the first place, there is no way of knowing for certain if a brain injury is going to result in X, Y, or Z amount of dysfunction after recuperation.  

Doctors and nurses aren't given a magic crystal ball when we're given our licenses.  We just do the best we can and hope for the best outcome, but there are no guarantees in life.  And especially with children, we try EVERYTHING to get a good outcome.  

Do you really think that there are parents who will say they don't want us to try to save the child's life if there's a possible chance that the child won't be 100% functional after treatment???  I pity your kids...

 

[Katyoparty]

5 minutes ago, clo said:

I don't shock easily but these responses are honestly blowing my mind.  Does the cruise line have you fill out a power of attorney for medical care for the child?

You know I don't think we did anything different than any other time going ashore. Our son had been in the kids club previously when he wanted to be there for a couple of hours here and there.  So I'm sure we signed whatever waivers were required for that. Our older son went to the teens coffee house on ship when he wanted. I would agree that times have changed over 20 years and the world is infinitely more crazy now.

[clo]

13 minutes ago, brillohead said:

Do you really think that there are parents who will say they don't want us to try to save the child's life if there's a possible chance that the child won't be 100% functional after treatment??? 

Again, you're talking black or white.  I don't know about you but WE have a very, very detailed durable power of attorney for medical care.  So you're a doctor or nurse?  I'm surprised you don't understand this.  As I've said, little shocks me but this does.

[brillohead]

7 minutes ago, clo said:

Again, you're talking black or white.  I don't know about you but WE have a very, very detailed durable power of attorney for medical care.  So you're a doctor or nurse?  I'm surprised you don't understand this.  As I've said, little shocks me but this does.

And I'm a huge proponent of making sure you have all the paperwork in place and a patient advocate who understands EXACTLY what you would or would not want done... but most of those things pertain to LONG-TERM CARE, not emergency decisions.

For example, my mom had a stroke last winter.  I am her patient advocate, and we've had extensive discussions about how she does and does not want her life to pan out.  Initially, things did not look good with the stroke, but as time went on her recovery was close to 100%. 

 

Had things continued to not look good, we would not have agreed to insert a feeding tube, and she would have passed away.  However, the decision to insert a feeding tube is not one that needs to be made in the first few hours of treatment, or even the first few days of treatment.  

All the things you're talking about are things that the parents can make decisions about a couple hours later -- all the emergency decisions can be made by the appropriate medical personnel until the child is stabilized enough for someone to take the time to sit the parents down and explain the options at that time.  

Remember, these are parents going ashore for a few hours -- not taking a two-month hike through the Himalayas. 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, brillohead said:

I left my son on board a Princess ship while his father and I rode scooters around St. Maarten.  My son was 4yo and totally enamored with the kids club.  

The island is small, and we kept track of the time and were back well in advance of all-aboard.  We had a great day, and he had a great day -- isn't that what a vacation is all about?  

Are you kidding ?

[brillohead]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

Are you kidding ?

Not at all.  

How is it any different than leaving him at a friend's house or with a sitter while we went out for "date night"?

 

[navybankerteacher]

6 hours ago, DarrenM said:

If its noticed early enough I believe the children are thrown overboard, as long as they can swim.

I believe SOLAS provisions require that they would be fitted with life jackets first - the cost of which being naturally added to the parents’ on board account.

[navybankerteacher]

Just now, brillohead said:

Not at all.  

How is it any different than leaving him at a friend's house or with a sitter while we went out for "date night"?

 

If you cannot see any difference I do not believe we can have an intelligent conversation.

[brillohead]

Just now, navybankerteacher said:

If you cannot see any difference I do not believe we can have an intelligent conversation.

People have been leaving their children to be cared for by non-parents for millennia.  This is hardly anything new -- why does the fact that it's happening on a cruise make it so much different?

[navybankerteacher]

2 minutes ago, brillohead said:

People have been leaving their children to be cared for by non-parents for millennia.  This is hardly anything new -- why does the fact that it's happening on a cruise make it so much different?

Context counts.

[clo]

6 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

If you cannot see any difference I do not believe we can have an intelligent conversation.

Oh my dear.  Thanks for understanding what was so clear to me.  

Edited July 10, 2019 by clo

[Essiesmom]

The question of leaving kids in the club when you go ashore is asked often on the Family Cruising board.  I believe there is one line that requires parents to be on a ship sponsored tour.  Others not.  But we have essentially strayed from the original question...EM

[clo]

1 minute ago, Essiesmom said:

But we have essentially strayed from the original question...EM

And I think that straying has brought up something that needs to be discussed wherever it shows up.

[brillohead]

9 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Context counts.

Then spell it out.  Because it doesn't make sense to me.

If I die on an excursion, you want my kid to be with me so he dies too?   

[clo]

3 minutes ago, brillohead said:

If I die on an excursion, you want my kid to be with me so he dies too?   

Now wait a minute.  As a parent, haven't you scaled back the risks you used to take?  One of our daughters and her husband are rock climbers and backcountry skiers.  Big time.  But since they became parents seven years ago they've scaled it back.  You haven't?

[SantaFeFan]

12 minutes ago, brillohead said:

Then spell it out.  Because it doesn't make sense to me.

If I die on an excursion, you want my kid to be with me so he dies too?   

 

6 minutes ago, clo said:

Now wait a minute.  As a parent, haven't you scaled back the risks you used to take?  One of our daughters and her husband are rock climbers and backcountry skiers.  Big time.  But since they became parents seven years ago they've scaled it back.  You haven't?

 

I guess he apparently expects his kid to also have a heart attack if he has one. Or to jump off the cliff that he falls off of it. Quite the closely bonded family if one dies, then the others must die as well. 🙄

[brillohead]

11 minutes ago, clo said:

Now wait a minute.  As a parent, haven't you scaled back the risks you used to take?  One of our daughters and her husband are rock climbers and backcountry skiers.  Big time.  But since they became parents seven years ago they've scaled it back.  You haven't?

Well, a parent dying while ashore is about the only thing I can think of that would affect anything (and even then, I don't know how it would be any different if the parent died on the ship or while ashore)????

WHY is it such a big deal to go ashore without the kid?  

The kid is actually SAFER on the ship, in all likelihood, rather than being exposed to the crazy driving that often happens on Caribbean islands.

Y'all say that "context counts" but I have yet to see an actual example of that given.  

How is it any better to leave the kid with a teenaged babysitter at home with no medical facility versus leaving the kid with college-educated adults on the ship with a medical facility and staffed medical personnel?

[clo]

2 minutes ago, brillohead said:

How is it any better to leave the kid with a teenaged babysitter at home with no medical facility versus leaving the kid with college-educated adults on the ship with a medical facility and staffed medical personnel?

I'm assuming that when you leave 'the kid' with a babysitter that you're a cell phone call away.  That you can get home or to the ER quickly.  Regarding "college-educated adults" how does that help?  I was someplace a couple of days ago when a man fainted and was sweating profusely.  No one knew what to do except for me.  He and I lay on the floor together (he was on top of me) and i soothed him verbally until the paramedics arrived.  And I would sure not want to depend on the ship's "medical facility and staffed medical personnel".  I'm not going to say "ergo."

[FlyerTalker]

You know those television commercials with the obnoxious squealing kids?  Well, cruiselines rely on centuries-old laws on piracy and sell those left behind kids to a life of indentured servitude with unscrupulous talent agents.

[navybankerteacher]

13 minutes ago, brillohead said:

Well, a parent dying while ashore is about the only thing I can think of that would affect anything (and even then, I don't know how it would be any different if the parent died on the ship or while ashore)????

WHY is it such a big deal to go ashore without the kid?  

The kid is actually SAFER on the ship, in all likelihood, rather than being exposed to the crazy driving that often happens on Caribbean islands.

Y'all say that "context counts" but I have yet to see an actual example of that given.  

How is it any better to leave the kid with a teenaged babysitter at home with no medical facility versus leaving the kid with college-educated adults on the ship with a medical facility and staffed medical personnel?

As I mentioned above, given such divergent concepts, I do not believe we can have an intelligent conversation —- I am out of here.

[brillohead]

7 minutes ago, clo said:

I'm assuming that when you leave 'the kid' with a babysitter that you're a cell phone call away.  That you can get home or to the ER quickly.  Regarding "college-educated adults" how does that help?  I was someplace a couple of days ago when a man fainted and was sweating profusely.  No one knew what to do except for me.  He and I lay on the floor together (he was on top of me) and i soothed him verbally until the paramedics arrived.  And I would sure not want to depend on the ship's "medical facility and staffed medical personnel".  I'm not going to say "ergo."

Cell phones are a relatively new invention in the grand scheme of things.  Back when my son was little, they weren't commonplace like they are now.  

One would hope that an adult with training in first aid and child development is going to handle things better than a teenager with no training.  

And if you don't trust the medical facility and staff on a ship, why are you going on the ship????

 

None of what you're saying makes sense....

[brillohead]

3 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

As I mentioned above, given such divergent concepts, I do not believe we can have an intelligent conversation —- I am out of here.

Or, rather, you cannot give an example, and so are leaving the conversation.  Fair enough.  It's obvious that we aren't communicating on each other's level.

[clo]

1 minute ago, brillohead said:

Cell phones are a relatively new invention in the grand scheme of things.  Back when my son was little, they weren't commonplace like they are now.  

One would hope that an adult with training in first aid and child development is going to handle things better than a teenager with no training.  

And if you don't trust the medical facility and staff on a ship, why are you going on the ship????

 

None of what you're saying makes sense....

In my opinion, dear, you don't make sense.

 

But when you went out, didn't you sitter know where you were going and how to reach you?  

 

Someone here corrected someone else as to the qualifications of the medical staff.  But I wasn't even talking about the ship medical staff. But rather the port medical facilities.

 

 

[brillohead]

1 minute ago, clo said:

In my opinion, dear, you don't make sense.

 

But when you went out, didn't you sitter know where you were going and how to reach you?  

 

Someone here corrected someone else as to the qualifications of the medical staff.  But I wasn't even talking about the ship medical staff. But rather the port medical facilities.

Ever try to phone a movie theater?  The only number in the phone book (yes, I'm old enough to remember when those existed, too) was the recording that gave the movie times -- there was no way to call and have them go find someone.  Lots of other situations like that, too, even in this day and age of cell phones (wanna piss off a judge?  keep your cell phone turned on in court!).  

 

As for the medical facilities in the port itself, I have no idea what bearing that has on the subject?  The parent being present or not isn't going to change the medical care that is available to the child, unless the parent is a physician specializing in whatever is wrong with the child (and even then, you're not supposed to provide medical care for family members, plus a visiting physician doesn't have privileges in the island's hospital).  

This whole thing has gotten very convoluted.  

Kids that are happy at the kids club and parents who are happy to leave their happy child at the kids club = everyone is happy.