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21 minutes ago, SinbadThePorter said:

 

Lest anyone think there is something to this, it is actually what is termed unsubstantiated speculation.

 

There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that the original settlers of New Zealand were not Polynesians. If you want to quibble over whether all the Polynesian migrations to NZ were Maori, or that only one particular Polynesian migration was actually Maori, that's what you are doing, quibbling.

Check the Museum if you don't believe me.

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Wow, where did all this aggressive posts come from? What started as a friendly discussion has turned into a nasty, 'my country is better than yours' tirade. Come on, we're all better than some of these posts present. 

 

Back to discussing cruising topics and help each other and provide  advice about our countries to those who ask for it.

 

Leigh

Edited by possum52
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1 hour ago, brian1 said:

We had all this before we discovered you lot,lol.

 

Arrived, not discovered 😜. Half the world already knew of the land down under before the first Brit set foot. And where has all this aggression come from? Can't we disagree without getting all bitter? I love a good discussion but some of these posts are starting to feel like trolling😥

 

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41 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Arrived, not discovered 😜. Half the world already knew of the land down under before the first Brit set foot. And where has all this aggression come from? Can't we disagree without getting all bitter? I love a good discussion but some of these posts are starting to feel like trolling😥

 

Oh dear,that's the problem with online forums.Things get taken the wrong way,it was a joke and a windup.Ask Uncle Les,he'll vouch for me.Les,Les,are you there, help,lol.

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2 minutes ago, brian1 said:

Oh dear,that's the problem with online forums.Things get taken the wrong way,it was a joke and a windup.Ask Uncle Les,he'll vouch for me.Les,Les,are you there, help,lol.

Yep just a Pom having a stir I’d say

 

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2 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

Yep just a Pom having a stir I’d say

 

Cheers,perhaps I'll stick with the meat pies.I was just saying we were indigenous once and got wiped out a few times.But we're still here,lol.

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23 hours ago, brian1 said:

Cheers,perhaps I'll stick with the meat pies.I was just saying we were indigenous once and got wiped out a few times.But we're still here,lol.

Yeah but indigenous people can be a touchy subject for some

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5 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

Yeah but indigenous people can be a touchy subject for some

That's OK.The remnants of Ancient Pom are now French(Brittany),Welsh and Cornish and they don't like Modern Pom much either,lol.

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On 8/4/2019 at 2:54 PM, possum52 said:

Wow, where did all this aggressive posts come from? What started as a friendly discussion has turned into a nasty, 'my country is better than yours' tirade. Come on, we're all better than some of these posts present. 

 

Back to discussing cruising topics and help each other and provide  advice about our countries to those who ask for it.

 

Leigh

If you have been on here for a while a few months ago, I think it was March after a certain incident in Christchurch, the same member on here from the same country launched a massive attack against Australians and then made a massive attack against the cruise lines for not making any mention of it. All of their posts were removed from the site. They seem to have some sort of an agenda. Thankfully for us we still have Mr Dutton in Parliament who is likely to raise their blood pressure ten fold when his name is mentioned let alone held in high esteem.

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On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 9:52 PM, Brisbane41 said:

If you have been on here for a while a few months ago, I think it was March after a certain incident in Christchurch, the same member on here from the same country launched a massive attack against Australians and then made a massive attack against the cruise lines for not making any mention of it. All of their posts were removed from the site. They seem to have some sort of an agenda. Thankfully for us we still have Mr Dutton in Parliament who is likely to raise their blood pressure ten fold when his name is mentioned let alone held in high esteem.

I joined a cruise ship in Auckland the day after Christchurch and whilst travelling to Auckland on the train the day of Christchurch I received many many txts and messages of support from Cruise Critic members and others and again more on the day of embarkation. When NZ stopped for two minutes silence so did the crew and passengers of the Celebrity Solstice at the same time. It deeply moving to know that we were not alone in the most horrific act of terrorism ever experienced in our country. The fact that the terrorist was caught minutes after the massacre was a tribute to our Police. We never then and don't today hold the country where this terrorist came from responsible for his actions.

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7 hours ago, Beanb41 said:

I joined a cruise ship in Auckland the day after Christchurch and whilst travelling to Auckland on the train the day of Christchurch I received many many txts and messages of support from Cruise Critic members and others and again more on the day of embarkation. When NZ stopped for two minutes silence so did the crew and passengers of the Celebrity Solstice at the same time. It deeply moving to know that we were not alone in the most horrific act of terrorism ever experienced in our country. The fact that the terrorist was caught minutes after the massacre was a tribute to our Police. We never then and don't today hold the country where this terrorist came from responsible for his actions.

Well your tune has certainly changed since then and your now deleted replies bashing the cruise lines for not mentioning it and attacking Australians for absolutely no reason at all. Personally I have not read a single news article about it or bothered to watch an news reports on it. I vaguely know what happened but just couldn't be bothered paying any attention. Couldn't be bothered with minutes of silence or memorials, my life just went on as per normal and I filtered all of it out and paid no attention to it. Much like the cruise lines that made no statement which you found offensive.

 

By the way more people have died this year as a result of measles and the fake news and disinformation about vaccines. It is reprehensible that social media, free speech laws and society in general permits this sort of extremist views distorting truth, glosses over it, makes no mention of it while the mass media focuses on your Port Arthur and nothing but just another Martin. So far you have had 195 road deaths this year. Measles deaths worldwide is on the hundreds of thousands mainly thanks to misinformation about vaccines for something that was almost eradicated.

 

Where is your deeply moving minutes of silence for all the road victims and measles fatalities. The truth is the majority of people simply do not care. What you did with your posts that were deleted were nothing but offensive.

 

You even had another go at trying to bring it up again in post number#36. Personally I had not given it a second thought and really did not appreciate seeing it again from the same person who posted all that vitriol before that was quickly deleted.

 

Don't you dare make snide remarks again like you did in post #36 and expect people not to notice and take offence. I knew what you were up to.

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On 8/4/2019 at 11:33 AM, Russell21 said:

Nice of you to get on your high horse re our indigenous people. Most people would assume that the Maori people would be the indigenous people of New Zealand, WRONG! There was an indigenous population in New Zealand when the Polynesians (Maori) arrived but they proceeded to wipe them out. If you doubt this then Go to the Te Papa museum in Wellington where quite a bit of floor space is devoted to this very subject.

I am sorry to say, but you are not correct. The people you are probably referring to are the Moriori people who were also Polynesians. They did not pre-date the Maori, they arrived after them. Historians believe they arrived between the Archaic to Classic periods of Māori culture. It's believed that they were later displaced from the main NZ islands to the Chatham Islands. Later Maori invaded the Chatham Islands and effectively wiped them out. For more detail, here is a 'cut and paste' from a website explaining the Moriori people.

 

Quote -

The Moriori are the indigenous Polynesian people of the Chatham Islands (Rēkohu in Moriori, Wharekauri in Māori), New Zealand. Moriori originated from Māori settlers from the New Zealand mainland around the year 1500.[2] This was near the time of the shift from the Archaic to Classic Māori culture on the main islands of New Zealand.[3][4] Oral tradition records multiple waves of migration to the Chatham Islands.[5][6] Over several centuries these settlers' culture diverged from mainland Māori, developing a distinctive dialect, mythology, artistic expression and way of life.[7]

Early Moriori formed tribal groups based on eastern Polynesian social customs and organisation; later, a prominent pacifist culture emerged (see Nunuku-whenua).[8] This culture made it easier for Taranaki Māori invaders to nearly exterminate them in the 1830s during the Musket Wars.[9] Currently there are around 700 people who identify as Moriori, most of whom no longer live on the Chatham Islands.[10]

 

During the late 19th century some prominent anthropologists proposed that Moriori were pre-Māori settlers of mainland New Zealand, and possibly Melanesian in origin.[11] This hypothesis was taught in New Zealand’s schools for most of the 20th century, long after it had fallen from favour among academics.

 

The Moriori are ethnically Polynesian. They developed a distinct Moriori culture in the Chatham Islands as they adapted to local conditions. Although speculation once suggested that they settled the Chatham Islands directly from the tropical Polynesian islands, current research indicates that ancestral Moriori were Māori Polynesians who emigrated to the Chatham Islands from mainland New Zealand around 1500.

 

As a small and precarious population, Moriori embraced a pacifist culture that rigidly avoided warfare, replacing it with dispute resolution in the form of ritual fighting and conciliation.[22] The ban on warfare and cannibalism is attributed to their ancestor Nunuku-whenua.

 

In 1835 some displaced Ngāti Mutunga and Ngāti Tama, from the Taranaki region, but living in Wellington, invaded the Chathams. On 19 November 1835, the brig Lord Rodney, a hijacked[30] European ship, arrived carrying 500 Māori (men, women and children) with guns, clubs and axes, and loaded with 78 tonnes of potatoes for planting, followed by another load, by the same ship, of 400 more Māori on 5 December 1835. Before the second shipment of people arrived, the invaders killed a 12-year-old girl and hung her flesh on posts.[31] They proceeded to enslave some Moriori and kill and cannibalise others. With the arrival of the second group "parties of warriors armed with muskets, clubs and tomahawks, led by their chiefs, walked through Moriori tribal territories and settlements without warning, permission or greeting. If the districts were wanted by the invaders, they curtly informed the inhabitants that their land had been taken and the Moriori living there were now vassals."[32]

A hui or council of Moriori elders was convened at the settlement called Te Awapatiki. Despite knowing of the Māori predilection for warfare, and despite the admonition by some of the elder chiefs that the principle of Nunuku was not appropriate now, two chiefs — Tapata and Torea — declared that "the law of Nunuku was not a strategy for survival, to be varied as conditions changed; it was a moral imperative."[32] Although this council decided in favour of peace, the invading Māori inferred it was a prelude to war, as was common practice during the Musket Wars. This precipitated a massacre, most complete in the Waitangi area followed by an enslavement of the Morori survivors.[33]

A Moriori survivor recalled : "[The Māori] commenced to kill us like sheep.... [We] were terrified, fled to the bush, concealed ourselves in holes underground, and in any place to escape our enemies. It was of no avail; we were discovered and killed – men, women and children indiscriminately." A Māori conqueror explained, "We took possession... in accordance with our customs and we caught all the people. Not one escaped....." [34] The invaders ritually killed some 10% of the population, a ritual that included staking out women and children on the beach and leaving them to die in great pain over several days.[35]

During the following enslavement the Māori invaders forbade the speaking of the Moriori language. They forced Moriori to desecrate their sacred sites by urinating and defecating on them.[35] Moriori were forbidden to marry Moriori or Māori, or to have children with each other. Which was different from the customary form of slavery practiced on mainland New Zealand.[36] However, many Moriori women had children by their Māori masters. A small number of Moriori women eventually married either Māori or European men. Some were taken from the Chathams and never returned. In 1842 a small party of Māori and their Moriori slaves migrated to the subantarctic Auckland Islands, surviving for some 20 years on sealing and flax growing.[37] Only 101 Moriori out of a population of about 2,000 were left alive by 1862.[38

Edited by Aus Traveller
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3 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

I am sorry to say, but you are not correct.

 

He is definitely not correct, but what I think he has gotten confused by at the Te Papa is the Maori mythology surrounding the patupaiarehe, heketoro and the turehu. These are essentially fairy spirits who are described in different ways by different tribes but tend to be seen as small, pale trouble makers. Kind of like leprechauns.

 

Some non-historians have used such myths and some skerricks of evidence like rock carvings that look vaguely Celtic, to argue that the original inhabitants of NZ were the Irish, or sometimes the Romans or even the Egyptians. Who were then killed off by the fearsome Maori.

 

Hence the Treaty of Waitangi is therefore not valid and all the hand wringing over the land and sea rights of Maori is pointless.

 

As you can see such a point of view is very convenient for those of a particular political disposition.

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10 minutes ago, SinbadThePorter said:

 

He is definitely not correct, but what I think he has gotten confused by at the Te Papa is the Maori mythology surrounding the patupaiarehe, heketoro and the turehu. These are essentially fairy spirits who are described in different ways by different tribes but tend to be seen as small, pale trouble makers. Kind of like leprechauns.

 

Some non-historians have used such myths and some skerricks of evidence like rock carvings that look vaguely Celtic, to argue that the original inhabitants of NZ were the Irish, or sometimes the Romans or even the Egyptians. Who were then killed off by the fearsome Maori.

 

Hence the Treaty of Waitangi is therefore not valid and all the hand wringing over the land and sea rights of Maori is pointless.

 

As you can see such a point of view is very convenient for those of a particular political disposition.

That theory is indeed 'way-out'. 🙂 Whereas, the Moriori as the first inhabitants has been proven incorrect as more evidence has proven the timelines.

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Well all I can say is that both the wife and I read at the Te Papa museum that the Moriori were the original inhabitants and were wiped out when the Maori arrived around 1200AD, admittedly it was some years ago that we were there.

Edited by Russell21
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5 minutes ago, Russell21 said:

Well Te Papa needs to be corrected then, because they give a very strong message contradicting what you are saying.

 

If you feel that the Moriori people were the original inhabitants, this contradicts what you said earlier about the original people being non-Polynesian. Or do you support the Celtic (or Roman or Egyptian) version mentioned by 'SinbadThePorter'? Just curious.

Edited by Aus Traveller
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6 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

If you feel that the Moriori people were the original inhabitants, this contradicts what you said earlier about the original people being non-Polynesian. Or do you support the Celtic (or Roman or Egyptian) version mentioned by 'SinbadThePorter'? Just curious.

If you care to research further you will find support for what I originally said still hold sway with some academics, in fact there is evidence that this version was printed in text books up until relatively recently. Not being important enough to argue further seeing as the how even the academics can't agree on the matter. 

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15 minutes ago, Russell21 said:

If you care to research further you will find support for what I originally said still hold sway with some academics, in fact there is evidence that this version was printed in text books up until relatively recently. Not being important enough to argue further seeing as the how even the academics can't agree on the matter. 

In your original post you said:

 

Most people would assume that the Maori people would be the indigenous people of New Zealand, WRONG! There was an indigenous population in New Zealand when the Polynesians (Maori) arrived but they proceeded to wipe them out.

 

I don't think people who believe the Moriori people were the original inhabitants, think they were other than Polynesian.

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2 hours ago, SinbadThePorter said:

 

He is definitely not correct, but what I think he has gotten confused by at the Te Papa is the Maori mythology surrounding the patupaiarehe, heketoro and the turehu. These are essentially fairy spirits who are described in different ways by different tribes but tend to be seen as small, pale trouble makers. Kind of like leprechauns.

 

Some non-historians have used such myths and some skerricks of evidence like rock carvings that look vaguely Celtic, to argue that the original inhabitants of NZ were the Irish, or sometimes the Romans or even the Egyptians. Who were then killed off by the fearsome Maori.

 

Hence the Treaty of Waitangi is therefore not valid and all the hand wringing over the land and sea rights of Maori is pointless.

 

As you can see such a point of view is very convenient for those of a particular political disposition.

ROMANS,they had trouble rowing to us.Imagine a galley slave being told,he's got to row to NZ this morning.

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