Am I Violating the Jones Act?

[gerelmx]

I'm on a B2B2B booked since December 2017 and paid in full the 3 legs. Ship Celebrity Eclipse

1st Leg Sept 22 Vancouver to Honolulu

2nd Leg Oct 3 Honolulu to Vancouver

3rd Leg Oct 13 Vancouver to Los Angeles

 

My TA just receive a email from Celebrity with a note that the Jones's law is violated.

 

This is the head of the email

I hope you are very well in your daily work, the reason for this email is to notify you that bk 3^rd leg is violating Jones law, because passengers would be arriving from Honolulu in bk bk 2^nd leg on October 13, and that same would be leaving for Los Angeles, California. Because the cruise ship would be sailing from a port that belongs to another country, that's when Jones's law is violated. etc etc-

 

They are not taking into account the first leg, Why do they do this to me after 2 years of having booked my vacations and have already paid 100% of the 3 cruises?

 

[spencerdrivecruiser]

If you leave from Vancouver which is considered an American Port for some reason since its so close to the border and go to an American Port and back to Vancouver you must disembark the ship.  Cannot go to a USA Port.  Kind of antiquated but thats the Jones Act.  They are 100% correct.  You can go from Honolulu to Vancouver but not onto Alaska.  Not sure why they dont repeal this Act.

[Alakegirl]

Someone is very confused.  The Jones Act deals with cargo, not passengers.

 

so, beyond that, you are boarding in Vancouver and disembarking in Los Angeles.  The PVSA does not apply in your case.  They have made a mistake and you are not in violation.

 

VANCOUVER is in Canada and is not an American port under any circumstances.

 

the OP is not going to Alaska

Edited August 1, 2019 by Alakegirl

[cruisestitch]

Spencerdrivecruiser, Where did you get the idea that Vancouver is considered a US port?

 

You may be getting confused about tacking on a cruise to Alaska after a cruise which begins in Honolulu. That is not allowed. You cannot board the ship in one US port and disembark in a different US port without visiting a distant foreign port in between.  That is true.  But not because Vancouver is in the United States, it’s because Vancouver is not a distant foreign port as defined in the act

 

It also would be a violation of the passenger vessel service act to board in Honolulu, and disembark in Los Angeles. But the OP is not doing that.

 

this poster wishes to board in Vancouver and disembark in Los Angeles. There is no violation of the PVSA here.  

 

And there is certainly no violation of the Jones act, which only deals with cargo, not with passengers.

 

Since the OP is not in the United States, and presumably the travel agent is not in the United States, they may not be as familiar with how the PVSA works.   But someone at Celebrity has blundered by not recognizing that this is a three cruise sequence.  They only looked at the last two cruises and not the first one. The first one is vital in making this itinerary a legal one

Edited August 1, 2019 by cruisestitch

[fleckle]

27 minutes ago, Alakegirl said:

Someone is very confused.  The Jones Act deals with cargo, not passengers. tim

 

so, beyond that, you are boarding in Vancouver and disembarking in Los Angeles.  The PVSA does not apply in your case.  They have made a mistake and you are not in violation.

 

VANCOUVER is in Canada and is not an American port under any circumstances.

 

the OP is not going to Alaska

 

I agree.  If the passenger is initially boarding in Vancouver and the final disembarkation port for the B2B2B cruises is LA, there would be no violation of the PVSA, since you would not be embarking at a US port.

 

My suggestion to gerelmx (the OP) is to refer this matter to Celebrity's Resolutions department as they have dealt with this issue many times before and should be able to get it resolved correctly to your satisfaction .

 

Been there, done that. 😁

 

 

Edited August 1, 2019 by fleckle

[bigbenboys]

Might it something to do with going through US customs in Vancouver at the cruise terminal. I have heard in the past that passengers on the Hawaii cruise disembarked in Victoria and spent the night in a Vancouver hotel. Then the next morning they can continue on a Alaska cruise. 

[Alakegirl]

Those passengers boarded in Hawaii and the OP is boarding in Vancouver.

 

going through C and I before a cruise to Alaska is only a convenience becuase the ports in Alaska are so small and a cruise ship full of passengers is too many to handle there.  

 

That doesn’t make Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada a US location.

[gerelmx]

Celebrity was giving me an option to solve the problem: at the end of the cruise from Honolulu to Vancouver (second stage) Total disembarkation in Vancouver and boarding the next day in Victoria BC. , my travel agent must make a late boarding request in Victoria.

Can you pay a fine instead?

Edited August 1, 2019 by gerelmx

[wrk2cruise]

Shouldn't they consider either each leg as an independent trip OR all 3 legs as 1 trip Vancouver to LA?  Are they proposing covering your hotel and transportation costs since they didn't catch this for 2 years?

[Cruise Junky]

no, you're not violating it. Anything that starts in Vancouver the PVSA doesn't apply. They need to escalate it and have someone that knows what they're talking about deal with it.

[hcat]

Would X put you up in Victoria for the night and cover transportation...?

 

Maybe you could leave  some luggage on board?

 

Hope it works out!

[cachouonacruise]

I find this topic very interesting and confusing at the same time.

 

For future reference, I would be interested in more info on the Jones Act or PVSA.

 

Does it apply only to U.S Citizens or to everyone? 

 

If I understood well you could not board a ship in a U.S State and disembark in the U.S without having stopped at a « distant foreign port »? So cruises from New-York to Miami, or from Honololu to L.A would not be legal unless a stop in « a distant foreign port is made ». 

 

Bermuda, Bahamas etc. would meet the requirement of a distant foreign port? 

 

However, some Canadian ports such as Vancouver would not? 

 

How about Victoria? Montreal or Quebec? In short, how far from the U.S has the port to be, to be considered a distant foreign port? 

 

( I have tried to search this law on line and got hopelessly lost).

 

Thank-you for your help!

 

 

[Cruise Junky]

1 minute ago, cachouonacruise said:

I find this topic very interesting and confusing at the same time.

 

For future reference, I would be interested in more info on the Jones Act or PVSA.

 

Does it apply only to U.S Citizens or to everyone? 

 

If I understood well you could not board a ship in a U.S State and disembark in the U.S without having stopped at a « distant foreign port »? So cruises from New-York to Miami, or from Honololu to L.A would not be legal unless a stop in « a distant foreign port is made ». 

 

Bermuda, Bahamas etc. would meet the requirement of a distant foreign port? 

 

However, some Canadian ports such as Vancouver would not? 

 

How about Victoria? Montreal or Quebec? In short, how far from the U.S has the port to be, to be considered a distant foreign port? 

 

( I have tried to search this law on line and got hopelessly lost).

 

Thank-you for your help!

 

 

There are a couple of parts to the PVSA..... cruises can make closed loop cruises from the same US port...IE..Seattle return and only have to hit a foreign port (VIctoria). But for an open cruise, that starts in one US ports and ends in a different US port.they have to hit a foreign DISTANT port... Columbia works for this on the Panama Canal cruises.  So do the ABC islands.  You'll often see Aruba on a panama itinerary for this. In the OPs case, he's starting his journey not in a US Port, hence no PVSA.

 

 

[cruisestitch]

It applies to everyone. 

 

Bermuda, Bahamas, Vancouver, Victoria and MOST of the islands of the Caribbean are not DISTANT. foreign ports.

 

Aruba, Curaçao and Bonaire ARE distant foreign ports.

 

if you leave and return to the SAME  city in the US, Any foreign port Will do. Example you can go round-trip  Miami stopping in Mexico, that’s ok.

 

But to go from Miami to California, you must stop in one of the DEFINED distant foreign ports.

[Alakegirl]

Gerelmx, no you cannot pay a fine instead.  Please, take this to the Resolutions Department.  That is the best advice you have been given!

[wrk2cruise]

According to something I read on the Carnival page the fine is $798 pp but the Cruise Line can still refuse to let you board as to not be subject to the fine.

[wrk2cruise]

11 minutes ago, Alakegirl said:

Gerelmx, no you cannot pay a fine instead.  Please, take this to the Resolutions Department.  That is the best advice you have been given!

 

I agree with this advise having been through a tough issue with Celebrity within the last couple of months.  If you don't get a "resolution" there then escalate to CelebrityOneTouch@celebrity.com with a detailed description of the problem and what steps you have tried to do to resolve it and possibly a proposal of something which would resolve it to your satisfaction.

 

This may be a bit more difficult since you have a TA involved so they won't speak with you directly but then again your TA should have contacts they can use to escalate as well.  Your TA has some responsibility here as well as they are the travel professional who should understand these things, or at least know enough to ask.

 

3 way calls between you, your TA, and Celebrity can also be effective.

Edited August 1, 2019 by wrk2cruise

[cruisestitch]

For those who are interested, Wikipedia has a pretty good introduction to the PVSA —passenger vessel service act. It also includes a link to the actual act and it’s interesting reading

[Gonzo70]

2 hours ago, spencerdrivecruiser said:

If you leave from Vancouver which is considered an American Port for some reason since its so close to the border and go to an American Port and back to Vancouver you must disembark the ship.  Cannot go to a USA Port.  Kind of antiquated but thats the Jones Act.  They are 100% correct.  You can go from Honolulu to Vancouver but not onto Alaska.  Not sure why they dont repeal this Act.

 

Huh?!? This is complete rubbish. Vancouver is not a US port by any definition. The Jones Act applies to cargo, not people. Your description of it is completely wrong. Cabotage laws are not antiquated (last time the government looked into changing them was to make them even more stringent). And they are 100% incorrect. 

 

The people saying that the Jones Act is irrelevant (as it deals with cargo) and that the relevant law (PVSA) is NOT violated by the OP’s itinerary are 100% correct. Someone at Celebrity screwed up big league in claiming it was a violation and unfortunately the OP’s TA doesn’t seem to realize this. Hopefully resolutions will quickly overrule the person’s idiotic mistake that flagged the itinerary as illegal. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by Gonzo70

[npcl]

1 hour ago, gerelmx said:

Celebrity was giving me an option to solve the problem: at the end of the cruise from Honolulu to Vancouver (second stage) Total disembarkation in Vancouver and boarding the next day in Victoria BC. , my travel agent must make a late boarding request in Victoria.

Can you pay a fine instead?

No the cruise line cannot let you pay a fine and do the cruise.

 

However you shouldn't have to because the three cruise combination is not a violation. You are starting in a foreign port, and ending your trip in a US port. You really need to talk with the resolutions department and find out why they are now considering this to be a violation when it hasn't been in the past. I expect they have had a computer throw out the combination for some reason.  Are all three cruises linked? Are you in the same room?  Does the cruise line realize that you are booked on all three? Was there something different in how you signed up for the first cruise that might result in their computer system thinking that you are initially boarding in Honolulu?

 

As long as the three cruises are consecutive, and no breaks, it should not be a violation.

[gatour]

Based on the email that the OP provided, I think the red-flag was the second and third legs, which is a violation of the PVSA.  I am not sure how the first leg would impact this if taken in conjunction with the second and third legs.  

 

In regards to the "fine".  The fine is applied to the cruise line, which would apply it to the passenger.  However, cruise lines are adverse to accept a booking that is definitely in violation of the PVSA even if the passengers(s) are agreeable to paying the fine from the outset.

 

As to having the PVSA/Jones act still in effect is a topic for another thread somewhere else.

[gerelmx]

My TA will request the late embarkation in Vancouver,  the fine is not a option. 

I will go to Victoria on Sunday and sleep one night there and embark on Monday.

I just book the Marriott Inner Harbour and a Viator tour Coach and Ferry transfer from Canada Place to Victoria Downtown.

I'm in the same cabin in the 3 legs, will ask to X do disembark only with My Back Pack and  leave the bags in the ship.

 

Thank you all for your advice

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/ICP Pax Vessel Services Act Apr 2010.pdf

 

Edited August 2, 2019 by gerelmx

[tallyho8]

No, you were not violating the Jones act or the PSVA and all you had to do was just verify this with the resolution officer at Celebrity. I don't know why you wrote this thread asking for info and then refused to follow all the good info that was given to you.

[Gonzo70]

27 minutes ago, gerelmx said:

My TA will request the late embarkation in Vancouver,  the fine is not a option. 

I will go to Victoria on Sunday and sleep one night there and embark on Monday.

I just book the Marriott Inner Harbour and a Viator tour Coach and Ferry transfer from Canada Place to Victoria Downtown.

I'm in the same cabin in the 3 legs, will ask to X do disembark only with My Back Pack and  leave the bags in the ship.

 

Thank you all for your advice

 

https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/ICP Pax Vessel Services Act Apr 2010.pdf

 

 

Seems like a lot of hassle for no reason. Why not just have your TA contact resolutions department at Celebrity so you can just take the cruises as initially planned. Your itinerary does not violate the PVSA in any way. 

[gerelmx]

9 minutes ago, tallyho8 said:

No, you were not violating the Jones act or the PSVA and all you had to do was just verify this with the resolution officer at Celebrity. I don't know why you wrote this thread asking for info and then refused to follow all the good info that was given to you.

 

I call X,  and they say the same as my TA, I will call again as many of you recommend. And will insist to my TA

Edited August 2, 2019 by gerelmx