Say ciao to that incredible Venice sailaway...

[Underwatr]

27 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

In what way is non-resident homeowners an “issue” in Venice.  They may have pushed up property prices, but their taxes support the city, and they tend to preserve deteriorating buildings, while they make very little demand on services.  Most communities benefit from non-resident homeowners.

It depends on your opinion as to whether Venice should be an amusement park or a vibrant city in its own right. The population has fallen from a peak of  219,000 in 1952 to 120,000 in 1980 and to about 60,000 in 2009.

 

If your concern is tax revenue, forcing property values and taxes up (and former residents away) is a good thing, sure.

 

A recent article: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-06-30/venice-is-dying-a-long-slow-death

Edited August 9, 2019 by Underwatr

[navybankerteacher]

1 minute ago, Underwatr said:

It depends on your opinion as to whether Venice should be an amusement park or a vibrant city in its own right. The population has fallen from a peak of  219,000 in 1952 to 120,000 in 1980 and to about 60,000 in 2009.

 

If your concern is tax revenue, forcing property values and taxes up (and former residents away) is a good thing, sure.

Pretty much since the likes of Vasco di Gama and Christopher Columbus showed the world that world trade did not have to go through Venice, the city has been losing its vibrancy.

 

Without people being interested in purchasing (AND MAINTAINING) the buildings, it would have become a ghost town centuries ago. There is very little commercial activity in Venice beyond housing and feeding visitors and selling trinkets to day-trippers.  Like it or not, it IS more an “amusement park”  (although “museum community” is a better term) than a “vibrant city in its own right”.

 

The former residents had little to do there, so the introduction of non-resident owners saved much of the city from complete decay.  It certainly cannot exist on the day-trippers who do not want to spend more than the cost of a slice of pizza and perhaps a Murano glass paperweight.

[ducklite]

8 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

In what way is non-resident homeowners an “issue” in Venice.  They may have pushed up property prices, but their taxes support the city, and they tend to preserve deteriorating buildings, while they make very little demand on services.  Most communities benefit from non-resident homeowners.

When there is already an acute housing crisis and housing prices are pushed further due to an influx of foreign non-resident buyers, it accentuates the crisis to a breaking point where residents are unable to afford housing.  This creates a marked rise in homelessness which has a negative impact on every part of the economy and quality of life for all residents.  Dublin is a great example of this.  

 

The taxes would be paid either way.  The reality is that communities don't benefit from non-resident owners.  Can you say slumlords?

 

I can also tell you what happened in Orlando, Florida when the global economy went into depression in the late 2000's.  A high percentage of the non-resident owners (foreign and domestic) allowed their homes to go into disrepair and/or foreclosure which further depressed property values around them.  We have currently three homes in my neighborhood which are a hot mess, and two of the three are not year round owner occupied.  

[frantic36]

15 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

The ships sail out hundreds of yards out, they pass the canal in about 20-30', unless you are in a gondola a few feet away, very much doubt your "story" blocking your view but a few minutes on any day, sunny or not.   Perhaps you were there the day that very moment the sun was setting, well a good excuse to come back, or what a beautiful picture, ship, island, tower all in the same shot. 

 

Not sure how a cruise ship ( many of the ships start/end at venice ) where passengers spend a couple days pre/post, fly in fly out, do meals, buy trinkets just like the locals do is any worse value.       

 

I think the larger tourist problem applies Venice or any favorite tourist place that the world wants to visit.   I guess an auction to the highest bidders and for the locals to decide what to charge is the solution everywhere, public access why, just charge and limit based on who can pay, solution to everything.   

 

 

 

I was in Venice in July for 6 days staying on Giudecca Island overlooking the Canal. We frequently saw huge ships coming through. They are so big that if a line snaps from one of the three tugs guiding them down the canal it looked like they were likely to hit Giudecca if not the other side. This was a concern that residents on Giudecca had whenever they watched these ships coming down the canal.

 

I think it might be helpful to have a more controlled amount of tourists would actually make Venice more pleasant. I have been a few times and even I was surprised at the crowds on Burano this time, and I went on a day when there was only one small cruise ship in the city.

[frantic36]

15 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by frantic36
Duplicate post

[ducklite]

16 minutes ago, frantic36 said:

 

I was in Venice in July for 6 days staying on Giudecca Island overlooking the Canal. We frequently saw huge ships coming through. They are so big that if a line snaps from one of the three tugs guiding them down the canal it looked like they were likely to hit Giudecca if not the other side. This was a concern that residents on Giudecca had whenever they watched these ships coming down the canal.

 

I think it might be helpful to have a more controlled amount of tourists would actually make Venice more pleasant. I have been a few times and even I was surprised at the crowds on Burano this time, and I went on a day when there was only one small cruise ship in the city.

The truly small ships only carry up to 500 passengers, so either there were large ships docked in the mainland port, or there were many people actually staying in Venice.  The people actually vacationing there is another consideration--that could account for  10 thousand or more visitors at any given time.

[frantic36]

3 minutes ago, ducklite said:

The truly small ships only carry up to 500 passengers, so either there were large ships docked in the mainland port, or there were many people actually staying in Venice.  The people actually vacationing there is another consideration--that could account for  10 thousand or more visitors at any given time.

 

 

It was a Hapag Lloyd ship so around 500 if you are thinking of our Burano trip. It was probably crowded due to day trippers and bus tours. 

 

Our other days I knew how many ships were in port and went to places like the Jewish Synagogue tour, the Art Biennale in Gardenia and Castello where it was much quieter.

 

When we disembarked or ship which holds 450 passengers there were many large ships in port and it was very crowded until we went to Giudecca for lunch at a restaurant, la Palanca, we enjoy. We had a late flight and a nice way to end our trip.

 

I am thinking that if it was less crowded it would be more pleasant for everyone.

[ducklite]

1 minute ago, frantic36 said:

 

I am thinking that if it was less crowded it would be more pleasant for everyone.

I couldn't agree more, and if it means paying a daily entrance fee to accomplish that, I'm all for it.  The more restrictive the number of daily permits issued, the more I'd be willing to pay.  I'd say that even if I was staying in a hotel there.

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, ducklite said:

..

 

 

The taxes would be paid either way.  The reality is that communities don't benefit from non-resident owners.  Can you say slumlords?

 

...

Why do you try to make “non-resident owner” synonymous with “slumlord”?

A slumlord rents out deteriorated property while a non-resident is an owner who does not occupy his property full time, but who does pay taxes - actually at a higher rate than a resident (at least in Florida) - while not drawing on the community services everyone’s taxes fund.

 

Year-round residents of Florida might resent snowbirds for crowding the place during the season, but they get to use the roads, schools and municipal services year round;  while being partially subsidized by those non-residents.

[ducklite]

9 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Why do you try to make “non-resident owner” synonymous with “slumlord”?

A slumlord rents out deteriorated property while a non-resident is an owner who does not occupy his property full time, but who does pay taxes - actually at a higher rate than a resident (at least in Florida) - while not drawing on the community services everyone’s taxes fund.

 

Year-round residents of Florida might resent snowbirds for crowding the place during the season, but they get to use the roads, schools and municipal services year round;  while being partially subsidized by those non-residents.

Non-resident owners don't have the vested interest that full time residents do.  I was a p/t resident owner for a couple of years in Florida, so I'm well aware of the tax situation with homestead exemptions.  I also know that I care a lot more about my community since I began living here f/t 14 years ago.

 

Non-residents do still draw on services--if lightning hits your house while you aren't there, the fire department still responds. The same thing with law enforcement.  You still have water and sewer going to your home (and being used if you are running irrigation), and the roads for those emergency vehicles still need to be maintained.  I pay school taxes but my son was an adult and had graduated before we moved here--so I'm in the same boat--but not whining about it.  

 

And again, when the economy goes south, the second homes are the ones that people walk away from.  Screw the property values of the neighbors who live there full time.  I've seen it happen with my own two eyes, and it wasn't pretty.  

 

I can also say that the worst house in my neighborhood is owned by a no-resident owner from another country who rents it and doesn't keep it up.  He's about to get hauled in front of the magistrate by code enforcement for the mess it's become.  My husband went down and spent five hours power-washing the sidewalk in front of it so that someone wouldn't slip and fall on the slimy wet concrete that hasn't been cleaned in 13 years.  It's not something the neighbors should have to do because of a non-resident owner who doesn't care.  Another neighbor is trying to sell his home next door to the slumlord, but feedback from several prospective buyers is that they were looking elsewhere because the house and lawn next door are deplorable.  That's what happens when you have non-resident owners renting places out--they don't care about their neighbors, only their wallets.

Edited August 9, 2019 by ducklite

[slidergirl]

21 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

The ships sail out hundreds of yards out, they pass the canal in about 20-30', unless you are in a gondola a few feet away, very much doubt your "story" blocking your view but a few minutes on any day, sunny or not.   Perhaps you were there the day that very moment the sun was setting, well a good excuse to come back, or what a beautiful picture, ship, island, tower all in the same shot. 

 

Not sure how a cruise ship ( many of the ships start/end at venice ) where passengers spend a couple days pre/post, fly in fly out, do meals, buy trinkets just like the locals do is any worse value.       

 

I think the larger tourist problem applies Venice or any favorite tourist place that the world wants to visit.   I guess an auction to the highest bidders and for the locals to decide what to charge is the solution everywhere, public access why, just charge and limit based on who can pay, solution to everything.   

 

 

Thank you so much for calling me a liar...  I was not in Venice for a day, like a common cruiser or day tripper.  I was there on vacation, spending money multiple days, seeking out quiet passages, getting lost,  not rushing to see things to check off my list.  

I vividly remember being in a passageway, walking down toward the Canal, across from Chiesa di San Gregorio Maggiore,  As that ship passed by, it blocked out any view and cast a shadow.  I don't care if it was for a minute or two or all day long - it was a major distraction.  There is no such thing as a 'beautiful' ship when it is ruining a great old city.  

[chipmaster]

20 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Thank you so much for calling me a liar...  I was not in Venice for a day, like a common cruiser or day tripper.  I was there on vacation, spending money multiple days, seeking out quiet passages, getting lost,  not rushing to see things to check off my list.  

I vividly remember being in a passageway, walking down toward the Canal, across from Chiesa di San Gregorio Maggiore,  As that ship passed by, it blocked out any view and cast a shadow.  I don't care if it was for a minute or two or all day long - it was a major distraction.  There is no such thing as a 'beautiful' ship when it is ruining a great old city.  

I'm sure you weren't too touristy,   got a picture, or it didn't happen.

 

I guess I view the cruise ships as majestic engineering marvels, as long as they are managed they are beautiful too was rather beautiful watching the MSC sail by on our evening.  Yes everything is a tradeoff it blocked the beauty of the island appeared but  a few minutes later it was equally beautiful.

 

Nothing is free in world/life, want to get to Venice got to fly for most of us, those are ugly, loud and  polluting beasts those airplanes, yet they are every watch a A380 on approach into LAX amazing too, but live underneath or watch the rising waters due to carbon footprint of all us flying around the world, where to draw the line....

 

Beauty in the eye of the beholder don't they say 😀  

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by chipmaster

[slidergirl]

4 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

I'm sure you weren't too touristy,   got a picture, or it didn't happen.

 

I guess I view the cruise ships as majestic engineering marvels, as loon as they are managed they are beautiful too, beauty in the eye of the beholder don't they say 😀

Thank you for calling me a liar yet again.

 

I did not get any photos, sorry.  I was not going anyplace specific that day, just wandering around.  I didn't wait in line anywhere, book a private tour or excursion, I didn't do a gondola, but used the traghetto to cross the canals a few times.  Spent a wonderful time with an old woman who saw me looking at Murano beads and jewelry in her shop window (it was closed for lunch), invited me in and we talked about beads (I make jewelry), using some books she had and showing me pieces (I don't speak Italian, she didn't speak English, but we "knew" what we were saying) over a cup of espresso.  Found some good cheap places to eat over by the University.  Wondered the streets at night, after the cruisers and daytrippers left.   It was a totally different atmosphere.  

 

Oh, I was down at Cocoa Beach in May.  Went down to Port Canaveral to maybe have dinner at a new restaurant there.  The Harmony of the Seas was docked - I found it rather disgusting.  Far too large and carries too many people to let loose on a small place at once, IMHO.  

[ducklite]

19 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

Beauty in the eye of the beholder don't they say 😀  

 

 

 

If the Soviets had built cruise ships, that's what they would look like.  

 

 

[chipmaster]

16 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Thank you for calling me a liar yet again.

 

I did not get any photos, sorry.  I was not going anyplace specific that day, just wandering around.  I didn't wait in line anywhere, book a private tour or excursion, I didn't do a gondola, but used the traghetto to cross the canals a few times.  Spent a wonderful time with an old woman who saw me looking at Murano beads and jewelry in her shop window (it was closed for lunch), invited me in and we talked about beads (I make jewelry), using some books she had and showing me pieces (I don't speak Italian, she didn't speak English, but we "knew" what we were saying) over a cup of espresso.  Found some good cheap places to eat over by the University.  Wondered the streets at night, after the cruisers and daytrippers left.   It was a totally different atmosphere.  

 

Oh, I was down at Cocoa Beach in May.  Went down to Port Canaveral to maybe have dinner at a new restaurant there.  The Harmony of the Seas was docked - I found it rather disgusting.  Far too large and carries too many people to let loose on a small place at once, IMHO.  

 

IMHO, humble, 😁, don't recall "liar" every being typed by me till just now 😉

 

Others could have produced my first picture as evidence of ruined, and I produced a second, but wait, if you wanted to enjoy you could still and people could still enjoy the sail-in and out, no?    Agree the ships, airplanes, touristy hordes do need some managment/control.

 

I agree the choice in balance of the scaled ships is a complicated tradeoff of maximizing cabins, and revenue isn't exactly classically beautiful, but I fully appreciate why they look the way the do and why the choices were made, no different than when we look at the 747, A380, versus the twin engine marvels like 787 and A350.   

 

I am challenging your opinion how it completely ruined the experience, but think about the thousands that got to enjoy as a counterpoint because they allow these big ships and bigger ships into places like this.  Mind you I partially agree that some balance is in order as bigger is not always better, but scale provides more access and don't know if you've noticed demand is up as population has grown and lots of far richer people want to enjoy what the WIERD people have had all to themselves.  Rather selfish to say only for us and not the others. 

 

I am reading a good book, take a look  " The Righteous Mind"  take a read and learn, I'm done with this line of discussion  

Edited August 9, 2019 by chipmaster

[slidergirl]

1 minute ago, ducklite said:

 

If the Soviets had built cruise ships, that's what they would look like.  

 

 

Hey, it's a multi-purpose building - Small hill ski jumps for training ("small hill" is the K90 jump, "large hill" is the K120 jump).  But, the outrun is a b!tch... 🤣

[ducklite]

This is the ship we visited Venice on.  We SAILED out.  

 

 

[slidergirl]

2 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

IMHO, humble, 😁

 

I agree the choice in balance of the scaled ships is a complicated tradeoff of maximizing cabins, and revenue isn't exactly classically beautiful, but I fully appreciate why they look the way the do and why the choices were made, no different than when we look at the 747, A380, versus the twin engine marvels like 787 and A350.   

 

I am challenging your opinion how it completely ruined the experience, but think about the thousands that got to enjoy as a counterpoint because they allow these big ships and bigger ships into places like this.  Mind you I partially agree that some balance is in order as bigger is not always better, but scale provides more access and don't know if you've noticed demand is up as population has grown and lots of far richer people want to enjoy what the WIERD people have had all to themselves.  Rather selfish to say only for us and not the others. 

 

I am reading a good book, take a look  " The Righteous Mind" 

I did not say it completely ruined my experience.  I said I wasn't thrilled at that point.  I don't care that "thousands" got to enjoy the trip into the Canal.  I got the same trip and more using the public transportation.  Yes, I know demand is up as more of the world's population has gained the means and access to travel.  Not sure what you mean by the "far richer" and "WEIRD" comment was about.  If one wants to visit some places, one must pony up and pay.  US and Canadian National Parks, Egyptian antiquity sites, Petra - I don't see any reason that Venice shouldn't charge and limit access.  

[slidergirl]

37 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

IMHO, humble, 😁, don't recall "liar" every being typed by me till just now 😉

 

Others could have produced my first picture as evidence of ruined, and I produced a second, but wait, if you wanted to enjoy you could still and people could still enjoy the sail-in and out, no?    Agree the ships, airplanes, touristy hordes do need some managment/control.

 

I agree the choice in balance of the scaled ships is a complicated tradeoff of maximizing cabins, and revenue isn't exactly classically beautiful, but I fully appreciate why they look the way the do and why the choices were made, no different than when we look at the 747, A380, versus the twin engine marvels like 787 and A350.   

 

I am challenging your opinion how it completely ruined the experience, but think about the thousands that got to enjoy as a counterpoint because they allow these big ships and bigger ships into places like this.  Mind you I partially agree that some balance is in order as bigger is not always better, but scale provides more access and don't know if you've noticed demand is up as population has grown and lots of far richer people want to enjoy what the WIERD people have had all to themselves.  Rather selfish to say only for us and not the others. 

 

I am reading a good book, take a look  " The Righteous Mind"  take a read and learn, I'm done with this line of discussion  

From one of the earlier posts: "...very much doubt your "story" blocking your view..."

 

One of my seasonal Butlers from my last hotel came from Venice to learn from our Lead Butler so he could teach the new Butlers going in to the new hotel in Venice 5 years ago.  He told us he couldn't live within Venice because rents were insanely high and more and more absentee owners were putting their places into VRBO/AirBnB instead of renting to locals.  He had to live on the Mainland and have a long commute to/from the hotel on one of the islands.  Most of the people he had to work with had to do the same.   Typical of many resort locations around the world - the people who work in the hotels, restaurants, venues, teachers, firemen, police, etc. cannot live where they work.  

Edited August 9, 2019 by slidergirl