Venice bans cruise ships from Giudecca? Latest news

[cruisemom42]

Several news outlets are reporting today that Venice has definitively banned cruise ships from sailing down the famed Giudecca canal, through the heart of the city, after a number of recent incidents in which large ships have either collided or nearly collided with smaller craft. This follows many years of concern and complaints about the damage caused by such ships and the overcrowding they lead to in Venice itself.

 

So far, most of the articles I've seen have been very short on details. I can't find any discussion on whether the size of the ship will impact the route and docking location. One article states:  

 

A third of ships will berth at ports far away from the city by 2020, instead, docking at such ports as the Fusina and Lombardia terminals three miles away across the lagoon on the Italian mainland. In the future, cruise ships will dock at a new location that will be decided on by public consultation. Venues under consideration are Chioggia, at the mouth of the lagoon, and Lido San Nicolo, a ferry terminal on the Adriatic side. 

 

https://www.express.co.uk/travel/cruise/1163154/cruise-ship-venice-cruises-ban-italy-holidays-latest-news

 

One would presume that the larger ships would be among the first third targeted. 

 

(The above article also provides updates on actions to stop overtourism in some other Mediterranean ports including Dubrovnik and Barcelona.)

 

Another article from Cruise Trade News provides a more optimistic take -- apparently CLIA (Cruise Lines International Association) has been trying to work with various Italian authorities to allow larger cruise ships to transit a different route (the Vittoria Emanuele canal instead of the Giudecca canal) to reach the current Marittima port, enabling ships to still dock close to Venice. However, this would mean that cruise ships would still transit the Venice lagoon, which is very controversial with environmentalists, as lagoons have a very delicate ecosystem.

 

https://www.cruisetradenews.com/large-cruise-ships-banned-venice-grand-canal/

 

Stay tuned...

 

 

 

 

[marazul]

Cruisemom,

here is some of the Italian coverage:

https://www.lavocedivenezia.it/grandi-navi-a-venezia-oggi-tavolo-di-discussione-canale-dei-petroli-mai-nominato/

http://www.veneziatoday.it/attualita/grandi-navi-ormeggi-diffusi-fusina-tiv-toninelli.html

[cruisemom42]

Ciao e grazie!

[chipmaster]

The regulation of tourism is a challenge.  Regardless of where the ships dock you won’t change the crazy crowding and tourist hordes clogging San Marco or the narrow canals and walkways.

 

All I see this doing is inconveniencing all the cruisers and taking away what was/is a beautiful sail away, accidents happen.  I’ve done two sail-always and one sale in and I like all things if managed likely safely and with little fanfare.   

 

I can see the wisdom of new sitting laws they seem to be putting in place, be careful they may kill the golden goose.

 

Glas I got to enjoy and captured a few golden moments on the last sailway this year 

 

 

[steamboats]

First of all this was a talk between the minister of transport and the CLIA. The mayor of Venice does not like the suggestions made there. So we have to wait and see.

 

The suggestions are that starting in September a couple of ships should dock in Fusina and Lombardia. But the major problem is that those are ferry terminals and they are located on the Canale dei Petroli which is already pretty busy with oil tankers and more going to Marghera. It´s a one way traffic so it´s closed for hours in the other direction.

 

Then by 2020 30% of all ships should go there.... Even more problems.

 

Ships with 40,000 BRT or under can still go into the port. I think the last agreement was 55,000 BRT or 95,000 BRT. I´m not sure about the number (it has changed so many times).

 

So when the mayor opposes those plans I´m not sure whether they can be realized.

 

steamboats

[cruisemom42]

1 hour ago, chipmaster said:

The regulation of tourism is a challenge.  Regardless of where the ships dock you won’t change the crazy crowding and tourist hordes clogging San Marco or the narrow canals and walkways.

 

All I see this doing is inconveniencing all the cruisers and taking away what was/is a beautiful sail away, accidents happen.  I’ve done two sail-always and one sale in and I like all things if managed likely safely and with little fanfare.   

 

I can see the wisdom of new sitting laws they seem to be putting in place, be careful they may kill the golden goose.

 

Glas I got to enjoy and captured a few golden moments on the last sailway this year 

 

 

 

Actually, Venice is also considering ways to limit the amount of tourists on a given day, including a scheme with tickets and turnstiles. 

 

As to safety -- take a look at your own photo, posted above. It wouldn't take much -- a temporary loss of power or steering ability -- on one of these giant ships, to plow right into the Piazzetta or the Doge's Palace, and that would be a priceless loss.  Consider that already this year (in June) a large MSC cruise ship in the Giudecca canal collided with a much smaller river cruiser and hit a crowded dock due to engine problems. Even the tugs were not able to prevent the collision.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venice-cruise-ship-crash-backlash-following-venice-dock-accident-msc-opera/

 

And there have been other near misses as well. 

 

Of course we all want everything, sometimes we want things that aren't good for us in the long-run, or good for others. That's where altruism comes in. Sure, I'd rather pitch that soda can to the ground in my local park instead of carrying it a quarter mile to the trash bin. But I don't do it because I understand the impact of littering.

 

(And as for killing the golden goose, Venice would survive just fine as a tourist destination even if every cruise ship stopped calling there tomorrow. Plenty of folks will continue to flock there on vacations or land tours. In fact, one of the arguments of locals is that cruise passengers leave so little money behind in the city compared with those who stay in hotels for several days, eat meals in local restaurants, etc....)

Edited August 8, 2019 by cruisemom42

[TSUmom]

32 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Actually, Venice is also considering ways to limit the amount of tourists on a given day, including a scheme with tickets and turnstiles. 

 

As to safety -- take a look at your own photo, posted above. It wouldn't take much -- a temporary loss of power or steering ability -- on one of these giant ships, to plow right into the Piazzetta or the Doge's Palace, and that would be a priceless loss.  Consider that already this year (in June) a large MSC cruise ship in the Giudecca canal collided with a much smaller river cruiser and hit a crowded dock due to engine problems. Even the tugs were not able to prevent the collision.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venice-cruise-ship-crash-backlash-following-venice-dock-accident-msc-opera/

 

And there have been other near misses as well. 

 

Of course we all want everything, sometimes we want things that aren't good for us in the long-run, or good for others. That's where altruism comes in. Sure, I'd rather pitch that soda can to the ground in my local park instead of carrying it a quarter mile to the trash bin. But I don't do it because I understand the impact of littering.

 

(And as for killing the golden goose, Venice would survive just fine as a tourist destination even if every cruise ship stopped calling there tomorrow. Plenty of folks will continue to flock there on vacations or land tours. In fact, one of the arguments of locals is that cruise passengers leave so little money behind in the city compared with those who stay in hotels for several days, eat meals in local restaurants, etc....)

I guess I will anxiously wait to hear more...we will be in Venice in Oct 31st and Nov 1st on the Jade.

[FinelyRetired]

https://www.cruisetradenews.com/large-cruise-ships-banned-venice-grand-canal/ I

 

Easy for me to say having sailed out of Venice 3 times; but it is so special I never did bother to take a gondola ride on the Grand Canal and my only water taxi "tours" of the canals occurred on way to/from airport.  I will make an effort to do either of those in the future which would be equally nice and better for local economy.

Edited August 8, 2019 by FinelyRetired
addition

[dogs4fun]

53 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

(And as for killing the golden goose, Venice would survive just fine as a tourist destination even if every cruise ship stopped calling there tomorrow. Plenty of folks will continue to flock there on vacations or land tours. In fact, one of the arguments of locals is that cruise passengers leave so little money behind in the city compared with those who stay in hotels for several days, eat meals in local restaurants, etc....)

 

 

 

Precisely! Neither Rome nor Venice would be negatively impacted by the loss of cruise ship passengers (add Florence as well).

It is high time that Venice seriously consider the negative environmental impact caused by large cruise ships (not to mention collisions and the like). I would hope that Venice remains available for future generations to visit - don't want to destroy it. As always, jmho.

 

[chipmaster]

1 hour ago, dogs4fun said:

Precisely! Neither Rome nor Venice would be negatively impacted by the loss of cruise ship passengers (add Florence as well).

It is high time that Venice seriously consider the negative environmental impact caused by large cruise ships (not to mention collisions and the like). I would hope that Venice remains available for future generations to visit - don't want to destroy it. As always, jmho.

 

 

What is the negative environmental impact of cruise ships?  I guess if these same 8-10K choose to fly in and then fly out the carbon footprint, trash, etc. etc. is smaller?      

 

I think things like collisions are indeed a risk, as $h!t happens and obviously if you don't allow them to sail then no problem that kind of $h!t won't happen, but other will.      I'd argue when we sailed this past month there were three tugs that escorted us out, like to believe with competence and redundancy the likely hood of accidents are low, but you can't fix stupid and there is a lot of stupid.      

 

Like another poster didn't take the gondola, different strokes for different folks, considered it highway robbery and so toursity, but did enjoy strolling the narrow streets early 9am and earlier, and after 10pm, no avoiding the crowds during peak time, but the three sailways were special, early early morning 2x, and one sunset.   Pretty special view, not reproducible by gondola or watertaxi,  pity that will / could go.

 

The locals should never forget it is the tourists whether by cruise, land, sea etc. are the ones that provide their livelyhood.   Any tourist talking is calling the kettle black 😁

 

Yeah can't wait tor turnstile access and tickets for Everest, San Marco, Santorini, or other big attraction. 

[chipmaster]

2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Actually, Venice is also considering ways to limit the amount of tourists on a given day, including a scheme with tickets and turnstiles. 

 

As to safety -- take a look at your own photo, posted above. It wouldn't take much -- a temporary loss of power or steering ability -- on one of these giant ships, to plow right into the Piazzetta or the Doge's Palace, and that would be a priceless loss.  Consider that already this year (in June) a large MSC cruise ship in the Giudecca canal collided with a much smaller river cruiser and hit a crowded dock due to engine problems. Even the tugs were not able to prevent the collision.

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venice-cruise-ship-crash-backlash-following-venice-dock-accident-msc-opera/

 

And there have been other near misses as well. 

 

Of course we all want everything, sometimes we want things that aren't good for us in the long-run, or good for others. That's where altruism comes in. Sure, I'd rather pitch that soda can to the ground in my local park instead of carrying it a quarter mile to the trash bin. But I don't do it because I understand the impact of littering.

 

(And as for killing the golden goose, Venice would survive just fine as a tourist destination even if every cruise ship stopped calling there tomorrow. Plenty of folks will continue to flock there on vacations or land tours. In fact, one of the arguments of locals is that cruise passengers leave so little money behind in the city compared with those who stay in hotels for several days, eat meals in local restaurants, etc....)

 

BTW one of the major attractions of almost every port Rome, Barcelona, Venice etc.   I am sure many like me look to stay a few days, ate 9 meals time 4, countless gelato, etc. etc.    You are right we didn't spend anything in town, LOL

[cruisemom42]

59 minutes ago, chipmaster said:

 

What is the negative environmental impact of cruise ships?  I guess if these same 8-10K choose to fly in and then fly out the carbon footprint, trash, etc. etc. is smaller?      

 

(trimmed)

 

The locals should never forget it is the tourists whether by cruise, land, sea etc. are the ones that provide their livelyhood.   Any tourist talking is calling the kettle black 😁

 

 

The negative environmental impact has to do with the large cruise ships traveling through the Venice lagoon, which has a very delicate balance that is easily impacted by too much disruption, pollution, etc.  But also it's been demonstrated that cruise ships create waves that, when contained within a small area like a canal and experienced repeatedly, damage the wooden foundations on which the city is built.

 

I don't happen to agree with your last statement. Do you have any idea what is happening in Venice?  Venice is not some local beach with nothing to fall back on besides tourism. Most of the true "locals" have fled the city because they cannot afford to live there and there is little local economy other than the tourist economy. Venice used to be a hub of publishing, had a thriving academic community, was a center of ship-building, glass-making, and housed many small artisans. Now most of the usable "space" within Venice that once housed universities, galleries, workrooms, offices, has all been bought up by outside groups (a.k.a. not locals) who turn them into boutique hotels and apartments and shops for tourists -- shops that do not even sell Venetian-made products but cheaper ones made elsewhere.

 

And why should any tourist who wants to make things better be "calling the kettle black".  It's not an all or nothing game -- making any improvement in current conditions is better than making none!

[marazul]

Cruisemom-

Amen to that.

 

Chipmaster-

Let's not forget that Venice is a living city with a 1500 year history. It is not a Disney creation for the sole benefit of tourists.

The infrastructure of the city is being destroyed by the physical effects of the cruise ships.  The same number of people arriving by train from a remote cruise terminal would not have the same effect. Please, remember it is not about your photo ops, it is about the history and survival of a living treasure. 

[ollienbertsmum]

I am watching this thread with interest in case anyone has up to date news.  

 

I was well aware of the environmental impact of the large ships.  I understand things have got to change and I am glad about that.  I would have been happy to ‘Boycott’ cruises leaving Venice but know that my single action would have made no difference.  There would have just been someone else sleeping in the cabin that I have booked.  

 

We are due to leave on NCL Star on September 15th.  I wonder if we will be affected.

[cruisemom42]

7 hours ago, ollienbertsmum said:

I am watching this thread with interest in case anyone has up to date news.  

 

I was well aware of the environmental impact of the large ships.  I understand things have got to change and I am glad about that.  I would have been happy to ‘Boycott’ cruises leaving Venice but know that my single action would have made no difference.  There would have just been someone else sleeping in the cabin that I have booked.  

 

We are due to leave on NCL Star on September 15th.  I wonder if we will be affected.

 

Given the walking back that has already occurred since the original news stories were published, as well as their goal of only re-directing 30% of ships by 2020, I strongly doubt that your cruise which is only a month away will be impacted. But of course in your position I'd keep an eye on the situation.

[marazul]

7 hours ago, ollienbertsmum said:

I was well aware of the environmental impact of the large ships.  I understand things have got to change and I am glad about that.  I would have been happy to ‘Boycott’ cruises leaving Venice but know that my single action would have made no difference.  There would have just been someone else sleeping in the cabin that I have booked.  

 

 

That's why governmental action is long overdue. I hope they have the guts to go through with it.

Edited August 9, 2019 by marazul

[steamboats]

First of all there´s another political crisis in Italy and nobody really knows how long this government will last and in case it breaks up there will be a new minister... and new discussions.

 

Second CLIA said that the media reports are not correct. They did not agree with any plans proposed by the minister but still favor the Canale Vittorio Emmanuele to be dug out so the ships can reach the current Stazione Marittima from the Marghera side (via Canale dei Petroli).

 

So there will be a lot of tides going up and down until something happens in Venice...

 

steamboats

[Compass Rose Monica]

I found this article. 

 

https://www.thelocal.it/20190810/no-venice-isnt-about-to-ban-cruise-ships-from-its-lagoon

 

 

[chipmaster]

13 hours ago, marazul said:

Cruisemom-

Amen to that.

 

Chipmaster-

Let's not forget that Venice is a living city with a 1500 year history. It is not a Disney creation for the sole benefit of tourists.

The infrastructure of the city is being destroyed by the physical effects of the cruise ships.  The same number of people arriving by train from a remote cruise terminal would not have the same effect. Please, remember it is not about your photo ops, it is about the history and survival of a living treasure. 

 

Whats the balance then, the local and national goverment is similar to the US currently,  no vision, no backbond, no common sense, no ability to compromise for the common good.

 

I love to see treasures preserved, for whom, what cost, who gets access, please do tell.   A treasure saved but for no one to sea, whats the purpose of that?      

 

Just taking the hard other view, you can preserve Antelop Valley or Horshoe bend from the hordes but then if the beauty is not accessible to the common man is what's the point, for which generation and what class gets to appreciate.    W/o a clear end goal and larger fair access not clear who the winner and loser is 😁

 

 

[slidergirl]

2 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

Whats the balance then, the local and national goverment is similar to the US currently,  no vision, no backbond, no common sense, no ability to compromise for the common good.

 

I love to see treasures preserved, for whom, what cost, who gets access, please do tell.   A treasure saved but for no one to sea, whats the purpose of that?      

 

Just taking the hard other view, you can preserve Antelop Valley or Horshoe bend from the hordes but then if the beauty is not accessible to the common man is what's the point, for which generation and what class gets to appreciate.    W/o a clear end goal and larger fair access not clear who the winner and loser is 😁

 

 

Ever visit a National Park or National Monument or National Historic Monument?  Everyone who wants to access may do so AFTER paying a fee to help maintain and preserve.  Ever been to a museum?  Everyone who wants to access may do so AFTER paying a fee to help maintain and preserve.  Not sure what "Antelop Valley" or "Horshoe bend" you are referring to.  If it is Antelope Canyon in Arizona, it is on Native American land and they do charge for entrance.  They do this to preserve AND to be sure they know everyone who is in the canyon due to the possibility of flash flooding.  Like Bear Ears National Monument - a sacred place to the Native American tribes in Northern Arizona/Southern Utah.  It was preserved by joint agreement of the tribes and the government. But, oil, gas, and mining interests paid lobbyists to get the current regime to decimate Bear Ears and open up the area to mining and fracking.  Another beautiful place where the common man could go to but will now be destroyed for monetary game.

 

I do not mind if I have to pay a fee to enter any area.  I'll even drop some money in the boxes at a church that I visit - I am grateful that I am allowed to visit and will do a little to help maintain.

 

As for doing a cruise or not doing a cruise that does Venice - sure, you are just one person and someone will take the cabin.  But, everyone has to make a conscious choice.  If everyone says "well, it's just me" and doesn't do anything, nothing happens.  

[marazul]

4 hours ago, chipmaster said:

 

Whats the balance then, the local and national goverment is similar to the US currently,  no vision, no backbond, no common sense, no ability to compromise for the common good.

 

I love to see treasures preserved, for whom, what cost, who gets access, please do tell.   A treasure saved but for no one to sea, whats the purpose of that?      

 

 

 

 

The point is that cruise ships are damaging the city.  Cruisers can get there from a more distant port, maybe a half hour ride away.  Yes, you would miss the sail in or out, but you would still be able to visit the city.  It is the preservation of the city vs. the photo op. 

 

And BTW, you can get the same "sail in" photos from the bell tower of San Giorgio Maggiore.  

Edited August 9, 2019 by marazul

[cruisemom42]

On 8/8/2019 at 9:48 AM, cruisemom42 said:

Another article from Cruise Trade News provides a more optimistic take -- apparently CLIA (Cruise Lines International Association) has been trying to work with various Italian authorities to allow larger cruise ships to transit a different route (the Vittoria Emanuele canal instead of the Giudecca canal) to reach the current Marittima port, enabling ships to still dock close to Venice. However, this would mean that cruise ships would still transit the Venice lagoon, which is very controversial with environmentalists, as lagoons have a very delicate ecosystem.

 

 

 

In case anyone is interested in looking at the proposal that CLIA supports, it is summed up in this "infographic" based on recommendations made back in 2017 by an interdepartmental government committee (and we all know how well THOSE tend to work....)

 

 

 

[chipmaster]

4 hours ago, slidergirl said:

Ever visit a National Park or National Monument or National Historic Monument?  Everyone who wants to access may do so AFTER paying a fee to help maintain and preserve.  Ever been to a museum?  Everyone who wants to access may do so AFTER paying a fee to help maintain and preserve.  Not sure what "Antelop Valley" or "Horshoe bend" you are referring to.  If it is Antelope Canyon in Arizona, it is on Native American land and they do charge for entrance.  They do this to preserve AND to be sure they know everyone who is in the canyon due to the possibility of flash flooding.  Like Bear Ears National Monument - a sacred place to the Native American tribes in Northern Arizona/Southern Utah.  It was preserved by joint agreement of the tribes and the government. But, oil, gas, and mining interests paid lobbyists to get the current regime to decimate Bear Ears and open up the area to mining and fracking.  Another beautiful place where the common man could go to but will now be destroyed for monetary game.

 

I do not mind if I have to pay a fee to enter any area.  I'll even drop some money in the boxes at a church that I visit - I am grateful that I am allowed to visit and will do a little to help maintain.

 

As for doing a cruise or not doing a cruise that does Venice - sure, you are just one person and someone will take the cabin.  But, everyone has to make a conscious choice.  If everyone says "well, it's just me" and doesn't do anything, nothing happens.  

 

Yup been to al ot, climbed halfdome with the lottery, paid  fee when required, can't recalled but I think we did left a donation at every church we visited in Venice, Florence, Rome and across Greece this time, and so what if we did or not?   

 

In the end the fees left for the parks still have left them terrible underfunded and overcrowded so the fees didn't do much.  The situation with Grand Canyon and Horse shoe and Antelope is interesting.   I haven't been to either but had some Chinese friends who have gone, paid and it is a circus that continues to escalate.     World tourist attractions just like crazy house prices and traffic jams are a fact of human kind in the current world state.      To control crowds with fees to reach the natural balance will put many of these places out of reach for the large majority of people, again no equitable and fair solution,  IMHO 😉😀

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by chipmaster

[ollienbertsmum]

11 hours ago, slidergirl said:

 

As for doing a cruise or not doing a cruise that does Venice - sure, you are just one person and someone will take the cabin.  But, everyone has to make a conscious choice.  If everyone says "well, it's just me" and doesn't do anything, nothing happens.  

 

 

I agree with you entirely.  I try to live by the philosophy that ‘one person can make a difference’.  I hesitated before I made the choice but I genuinely believed that cruise ships would be moving well away by 2020.  In that way, I was not making a difference because the change was made.  I had heard about the plans over a number of years and  thought that the agreements had been made.   I assumed that the infrastructure to allow big ships to move away must have been being created right now.  It seems I was wrong.     I acknowledge that I seem to be applying double standards.  I am not sure if I would have booked this particular cruise had I known that changes were not ongoing.    It is what it is right now. 

 

For the environmental impact caused by the ships themselves and for the sheer fact of reducing tourist numbers I would agree that the ships need to move.  Not just a different channel - they need to get the ships out of the lagoon.    There have to be transport links to get tourists to the start of their cruise.      Is it really that difficult???

[commodoredave]

I wrote about the coming Venice cruise ship ban in my travel blog today. Not much new for those of you who have been following this issue, but a decent summary of what has transpired, and what might be coming next. As always, your views are greatly valued.

https://gentlemansportion.com/2019/08/12/leviathans-of-the-lagoon-getting-cast-adrift/