Exaggerated or Not?

[ilikeanswers]

9 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Good points.  One way to reduce the number of this kind of incident, both on cruise ships and - well everywhere - is to acknowledge that in the real world there are always predators looking for the weakest animals in the herd.  Don't be the weakest animal, and certainly don't MAKE yourself the weakest animal through your behavior.  And if you are responsible for someone who is the weakest animal in the herd (like a 15 year old) take that responsibility seriously, and prevent them from becoming even more vulnerable.  To ignore these simple universal and time-tested rules, but instead rail against the reality about predators, and then act as if they don't exist, is foolish.

 

Sorry this has been proven false and we need to stop perpetuating this myth about the weakest in the heard. If you read the accounts of sexual assault you will find victims come in all sets of confidence backgrounds and street smarts. If you want to talk about parables how about the one of every locked room has a key. A great example was a serial rapist who chose his victims based on their balcony door because there was a certain type of door he knew he could break into. It had nothing to do with the victim being weak, it was the weakness of their door that made them a victim. 

 

But in many ways it is beside the point because the truth is most people become victims because they trusted the perpetrators. Perpetrators almost always establish trust with the victim before they attack. The same thing probably happened with this girl on the cruise. They were probably charming and nice and made her feel safe. Humans are social creatures, it is hard wired in us to look for social connections. That is how we make friends they start off as strangers the same thing with life partners. The only way to avoid being attacked by someone you trust is to live in complete isolation of humanity. 

 

We tell women don't drink too much so perpetrators drug them, we tell women don't go off with strange men so perpetrators become their friends. For centuries we have been telling people to protect themselves to prevent becoming a victim and judges use it as an excuse for lenient punishments. But the fact is it does not work. It has not reduced crime, it has not reduced the prevalence of sexual assault. We now have facts to prove that the assumptions of sexual assaults were just that baseless assumptions. So if we are serious about combating sexual assault we need to start looking at the facts of why sexual assault happens and come up with strategies to fix those issues so we can begin reducing sexual assault in our society. 

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 Wonder how that’s going to work when real world rejection from girls occurs.  

 

Now you are asking the right questions. There was a two year study that looked into why men commit violence against women and they interviewed thousands of men who had perpetrated violence against women and one of the reasons that these men consistently gave for their behaviour was that they were afraid of being humiliated but not by the woman as is always the assumption but by what their male peers would think of them for being rejected by a woman. They  had somehow rationalised that if they could demonstrate they can control a woman that it would somehow impress their male peers. 

[clo]

35 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

Sorry this has been proven false

Thank you so much for what is clearly knowledgeable.  It's a really big deal and false assumptions must make the issue worse. ?

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Thank you so much for what is clearly knowledgeable.  It's a really big deal and false assumptions must make the issue worse. ?

 

There are so many myths that are unfortunately filtering down to the next generation. I usually start a class by asking the students what do they know or think about sexual assault so we can get some of those myths out of the way early on. But if there is one myth I probably should have addressed earlier is the idea that young people especially women aren't living a vigilant life. So many people on this thread seem to think young women are blase about their safety but when I we get a mixed gendered class we have this excercise where we ask first the boys to write down what they do everyday to protect themselves from sexual assault. Rarely anyone comes to the board to write anyhting. Then you ask the girls what do you do everyday to protect yourself from sexual assault and nearly every girl comes to the boards to writes something like always walking in groups, avoiding going out at night especially alone, wearing headphones and avoiding eye contact so you don't give out the wrong idea, if you get unwanted attention be extra polite to them so they don't get angry, it just goes on and wow are the boys eyes opened at just how threatening the girls view the world.

 

People need to stop saying that young women are not aware of threats in the world, they are very cognizant of these threats but clearly it is not resulting in a decrease to sexual assault numbers therefore it can not be the solution to the problem.

[clo]

9 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

There are so many myths that are unfortunately filtering down to the next generation. I usually start a class by asking the students what do they know or think about sexual assault so we can get some of those myths out of the way early on. But if there is one myth I probably should have addressed earlier is the idea that young people especially women aren't living a vigilant life. So many people on this thread seem to think young women are blase about their safety but when I we get a mixed gendered class we have this excercise where we ask first the boys to write down what they do everyday to protect themselves from sexual assault. Rarely anyone comes to the board to write anyhting. Then you ask the girls what do you do everyday to protect yourself from sexual assault and nearly every girl comes to the boards to writes something like always walking in groups, avoiding going out at night especially alone, wearing headphones and avoiding eye contact so you don't give out the wrong idea, if you get unwanted attention be extra polite to them so they don't get angry, it just goes on and wow are the boys eyes opened at just how threatening the girls view the world.

 

People need to stop saying that young women are not aware of threats in the world, they are very cognizant of these threats but clearly it is not resulting in a decrease to sexual assault numbers therefore it can not be the solution to the problem.

Hopefully this and other comments have opened some eyes.  Sometimes we think/feel/believe something only to find out that the fact don't support it.  Then it's important to have an open mind.  I try to practice this...and am sometimes successful :)

[gammite]

16 hours ago, calliopecruiser said:

Well, that says so much about you and about how you view women.  It's so much clearer now.

 

'Nuff said. 

 

lol. 

 

okay now you all are getting ridiculous.  this is going to be my last post regarding this issue.

 

the only thing my statement says is that i would not want her to stay in port wandering around looking for me if the ship leaves.  imo, that is the smart thing to do.  and her statement is simply stating that she feels safer with me around.   i would hope  that all men provide safety for the women with whom they choose to share their lives. 

 

you all are intentionally taking my words out of context.  i will not be goaded into taking this thread further off of topic.  this is the classic you beat your wife argument/attack logical fallacy where there is no good way to address said topic.  

 

again stop with the straw men arguments, the passive aggressive statements and the "internet tough guy" shenanigans. 

 

i am not sure how stating that i prefer that she stay on the ship if i am not on the ship when the ship is getting ready to leave port turns me into a caveman that domineers her and tells her what to do as i drag her around by her hair and she can go nowhere without me.  you all sound ridiculous and anyone with critical thinking skills and deductive reasoning understood what i meant.

 

i want her to be safe and to feel safe.  that is what any man wants for their wife/gf/partner.

 

we can civilly discuss the issues of this incident without having to personally attack one another.  i am not the first person was attacked in this thread.  

 

this is comically tragic.

 

 

 

 

[gammite]

15 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 

Likewise, think about today's can’t-say-no parents who are raising kids, especially boys, to get everything they want. Hmmm. Wonder how that’s going to work when real world rejection from girls occurs.  

 

this is also a problem.

 

and it applies to boys and girls.

[gammite]

13 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

A great example was a serial rapist who chose his victims based on their balcony door because there was a certain type of door he knew he could break into. It had nothing to do with the victim being weak, it was the weakness of their door that made them a victim. 

 

 

 

you say tomato.  i say tomato.

[gammite]

13 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Now you are asking the right questions. There was a two year study that looked into why men commit violence against women and they interviewed thousands of men who had perpetrated violence against women and one of the reasons that these men consistently gave for their behaviour was that they were afraid of being humiliated but not by the woman as is always the assumption but by what their male peers would think of them for being rejected by a woman. They  had somehow rationalised that if they could demonstrate they can control a woman that it would somehow impress their male peers. 

 

do you have a link to this study?  i am interested in seeing the demographics of the participants of this study.

[gammite]

10 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

There are so many myths that are unfortunately filtering down to the next generation. I usually start a class by asking the students what do they know or think about sexual assault so we can get some of those myths out of the way early on. But if there is one myth I probably should have addressed earlier is the idea that young people especially women aren't living a vigilant life. So many people on this thread seem to think young women are blase about their safety but when I we get a mixed gendered class we have this excercise where we ask first the boys to write down what they do everyday to protect themselves from sexual assault. Rarely anyone comes to the board to write anyhting. Then you ask the girls what do you do everyday to protect yourself from sexual assault and nearly every girl comes to the boards to writes something like always walking in groups, avoiding going out at night especially alone, wearing headphones and avoiding eye contact so you don't give out the wrong idea, if you get unwanted attention be extra polite to them so they don't get angry, it just goes on and wow are the boys eyes opened at just how threatening the girls view the world.

 

People need to stop saying that young women are not aware of threats in the world, they are very cognizant of these threats but clearly it is not resulting in a decrease to sexual assault numbers therefore it can not be the solution to the problem.

 

imo, everything you wrote seems to make sense.  however, men and boys are not the PRIMARY targets of sexual assault for a number of reasons.  there are men that are sexually assaulted but the far majority are women and girls.

 

what you wrote does not apply to this incident.   she was blackout drunk and by herself and no one knew her whereabouts.

 

at least for me i don't think that someone of any gender or age should put themselves in this position.  men will likely be robbed, beaten up or worse and we have already discussed what may happen to women and girls.

 

this is not a gender discussion for me. no man, woman, boy or girl should be blackout drunk by themselves with a bunch of strangers under any circumstances in any situation.

[Toofarfromthesea]

19 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

And most are, but still make mistakes. For those that think teens need to be within eyesight of their parents, and not be given independence, aren’t thinking about their safety when they go off to college. I firmly believe predators prey on the vulnerable, and kids who have been bubble wrapped and haven’t learned situational awareness are raising future victims. Now kids can’t even walk to the bus stop, yet in my childhood my parents never even knew where I was. I learned to trust my instincts.

 

I sent my 16 year old daughter, by herself, to Mexico to attend a language school.  I sent my other daughter to college 2000 miles away from home at age 17.  Sure, terrible things could have happened to them.  But if they did it wouldn't have been because their own stupid actions increased their risks.  Because we won the battle between the family's values and their peer group's values.  There is no way in hell they would have gone off drinking with strangers.

[Aquahound]

1 hour ago, gammite said:

 

we can civilly discuss the issues of this incident without having to personally attack one another.  i am not the first person was attacked in this thread.  

 

this is comically tragic.

 

gammite, your posts have been some of the most angry on this thread, yet you accuse the others of being uncivil and attacking.  If you can't see the hypocrisy, it's probably best if you see your way out of this thread.  

[gammite]

6 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

gammite, your posts have been some of the most angry on this thread, yet you accuse the others of being uncivil and attacking.  If you can't see the hypocrisy, it's probably best if you see your way out of this thread.  

 

i am not angry and have not conveyed any anger at all. 

 

and i have not leveled any personal attack against anyone.  also i was not the only person in this thread attacked for stating common sense.

Edited September 14, 2019 by gammite

[Bloodgem]

17 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 

Likewise, think about today's can’t-say-no parents who are raising kids, especially boys, to get everything they want. Hmmm. Wonder how that’s going to work when real world rejection from girls occurs.  

This could also be the reason why rejected girls make false rape allegations.

[clo]

3 hours ago, Bloodgem said:

This could also be the reason why rejected girls make false rape allegations.

Oh my.  I had a feeling something like this would come up.

 

Here's some info from Stanford University:

https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=297

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Oh my.  I had a feeling something like this would come up.

 

Here's some info from Stanford University:

https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=297

I’m only surprised it took this long.

[clo]

14 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

I’m only surprised it took this long.

True. Eleven pages and almost 300 hundred posts.

[Bloodgem]

1 hour ago, clo said:

Oh my.  I had a feeling something like this would come up.

 

Here's some info from Stanford University:

https://web.stanford.edu/group/maan/cgi-bin/?page_id=297

Thank you for the link. You do realise that the webpage was written in 2010.

 

Even if only 2% of the rape allegations are false, according to the webpage, the girls are still wrong to make them. Just as it's unacceptable for boys to rape women that reject them.

 

[clo]

1 hour ago, Bloodgem said:

Just as it's unacceptable for boys to rape women that reject them.

I'm curious where you get this from.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, clo said:

I'm curious where you get this from.

It was in the Stanford study you cited - but that is immaterial:  if 2% of claims are false, it should follow that 98% are true - an overwhelming ratio.

 

It is a serious problem infecting our society - which seems to worsen in passing years: “no” should always be accepted as meaning “no”.  

[clo]

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

It was in the Stanford study you cited - but that is immaterial:  if 2% of claims are false, it should follow that 98% are true - an overwhelming ratio.

 

It is a serious problem infecting our society - which seems to worsen in passing years: “no” should always be accepted as meaning “no”.  

Thanks, NBT.  I was really talking about "boys" raping "women."

 

But yes.  And if you're falling down drunk or unconscious IMneverHO, NO is taken for granted.

[ilikeanswers]

8 hours ago, gammite said:

 

 

you say tomato.  i say tomato.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to here but if it is to do with the rapist's reasoning you will have to take that argument to him as I was paraphrasing what he told the investigators. 

 

8 hours ago, gammite said:

 

do you have a link to this study?  i am interested in seeing the demographics of the participants of this study.

 

I had it emailed to me so I don't have a link. It is being expanded to the US and Europe so maybe then it will be more readily available. It will be interesting to see if the results change or stay the same. However it does track with numerous studies that found that when men criticised male peers for treating women badly they were more likely to modify their behaviour but if a women did the same thing it would escalate their bad treatment. On top of that the admittedly small studies into extremist groups like incels have suggested that the primary motivation seems to be about impressing each other with how derogatory they can go. So there might be something to the idea that men really care about what other men think of them. 

 

8 hours ago, gammite said:

what you wrote does not apply to this incident.   she was blackout drunk and by herself and no one knew her whereabouts.

 

at least for me i dont think that someone of any gender or age should put themselves in this position.  men will likely be robbed, beaten up or worse and we have already discussed what may happen to women and girls.

 

this is not a gender discussion for me. no man, woman, boy or girl should be blackout drunk by themselves with a bunch of strangers under any circumstances in any situation.

 

I don't remember reading that she was blackout drunk. But you did kind of miss the point that most rapes are committed by someone the victim trusted. While the exercise is more about giving awareness to boys about their behaviour it does highlight just how pointless most of the girl's tactics are because they like most of society are expecting to raped by complete strangers when they are more likely to be attacked by someone they trust someone whom they would not be so cautious around.

 

Now obviously we don't know the details of the case but if it did come out that the girl had met some of these men prior to the bar, that they chatted, hung out, they were friendly and all round gentlemen at the time, it wouldn't surprise me as it would track with a majority of sexual assault cases. When you trust someone you are more likely to partake in riskier activities with that person because you feel safe around that person. That is something that is very difficult to protect yourself against because as humans we are all looking to make new social connections and that will inevitably mean lowering your defences and trusting someone. 

[Aquahound]

8 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

It was in the Stanford study you cited - but that is immaterial:  if 2% of claims are false, it should follow that 98% are true - an overwhelming ratio.

 

It is a serious problem infecting our society - which seems to worsen in passing years: “no” should always be accepted as meaning “no”.  

 

5 minutes ago, clo said:

Thanks, NBT.  I was really talking about "boys" raping "women."

 

But yes.  And if you're falling down drunk or unconscious IMneverHO, NO is taken for granted.

 

I'm privy to sex assault investigations occurring in the military and we're seeing many cases these days that are based on inability to consent based on intoxication.  Many aren't predatory cases.  Many are cases of boy meets girl, boy and girl have a few drinks, boy and girl go back to room and then the next day, girl (mostly girl) regrets decision and files allegations based on her being drunk.  By law, she has a case.  But by law, he was also intoxicated so why is he to blame and how is he not also victim? 

 

This exact scenario happens A LOT.  I only bring this up because the lack of prosecution skews the numbers to what might look like false allegations but are really just not prosecutable. 

 

To be clear, I'm not relating this to the case on the cruise ship.

[navybankerteacher]

9 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

 

 

I'm privy to sex assault investigations occurring in the military and we're seeing many cases these days that are based on inability to consent based on intoxication.  Many aren't predatory cases.  Many are cases of boy meets girl, boy and girl have a few drinks, boy and girl go back to room and then the next day, girl (mostly girl) regrets decision and files allegations based on her being drunk.  By law, she has a case.  But by law, he was also intoxicated so why is he to blame and how is he not also victim? 

 

This exact scenario happens A LOT.  I only bring this up because the lack of prosecution skews the numbers to what might look like false allegations but are really just not prosecutable. 

 

To be clear, I'm not relating this to the case on the cruise ship.

Initiation of intimacy has to be one of the most delicate of human interactions.  Obviously abusive initiations are despicable — but if everyone waited until someone flashed a green light before touching someone, the human race would have died out thousands of generations ago.

[clo]

22 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Initiation of intimacy has to be one of the most delicate of human interactions.  Obviously abusive initiations are despicable — but if everyone waited until someone flashed a green light before touching someone, the human race would have died out thousands of generations ago.

BUT, the times are changing.  Somebody's going to explain this better than I (anybody). You can get all the way up to the very last second but if either party says "no."  Then NO.  And if the other person doesn't stop then IMO it's rape.