Exaggerated or Not?

[Aquahound]

13 minutes ago, clo said:

BUT, the times are changing.  Somebody's going to explain this better than I (anybody). You can get all the way up to the very last second but if either party says "no."  Then NO.  And if the other person doesn't stop then IMO it's rape.

 

The scenario I gave, though, did not include the word no.  It was all yes's until the feeling of regret set it.  That's where it gets complicated. 

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Initiation of intimacy has to be one of the most delicate of human interactions.  Obviously abusive initiations are despicable — but if everyone waited until someone flashed a green light before touching someone, the human race would have died out thousands of generations ago.

 

Actually I believe communication would solve a lot of consent issues. We have long had this idea that a sexual relationship is something you feel the vibe on. Problem is humans are not as good at feeling the vibe as we think we are and add intoxicants to the mix and it is a whole mess. I think there is nothing wrong with taking a moment to discuss the expectations the parties of a sexual encounter have. 

 

A lot of times the so called "regret situation" comes about because a woman wants to rescind her consent but feels she cannot. Unfortunately while everyone agrees no means no before a sexual encounter in the middle of one we don't seem to be as accepting of it. If a woman a does express doubt men tend to respond with "I'm here, ready and you can't leave me like this" putting the guilt on women for changing their mind and pressuring them to go through with the encounter even though they don't want to. 

 

I do think if we created a culture of more open communication around sexual encounters it might be a start to give women more confidence to express how they really feel in those situations and perhaps it might help men think about their behaviour if they knew how intimidated the women are feeling. 

[clo]

11 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Actually I believe communication would solve a lot of consent issues. We have long had this idea that a sexual relationship is something you feel the vibe on. Problem is humans are not as good at feeling the vibe as we think we are and add intoxicants to the mix and it is a whole mess. I think there is nothing wrong with taking a moment to discuss the expectations the parties of a sexual encounter have. 

 

A lot of times the so called "regret situation" comes about because a woman wants to rescind her consent but feels she cannot. Unfortunately while everyone agrees no means no before a sexual encounter in the middle of one we don't seem to be as accepting of it. If a woman a does express doubt men tend to respond with "I'm here, ready and you can't leave me like this" putting the guilt on women for changing their mind and pressuring them to go through with the encounter even though they don't want to. 

 

I do think if we created a culture of more open communication around sexual encounters it might be a start to give women more confidence to express how they really feel in those situations and perhaps it might help men think about their behaviour if they knew how intimidated the women are feeling. 

I usually try to quote just a small part of a post but every word of what you wrote resonates with me.  I've alluded to this here but would like to ask if anyone has learned anything new.  Thanks again.

[ilikeanswers]

59 minutes ago, Aquahound said:

The scenario I gave, though, did not include the word no.  It was all yes's until the feeling of regret set it.  That's where it gets complicated. 

 

That is part of the problem. Many times a woman can feel intimidated to say no. There was a high profile case last year where the woman admitted she never articulated the word "no" because she thought doing so would make him aggressive so she tried to express her lack of consent through body language (like I said humans not as good at reading the vibe as we think). The fact a lot of women would force themselves to go through something as intimate as a sexual act rather than have a confrontation speaks to a lot of the societal issues that come from gender inequality.

 

One of tactics women use in order to "protect themselves" is to be extra polite to men who give them unwanted attention. So instead of telling men upfront that they have no interest they feel it is safer to entertain the unwanted flirtations till they can make an excuse to leave. It just shows how little power women think they have in society. 

Edited September 15, 2019 by ilikeanswers

[brabrant10]

This is deplorable that this young girl found herself in such a situation. Was she sitting at a bar

and the bartender witnessed her being given alcohol by adult men, and failed to intervene. I feel more likely the girl was in a distant lounger and alcohol was being brought to her. Many have posted where were her responsible family members and it was mentioned that many fifteen year olds roam the ship by their selves . If that is the case and the parents felt she was old enough and responsible enough to be off by herself than she should have been responsible enough not to accept drinks from strangers. I'm sure she was well aware as an minor she definitely should not have been drinking. I am pretty sure she was not held down and the alcohol was poured down her throat.  In either case the responsible men definitely need to be prosecuted for the heinous crime, but I am not convinced that the crew staff was a witness to it.

[clo]

6 minutes ago, brabrant10 said:

I am pretty sure she was not held down and the alcohol was poured down her throat.

Why are you "pretty sure"?

[brabrant10]

It just stands to reason that anyone witnessing  a situation where a woman was physically being restrained and someone was attempting to forcibly make the woman drink something, that person would intervene or summons someone else. If you see something you say something. 

[Bloodgem]

2 hours ago, brabrant10 said:

This is deplorable that this young girl found herself in such a situation. Was she sitting at a bar

and the bartender witnessed her being given alcohol by adult men, and failed to intervene.

There are conflicting reports about what happened to the girl before being lead to the cabin.

 

https://www.ibtimes.com/cruise-ship-passenger-gets-gang-raped-royal-caribbean-aware-sexual-assault-epidemic-2808984 reports 'she was sitting at the ship’s bar when a group of men surrounded her and offered her alcohol until she became “highly intoxicated, obviously drunk, disoriented, and unstable” and “obviously incapacitated.”'

 

https://miami.cbslocal.com/2019/07/24/royal-caribbean-lawsuit-gang-rape/ reports she 'was on a Royal Caribbean cruise in late 2015 with her two sisters and grandparents when nearly a dozen male passengers bought alcoholic drinks for her in a lounge and other public areas of the ship.'

 

 

[Bloodgem]

7 hours ago, Aquahound said:

 

 

I'm privy to sex assault investigations occurring in the military and we're seeing many cases these days that are based on inability to consent based on intoxication.  Many aren't predatory cases.  Many are cases of boy meets girl, boy and girl have a few drinks, boy and girl go back to room and then the next day, girl (mostly girl) regrets decision and files allegations based on her being drunk.  By law, she has a case.  But by law, he was also intoxicated so why is he to blame and how is he not also victim? 

 

This exact scenario happens A LOT.  I only bring this up because the lack of prosecution skews the numbers to what might look like false allegations but are really just not prosecutable. 

 

To be clear, I'm not relating this to the case on the cruise ship.

Thank you for your insight. 

 

I must admit I was thinking of cases like the one I have linked below, when I mentioned about false allegations.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-48693800

 

Before anyone says, yes I know these type of cases are rare. I also know this thread is about men raping a young girl. 

[navybankerteacher]

8 hours ago, clo said:

BUT, the times are changing.  Somebody's going to explain this better than I (anybody). You can get all the way up to the very last second but if either party says "no."  Then NO.  And if the other person doesn't stop then IMO it's rape.

Of course “no” does (and always should) mean NO.

 

Just when, at what stage, of the interaction is “the very last second”?

[clo]

9 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course “no” does (and always should) mean NO.

 

Just when, at what stage, of the interaction is “the very last second”?

Good point, buddy.  And I don't think there's a single "very last second" which complicates the whole thing.

[SRF]

On 9/10/2019 at 9:09 AM, cruisemom42 said:

 

A very large anonymous self-reported survey among teens found that about one-third of 8th graders had tried alcohol. Eighth graders are 13-14 years old. So I'm okay with my statement.

 

My son, who just graduated college a couple of years ago is replete with stories of kids he encountered at school who had never had a drink before their college days with sometimes hilarious and sometimes quite terrifying (at least as a parent) results.

 

Yes, and even with an "anonymous" survey, the kids always told the truth.

 

Yes, there are those they did not try alcohol before college, or even later.  But they are in the small minority.

[navybankerteacher]

18 hours ago, clo said:

Good point, buddy.  And I don't think there's a single "very last second" which complicates the whole thing.

Of course, a series of consecutive (increasingly approvingly) "yesses"  to a series of questions seriously complicates -- 

shall we go for a drink?

you want another?

shall we go back to my place?

want to sit here?

can we take this off?

shall we go into my bedroom?

OK if we slide these off?

 

[clo]

20 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, a series of consecutive (increasingly approvingly) "yesses"  to a series of questions seriously complicates -- 

shall we go for a drink?

you want another?

shall we go back to my place?

want to sit here?

can we take this off?

shall we go into my bedroom?

OK if we slide these off?

 

There's a column on Slate, Dear Prudence.  It's an advice column but a VERY, VERY 21st century one.  They get questions regarding this.  There are people who don't like to be touched on the shoulder.  There are those who consider a kiss on the cheek at the end of a date offensive.  Not saying, of course, that that's rape.  But offense is in the eye of the person who's offended.  I even try to be careful at the tender age of 72.  I'm a Southerner and probably too much of a toucher these days.

 

I like this column a lot so here's a link if anyone is interested.

https://slate.com/human-interest/dear-prudence

[electro]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, a series of consecutive (increasingly approvingly) "yesses"  to a series of questions seriously complicates -- 

shall we go for a drink?

you want another?

shall we go back to my place?

want to sit here?

can we take this off?

shall we go into my bedroom?

OK if we slide these off?

 

A "NO"  to any of the last 3 is not complicated nor negated by a "yes" to any of the questions that proceeded it!

Edited September 16, 2019 by electro

[mjkacmom]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course, a series of consecutive (increasingly approvingly) "yesses"  to a series of questions seriously complicates -- 

shall we go for a drink?

you want another?

shall we go back to my place?

want to sit here?

can we take this off?

shall we go into my bedroom?

OK if we slide these off?

 

Actually I know a number of divorced women who are dating, and these questions are something they get asked a lot. It appears the dating world has changed, guys don’t make a move without asking permission first.

[clo]

13 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

guys don’t make a move without asking permission first.

Smart guys.  And the women you know have good taste.

[DarrenM]

I quite like the fact that we are all equal now. I used to hate having to ask a lass out or to dance. Rejection was embarrassing and did nowt for your confidence.

 

I am unsure if her accepting the dance wasn't worse though. 

 

I hate dancing and am so far outside my comfort zone I want the ground to swallow me up.

 

These days the lasses are just as forward as the lads and that's how it should always have been.

 

How did we ever have  a society that put men first?

 

Our history is pretty appalling really.

[DarrenM]

And being British I can definitely say our past was pretty shocking generally.

[navybankerteacher]

56 minutes ago, electro said:

A "NO"  to any of the last 3 is not complicated nor negated by a "yes" to any of the questions that proceeded it!

56 minutes ago, electro said:

Agreed — but would you think that a “YES” to the third to last and second to last would at least complicate things?

 

You get into a gray area - sort of like those situations in which a dropped fiancée has successfully sued her ex for breach of contract after rescinding his proposal of marriage.

[DarrenM]

It's not complicated at all. Even if you get right to the point of "doing it" or even starting, if you hear the word stop or no, you stop. There is no grey area. 

 

Even the dumbest people understand stop and no.

[navybankerteacher]

18 minutes ago, DarrenM said:

It's not complicated at all. Even if you get right to the point of "doing it" or even starting, if you hear the word stop or no, you stop. There is no grey area. 

 

Even the dumbest people understand stop and no.

 

18 minutes ago, DarrenM said:

It's not complicated at all. Even if you get right to the point of "doing it" or even starting, if you hear the word stop or no, you stop. There is no grey area. 

 

Even the dumbest people understand stop and no.

However, apparently not yes.

 

But why stop at ***** - shouldn’t one want to wait for the results of a pregnancy test?

 

Seriously though, an intelligent man should probably not go any further than a handshake with the sort of control-minded flibbitygibbit who retains the option to say “no”  after repeatedly saying yes, even at the point of “doing it” (which presumably includes while “doing it”).

[DarrenM]

If you hear the words stop, or no, you stop right?

 

I am not sure how else that can be explained.

 

Its not monoploy, you dont get a free pass to go.

 

Just because you were given the green light. Everyone can change their minds. Even fellas.

Edited September 16, 2019 by DarrenM

[electro]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

 

However, apparently not yes.

 

But why stop at ***** - shouldn’t one want to wait for the results of a pregnancy test?

 

Seriously though, an intelligent man should probably not go any further than a handshake with the sort of control-minded flibbitygibbit who retains the option to say “no”  after repeatedly saying yes, even at the point of “doing it” (which presumably includes while “doing it”).

You're missing the point that it is not one sided control, men also " retain the option to say “no”  after repeatedly saying yes, even at the point of “doing it” (which presumably includes while “doing it”)." The main difference is that men can just stop when if they decide to, they don't have to say "no or stop" and hope that their partner complies.