Exaggerated or Not?

[geoffrywillhardt]

1 hour ago, DarrenM said:

You really believe that someone that has been sexually assaulted is in some way responsible?

 

You genuinely believe that?

 

My only hope is that you are not a high court judge. God help us all if you are.

 

 

answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power, control, or management. Yeah I'd say by definition she she is in some way responsible. It stated they bought her multiple rounds in public areas of the ship. Therefore she was allowing them to buy her drinks and consuming them over a period of time. She didn't go to a crew member and say she wasn't old enough to legally drink, she didn't ask for help. She did have some power, control, or management of the situation. She could have not gotten drunk. We live in a society today where everyone wants to remove personal responsibility in favor of blaming other people for poor choices they made. I do believe the men who raped her should be held accountable for there actions as well, and the cruise line should be held accountable for allowing an under age girl to consume alcohol. The parents should also be held accountable for allowing there child to be unsupervised, like it or not until the child turns 18 she is there responsibility.  But to say that she bears no responsibility for her actions... Come on. 

1 hour ago, DarrenM said:

And I am so glad you are not saying she deserved it.  That will make her feel much better about the assault.

Years of counseling and time will hopefully maker her feel better and cope with what happened. Hopefully she will also use the experience to help educate others or at the very least her children some day as to the ways to avoid these situations and defend themselves against other possible assaults. 

 

I may sound cold and callous but that is not my intent. My intent is to merely bring to attention the fact that multiple factors led to this happening. To think and teach our children that they should be able to go get drunk without concern or live life in a reckless manner without fear of consequence is naive and does nothing to help them, it only harms them.     

[calliopecruiser]

41 minutes ago, ReneeFLL said:

they are saying her being drunk contributed to her being assaulted.

 

And they're wrong......Being drunk made it easier for them to assault her, but she didn't contribute to her own assault.  A person who doesn't fight back isn't contributing to her/his own assault.  A person who dresses in a certain way isn't contributing to her/his own assault.   A person who doesn't leave an abusive spouse isn't contributing to her/his own assault.  A child who doesn't tell anyone about concerns isn't contributing to her/his sexual assault.   Criminals may take advantage of situations, but that doesn't mean the victim was a contributor to the crime. 

[geoffrywillhardt]

50 minutes ago, calliopecruiser said:

 

And they're wrong......Being drunk made it easier for them to assault her, but she didn't contribute to her own assault.  A person who doesn't fight back isn't contributing to her/his own assault.  A person who dresses in a certain way isn't contributing to her/his own assault.   A person who doesn't leave an abusive spouse isn't contributing to her/his own assault.  A child who doesn't tell anyone about concerns isn't contributing to her/his sexual assault.   Criminals may take advantage of situations, but that doesn't mean the victim was a contributor to the crime. 

help to cause or bring about...yeah I would say her being drunk helped cause or bring about the assault. Also lumping all of these into one blanket statement doesn't help. They are all different situations.

 

This is another one of those naive beliefs that don't help. In a perfect world none of these things would happen but it's not a perfect world and people need to be encouraged to speak up, leave, fight back, and generally not be afraid to defend themselves from predators. 

[calliopecruiser]

52 minutes ago, geoffrywillhardt said:

They are all different situations.

But they all have the same thing in common: the victims did not contribute to their assault.   There can be very normal and healthy reasons for doing all of those things (not fighting back, not telling someone) and none of them make the victim a contributor to her/his assault. 

 

Was she stupid?  Yes.  Was she a contributor to the crime?  No.

 

[clo]

10 hours ago, DarrenM said:

I wonder what stupid thing they had done to deserve the consequence that happened?

Like hang out with their parish priest 😞 

[electro]

4 hours ago, geoffrywillhardt said:

help to cause or bring about...yeah I would say her being drunk helped cause or bring about the assault. Also lumping all of these into one blanket statement doesn't help. They are all different situations.

 

This is another one of those naive beliefs that don't help. In a perfect world none of these things would happen but it's not a perfect world and people need to be encouraged to speak up, leave, fight back, and generally not be afraid to defend themselves from predators. 

The only thing people need to do when being attacked/ assaulted is survive! Some times that means not fighting back.

[clo]

13 minutes ago, electro said:

The only thing people need to do when being attacked/ assaulted is survive! Some times that means not fighting back.

If I got to choose between being raped and being murdered, I choose rape.  Every time.

[electro]

5 minutes ago, clo said:

If I got to choose between being raped and being murdered, I choose rape.  Every time.

Exactly, and we need to learn to trust our instincts on what is the best course of action in any given situation.

That is hard enough for an adult to do but people here seem to think that a 15 yr old should have mastered that skill!

[clo]

3 minutes ago, electro said:

Exactly, and we need to learn to trust our instincts on what is the best course of action in any given situation.

That is hard enough for an adult to do but people here seem to think that a 15 yr old should have mastered that skill!

I stopped reading this thread shortly after it began and only returned recently.  Has anyone said that "the punishment doesn't suit the crime."  Because a 15 y.o. made some bad choices she has some participation in this crime?  BS.

[Toofarfromthesea]

13 hours ago, DarrenM said:

I have no idea what you are really implying here. Maybe I am not intelligent enough.

 

There have been many reported cases of childeren being sexually assaulted down the years, the majority of whom were not drunk, nor had seemingly done anything wrong whatsoever. I wonder what stupid thing they had done to deserve the consequence that happened?

 

I can think of no reason, whether getting stupidly drunk, or any other stupid behaviour, that deserves a consequence like this thread is about.

 

Some utterly bizarre comments on this thread. Way beyond me.

 

 

 

Maybe you're not.  Consequences for stupidity have nothing to do with 'deserved'.  And no one said that every bad thing that happens is related to the victim doing something stupid.  

You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with reality.  And reality can sometimes hand out some pretty harsh consequences for stupidity, sometimes consequences that are way out of proportion to the level of stupidity.  No one 'deserves' to be raped, or murdered, or robbed, or assaulted, but that doesn't mean people should not act in a way to reduce their vulnerability to being raped, murdered, robbed, or assaulted. 

[Toofarfromthesea]

38 minutes ago, electro said:

Exactly, and we need to learn to trust our instincts on what is the best course of action in any given situation.

That is hard enough for an adult to do but people here seem to think that a 15 yr old should have mastered that skill!

 

And maybe that is why parents shouldn't give 15 year olds free rein on a cruise ship?  Again, it is not about deserving, it is not about justice, it is not about how you wish thing were, it is about reality.  It is about the world being the way it is, not the way we might like it to be.  In a perfect world a 15 year old could spend the whole cruise stark naked and nothing would happen.  In a perfect world, not the world we actually live in.

[navybankerteacher]

I do not think anyone is saying that the victim was  responsible - but stupid decisions made by the victim exposed her to abuses which most probably would not have otherwise occurred.

 

If someone puts himself/herself in harm’s way he/she is increasing the likelihood of that harm occurring to him/her.

 

This is why responsible parents try to imbue their offspring with common sense before setting them loose.

 

Pointing this out does not in any way lessen the guilt of the abusers - but trying to ignore it might possibly contribute to other abuses.

 

[navybankerteacher]

58 minutes ago, clo said:

I stopped reading this thread shortly after it began and only returned recently.  Has anyone said that "the punishment doesn't suit the crime."  Because a 15 y.o. made some bad choices she has some participation in this crime?  BS.

She has not had “participation in this crime” —- but, given the details of this particular crime, can you claim that the crime would have even taken place had she not “made some bad choices”?

[clo]

7 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

She has not had “participation in this crime” —- but, given the details of this particular crime, can you claim that the crime would have even taken place had she not “made some bad choices”?

A whole lot of people in this world made some bad choices who don't get the finger pointing that women sometimes get.

[DarrenM]

sorry people, but there are some loathsome individuals on this site.

 

How any of you can sleep at night after claiming a 15 year old female is in any way responsible for being sexually assaulted is sickening.

 

Next you will be telling us the perpertator should just get a warning, afterall, the victim was partly responsible.

 

Thank god I dont have a daughter, whilst there are folk with opinions like this around.

 

And I am being patronised by comments like I am not dealing with reality. Uttely bizarre.

 

That 15 year old lass should have been able to walk around naked without being sexually assaulted.

 

Sexual assault of a minor is one of the most heinous crimes out there. The death penalty is too good for the perps.

[DarrenM]

2 hours ago, clo said:

A whole lot of people in this world made some bad choices who don't get the finger pointing that women sometimes get.

agreed. This whole thread is sick.

[DarrenM]

2 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

She has not had “participation in this crime” —- but, given the details of this particular crime, can you claim that the crime would have even taken place had she not “made some bad choices”?

Irrelevent.

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

35 minutes ago, DarrenM said:

Irrelevent.

 

 

Hardly — unless you think the topic of this thread is more about tips, or drink packages,  than what was introduced, and largely followed.

[ReneeFLL]

41 minutes ago, DarrenM said:

Irrelevent.

 

 

WHAT??? Of course it's relevant. Had she not allowed herself to get drunk then she probably wouldn't have got back to the room with them. Doing this made it easier for them to assault her so she DID contribute to the bad situation. She wasn't asking for this nor should it have happened to her, but she contributed to it.

 

Question - Do you think she would've gone back to the room with strangers if she was sober?

[ReneeFLL]

4 hours ago, clo said:

I stopped reading this thread shortly after it began and only returned recently.  Has anyone said that "the punishment doesn't suit the crime."  Because a 15 y.o. made some bad choices she has some participation in this crime?  BS.

Of course the punishment doesn't fit the crime. She NEVER should have been raped in the first place no matter what she did. All I'm saying is that since she allowed herself to get drunk and go back to the room with all these strange men then doing that contributed to the situation. Don't get me wrong, I will ALWAYS blame the men first because what she did gives them absolutely no right to do what they did to her. NEVER SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

[ReneeFLL]

1 hour ago, DarrenM said:

sorry people, but there are some loathsome individuals on this site.......

No, they just see the bigger picture for what it is. There are also some people on here that need a huge reality check.

[clo]

Compare this to this thread:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/06/us/sexual-assault-brock-turner-stanford/index.html

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, DarrenM said:

...

 

That 15 year old lass should have been able to walk around naked without being sexually assaulted.

 

...

Too bad:  you missed the top score for political correctness for not adding: “... while  falling down drunk”.

[SRF]

On 9/8/2019 at 1:58 PM, cruisemom42 said:

 

I see you are from the UK where exposure to alcohol often happens at an earlier age. 

 

In the US the legal drinking age is 21 years, and many people do not serve alcohol commonly at meals at home and thus facilitate an earlier introduction to it.

 

So yes, it is entirely possible that it was her first exposure to alcohol.

 

Hmm, and the Easter Bunny and Santa still visit your house every year?

 

Children do not eat every meal at home.  And they are with others at times other than meal times.

 

Possible? Yes.  Probable?  NO

[ReneeFLL]

On 9/6/2019 at 3:08 PM, ReneeFLL said:

........Another thing, if the culprits are found guilty I think they probably won't be punished enough imo. Look at the college kid in California. He only got 3 months for raping someone. I think the judge was dismissed, but I hope he faces bigger consequences. Makes me wonder if he didn't get a kickback or something. It would also be nice if they could add more time or penalties to the kids sentence, but I know that won't happen.

 

2 hours ago, clo said:

Compare this to this thread:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/06/us/sexual-assault-brock-turner-stanford/index.html

I had posted about that previously but I was wrong about the amount of time he served. It's disgusting that he only got 6 months and I don't care if it's his first time. What the heck does that have to do with it? The father saying it was "only 20 minutes of action". What the hell? He wasn't playing sports, he was raping someone. Great example he's setting for his son. Neither one wants him to take responsibility for his actions. I'd like to see them both meet up with Big Bubba and see what they think of their "only 20 minutes of action"!!! I'm still in disbelief that his father called it that. I hope he gets a ***** load of backlash. Ok, sorry I'm going to get off of my rant now.

 

Also, what a STUPID judge. Wonder if he has a daughter and she was raped? Would he only give the perp 6 months? Hell no!!

Edited September 10, 2019 by ReneeFLL