Freaking out a bit - keto questions

[Jasonmom]

I think I've been in keto (not really sure how to use that word) for over a month now.  Before that I had taken 10 days off while staying with brother.  Before that I believe keto for about a month.  So far I've lost around 24lb.

 

I was looking on-line to try to see if I should come off diet a before my cruise in 2 weeks.  I know when I was at my brothers I didn't feel the best while there and was wondering if it had anything to do with coming off diet.

 

Well, while looking it does talk about trying to come off slow because of side effects.  I was wondering if anyone out there could pass on any advise on that front.

 

Also, and this is where I'm freaking out, the article I read discussed hair loss.  I have been thinking my hair was feeling thinner over the past two weeks.  I want to get my hair colored before the cruise and have been watching the roots growing out.  What do any of you know about this?  Has it happened to any of you?  Am I now going to be able to go back on my diet when I get back from the cruise?  Should I not get hair colored in case it causes more hair loss?  Once I start eating carbs again will it grow back?  WILL IT GROW BACK 😫 ?

 

(I once took a medication that caused me to loose 1/2 my hair but the benefits were such that I didn't care and it did mostly grow back) 

 

 Please help.  I am really freaking out.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Jasonmom

[RobinCruiser]

Hi JasonMom, 

 

I have not done strict Keto myself but one of my colleagues has been and has been in Ketosis for 2 months. She did notice hair loss as a result of the diet and said that it is a known side effect. She has thin hair to begin with due to meds she takes for Lupus so she said her hair loss was minimal but definitely noticeable. I asked her if it will grow back when she stops the diet and she said maybe, but she's not sure. 

 

She also went off the diet for her 22nd wedding anniversary - they went out for Chinese food a couple months back and she was very ill - tummy problems for days. So If you have been strict, I would try to ease out of ketosis a week before the cruise if you don't plan to stay true Keto, or you may spend half your cruise in the loo!

 

Sorry, I can't offer any more help. I do a low carb but not strict enough to be actual Keto.

 

[onetimearoundtheworld]

As losing weight is only about calories in vs calories out, if a nutrition plan has negative side effects on you use a different one. Everything else is not healthy and a huge warning sign of your body that something is not okay. 

[edcat]

Hi, I've been keto since Oct 2012 and re the hair loss it's very common as the body goes into shock with the rapid withdrawal of carbs and your hair stops growing. About three to four months in you feel like your loosing your hair but it's actually the new growth pushing the old dead growth out.   My hair fell out alarmingly around Feb 2013 but when I went to the Dr she could see all the baby hairs growing through.

As for going off keto on your cruise it's doable but you will feel yuck as you will leave ketosis and by reintroducing those carbs (processed food) your poor body will feel yucky and probably let you know with tiredness, headaches or your bowels doing random things.

I tend to raise my carb amount from under 20grams per day up to 50 grams per day when on holiday.  So I drink beer, wine and eat a few fries or potato chips when I feel like it.  I'll have some ice cream but not three cones in one day.   I can't have any bread or fried foods as when I went keto and then tried to reintroduce wheat products I became very ill.  Guess what I'm saying is stay keto on holiday but have a few treats.  Just stay near a loo if highly processed treat as sometimes it hits hard and fast ... yikes. 

[Jasonmom]

4 hours ago, edcat said:

Hi, I've been keto since Oct 2012 and re the hair loss it's very common as the body goes into shock with the rapid withdrawal of carbs and your hair stops growing. About three to four months in you feel like your loosing your hair but it's actually the new growth pushing the old dead growth out.   My hair fell out alarmingly around Feb 2013 but when I went to the Dr she could see all the baby hairs growing through.

As for going off keto on your cruise it's doable but you will feel yuck as you will leave ketosis and by reintroducing those carbs (processed food) your poor body will feel yucky and probably let you know with tiredness, headaches or your bowels doing random things.

I tend to raise my carb amount from under 20grams per day up to 50 grams per day when on holiday.  So I drink beer, wine and eat a few fries or potato chips when I feel like it.  I'll have some ice cream but not three cones in one day.   I can't have any bread or fried foods as when I went keto and then tried to reintroduce wheat products I became very ill.  Guess what I'm saying is stay keto on holiday but have a few treats.  Just stay near a loo if highly processed treat as sometimes it hits hard and fast ... yikes. 

 

Wow, you've done keto since 2012.  Just how much weight did you loose?  Just Wow.  I'm having problems now with craving the stuff I can't have. 

 

 

 

Anyway, I know one of my biggest issues will be alcoholic drinks.  I love Malibu rum and pineapple juice or a good pina colada.  Just a few of those and I'd be way over allotted carbs.  And I will probably have more than a few a day. 

 

I will not eat any bread.  Will only have one desert a day.  Will keep away from pasta.  But I'm sure my weight gain will be enough to make me cringe.

 

[lisiamc]

DH and I have been doing Keto since April.  I’m at my goal weight and maintaining since late September, and he’s got a few more pounds to lose.  
 

In July we took a back-to-back-to-back cruise, and were on the ship for 45 days in total.  We managed to stay Keto for the whole cruise.  It turned out to be a little trickier than I thought it would be, but after a week or so, I had my strategies figured out.  I discovered that the menu isn’t nearly descriptive enough, and lots of things come with unexpected sauces or breadcrumbs, so I had to learn to ask more questions before ordering.  The buffet can be easier, because you can see what’s on the food.  Our ship had a pool grill that did great burgers at lunch, and steaks and other grilled meats at night, and that was the easiest place to get a meal that met all of our requirements.  There were no surprise sauces, glazes or marinades, and if we asked for extra butter, or olive oil, there was no problem.  
 

We bought 92% dark chocolate and also nuts ashore to have with us, as there are not usually many nuts served on board, and never chocolate that dark.  I found that even sugar-free mixers for cocktails were too sweet, so I drank bourbon on the rocks, and DH had vodka and lime.  We didn’t try the sugar-free desserts, as they often have lots of other Keto-unfriendly things in them, and we just don’t have a sweet tooth any more, but we did often share the cheese board.

 

We both got off the ship lighter than when we got on, for the first time ever!  

 

Unrelated to cruising, I did feel like I was shedding more hair than usual for a while, but I paid closer attention to my protein levels and that soon stopped.

 

Good luck with your diet, and with your cruise!

[crystalspin]

On 9/10/2019 at 2:13 PM, Jasonmom said:

 Please help.  I am really freaking out.

Hi JM --

 

Ignore the "calories in, calories out" theory; it has been discredited for decades, or longer. Read Why We Get Fat (and what to do about it) by Gary Taubes for a technical but understandable explanation.

 

I think @edcat's description of the hair loss sounds spot on. You probably can follow the ridges in your fingernails at the same time (although I haven't). Remember that ketones are the energy source that we evolved to use! This is the diet you were meant to eat.

 

8oz of pineapple juice has ~30g of carbohydrate. Simple syrup has 14g per OUNCE (2TBSP). 

 

OTOH, cream of coconut/coconut cream has less than 1g/TBSP. As does lime juice. And of course, none in seltzer/soda water, diet coke, diet sprite, etc. OR in distilled spirits. Rum-n-diet-coke with a lime is a Cuba Libra. Experiment at home and find what concoction (of things in the barman's repertoire) are appealing to you.

 

Dr.Atkins himself said that alcohol itself will not put you out of ketosis -- it's the mixers, residual or added sugars, and the grains & malts in beers/ales that do it

 

I just read a website on staying low-carb on a cruise, and it was all: "Avoid the buffet; eat in dining room." dr'spin and I found the opposite to be true: that it was easier to control portions in the Lido than the MDR. And the Lido desserts are so awful it's not a big deal to skip them! 

 

@lisiamchas good advice if you do eat in the dining room. When we have a table for two, we refuse the bread basket and have (split) the cheese plate for dessert. The website (that I didn't really like) thought that sugar-free puddings or mousses were lower carb than the cake-y ones. But I'm with Lisi -- they tend to taste just too sweet!

Edited December 19, 2019 by crystalspin

[onetimearoundtheworld]

7 hours ago, crystalspin said:

Ignore the "calories in, calories out" theory; it has been discredited for decades, or longer. Read Why We Get Fat (and what to do about it) by Gary Taubes for a technical but understandable explanation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_law_of_thermodynamics

It is science. Most people underestimate the difficulty in correctly measure, calculate and assume energy intake and even more difficult so energy expenditure. I haven't seen any study that suggests you can sustainable gain weight on a caloric deficit or gain weight on a caloric surplus. 

 

Quote

The indicated method for energy balance maintenance is the prevention of overeating and the most successful method for weight loss is eating less.

 

https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/article/68/3/148/1910457

 

Or a more recent one

Quote

Review of the literature does suggest that some fad diets and exercise plans do lead to weight loss; however, the studies are quite limited and are all based on the concept of caloric restriction.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11894-017-0603-8

 

imho

• eat in a moderate caloric surplus/deficit depending on your goal
• eat non-processed clean foods
• make sure to get the needed macro and micro nutrients
• exercise for cardiovascular health and functional strength

Thats it.

Edited December 19, 2019 by onetimearoundtheworld

[lisiamc]

Humans are so much more complex than cars or other machines that simple thermodynamics can be misleading. If you haven’t read any of Gary Taubes’ books as Crystalspin suggests, you might find them interesting. Also The Obesity Code by Dr Jason Fung is very helpful. The whole calorie deficit idea is very much complicated by human hormones, especially insulin. 
 

The advice we’ve been given for the last 40-50 years, “eat less, move more” has resulted in record levels of obesity.  I don’t buy the theory that there’s just been a lapse of willpower in every country following a diet similar to the Standard American Diet. All calories are not created equal. 

[onetimearoundtheworld]

43 minutes ago, lisiamc said:

Humans are so much more complex than cars or other machines that simple thermodynamics can be misleading. If you haven’t read any of Gary Taubes’ books as Crystalspin suggests, you might find them interesting. Also The Obesity Code by Dr Jason Fung is very helpful. The whole calorie deficit idea is very much complicated by human hormones, especially insulin. 
 

The advice we’ve been given for the last 40-50 years, “eat less, move more” has resulted in record levels of obesity.  I don’t buy the theory that there’s just been a lapse of willpower in every country following a diet similar to the Standard American Diet. All calories are not created equal. 

 

Not that I will spend any money on books like this. Lets be honest they are written for a specific audience to make them buy them. If there is a referenced peer reviewed study that shows people losing weight while maintaining a caloric surplus as long as it is with "good calories" I am happy to reconsider. 

 

A calorie is a calorie, as it is defined as the energy needed for a specific reaction. What is not the same is the nutritional value of foods that have equal calories. 

 

I don't mind when people follow whatever trend. But spreading the idea that losing weight on a ketogenic diet actually comes from cutting out carbs on itself and not from changing the caloric intake by removing caloric heavy "empty calories" with no nutritional value and more important that are not filling and induce overeating and replacing them through protein or dietary fiber which has the opposite effect is just plain wrong.

 

That is why you can have the same effect when changing from a "I don't care diet" to a planned paleo/vegan/clean eating/... diet as soon as you start being aware of what you eat and how much and removing highly processed foods you will have a positive effect. Because the caloric intake changes. Yes it is so easy. 

[crystalspin]

By your logic, a highly processed calorie is the same as a "clean" calorie. You can't have it both ways.

But we wouldn't want you to spend money on something that would challenge your established beliefs.

[onetimearoundtheworld]

1 hour ago, crystalspin said:

By your logic, a highly processed calorie is the same as a "clean" calorie. You can't have it both ways.

But we wouldn't want you to spend money on something that would challenge your established beliefs.

 

The graphic shows exactly that. A calorie is a calorie.

Quote

the energy needed to raise the temperature of 1 kilogram of water through 1 °C, equal to one thousand small calories and often used to measure the energy value of foods

 

A calorie never defines how healthy food is or how satisfying. 

 

But if the calories in doesn't matter you can safely triple the amount of non-carb or non processed food a day regardless of the calories without gaining weight, right? 😉

 

The "problem" of overeating on potato chips are not the carbs but that you already spend most of, or even the whole, caloric budget of the day and severely lack protein, vitamins, minerals and so much more nutrients important for the body. As you will then feel hungry and cranky you will eat additional food, aka more calories, having a caloric surplus and gaining weight. All because of the damn energy value measured in calories 

Edited December 20, 2019 by onetimearoundtheworld

[pacruise804]

23 hours ago, lisiamc said:

 

The advice we’ve been given for the last 40-50 years, “eat less, move more” has resulted in record levels of obesity.  I don’t buy the theory that there’s just been a lapse of willpower in every country following a diet similar to the Standard American Diet. All calories are not created equal. 

 

I'm 46 and don't remember the eat less/move more movement starting until the 90's (to be fair I may not have paid attention as a kid).  I do think in the last 30-40 years we have become a more sedentary society as a whole while also increasing our food intake - especially of highly processed food.

[crystalspin]

Demonizing fat in the diet actually started in the late 50's with some poorly done studies, which were seized on by the sugar industry: 

"The sugar industry paid scientists in the 1960s to play down the link between sugar and heart disease and promote saturated fat as the culprit instead, newly released historical documents show."

from:

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/13/well/eat/how-the-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-to-fat.html

 

Additionally, this history: 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides

shows the evolution of the USDA guidelines from 1943 seven equal categories (all to have two servings each), to 1956 four categories (veg+fruit, milk, meat/protein, cereals) with cereals' guidelines doubling to four, to 1992's pyramid with its broad base of grain and its lonely peak of fats -- which has been tickered with but not much changed since then.

 

So you are right to say there was a change starting in the 90's. Although I swear I remember the triangle from my childhood, apparently is was the Basic Four instead. (I am 61.)

 

The current MyPlate.gov came to be on 2011; it has grains and vegetables as equal large portions, fruits and proteins as slightly smaller equal portions, and dairy as yet smaller portion off to the side. I haven't seen this catch on, but I am not in children's education. It seems like I still see the 90's pyramid reproduced most often.

 

The real question is, why do we let people (and their lobbies) with a financial interest in producing our food, tell us what to eat? The USDA does not care about our individual health but only in keeping the most and biggest food corporations profitable.

[lisiamc]

On 12/19/2019 at 11:18 PM, onetimearoundtheworld said:

 

The graphic shows exactly that. A calorie is a calorie.

A calorie never defines how healthy food is or how satisfying. 

 

But if the calories in doesn't matter you can safely triple the amount of non-carb or non processed food a day regardless of the calories without gaining weight, right? 😉

 

The "problem" of overeating on potato chips are not the carbs but that you already spend most of, or even the whole, caloric budget of the day and severely lack protein, vitamins, minerals and so much more nutrients important for the body. As you will then feel hungry and cranky you will eat additional food, aka more calories, having a caloric surplus and gaining weight. All because of the damn energy value measured in calories 

Our bodies are very good at not expending energy if it isn’t necessary, so some people’s metabolisms run on a very tight fuel setting, if you want to continue the machinery analogy.  What eating better-quality, lower-carb food CAN do is boost one’s metabolism, so that more calories are burned just maintaining the body.  Extreme boosts of activity are not needed.  I ate more calories per day in weight loss mode than I was previously eating in weight gain mode.  I give the Keto diet the credit for turning up my flame setting.

 

I know you’ve said you’re not interested in the books that have been mentioned here, but Dr Jason Fung explains the calorie/energy/metabolism relationship a lot better than I can.  He’s not a self-educated, crazed Keto diet crackpot, he’s a properly trained and qualified nephrologist, practising in Canada.

Edited December 21, 2019 by lisiamc

[onetimearoundtheworld]

25 minutes ago, lisiamc said:

What eating better-quality, lower-carb food CAN do is boost one’s metabolism, so that more calories are burned just maintaining the body.  

 

Actually you need to replace carbs through protein for that, the TEF of fat is lower than carbs:

 

"The thermic effect of food, also called diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT), is a metabolic response to food. Food intake results in a transient increase in energy expenditure attributable to the various steps of nutrient processing (i.e. digestion, absorption, transport, metabolism and storage of nutrients). The DIT is mostly indicated as percentage increase in energy expenditure over the basic metabolic rate (BMR). DIT values are highest for protein (~15-30%), followed by CHOs (~5-10%) and fat (~0-3%)"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4258944/

 

Which once again is the essence of calories in - calories out. 

 

Oh and I know Jason Fung. He is kind of famous for his rants on his blog and you can find responses on other website questioning his rants with quotes of actual studies easily. 

 

To get back to the origin of the discussion, as any caloric restrictive diet (low carb, low fat,...) works[1] when it is supplemented by behavioural changes and physical activity I don't think it is wise to encourage anyone to follow through with a diet that shows negative effects on the body. 

 

[1] https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/1900510?utm_source=Silverchair Information Systems&utm_medium=email

[lisiamc]

@onetimearoundtheworld, not everything works for every person, and I think finding a way of eating that one can maintain is key.  I’ve been eating Keto for nearly a year with my doctor’s blessing, since it’s sensible to make sure one’s doctor is on board.  It’s been a real game-changer for me.  I got to my goal weight, and have been maintaining happily for several months.    So I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree.  Happy holidays and happy cruising!

Edited December 21, 2019 by lisiamc

[sft429]

Once in ketosis I lose weight rapidly, maybe 5 pounds a week or more.  Getting to ketosis is the tricky part.  It can take me a month because every time I cheat it sets me back.  Once in ketosis I can cheat once a week or so.  And one thing I've heard about exercise...?  it just makes you hungrier and you eat more. 😀

[ForMyBoys2015]

I wanted to post since I just started on Keto but I'm doing through a Medical Weightloss program so they did blood work at the start and I meet w/ them weekly to talk through issues, struggles etc.   One thing they did highly recommend is adding a certain amount of fat to the diet.  They said if you go into ketosis and don't eat enough fat you will lose your hair.  They recommend I take a tablespoon of coconut oil in my coffee every morning and to add 4 tbspn of other high fact stuff throughout the day, like salad dressing, oil, butter and half and half.   

 

In 12 days I'm down 9 lbs and feeling well with very little cravings.   The Weighloss clinic does have a chef though that you can buy keto food from and the food is amazing so I think it will really help until I get into the hang of cooking some more interesting keto friend items.   

[bdrmeister]

Does Celebrity offer sugar free ice cream on their ships?

[lisiamc]

11 minutes ago, bdrmeister said:

Does Celebrity offer sugar free ice cream on their ships?

Yes, there’s at least one flavour every day, although I don’t think it’s particularly Keto-friendly.  I think there are still quite a few carbs from lactose and other things.  You’d have to ask on board to get the full info, probably.  They will bring you berries if you ask, although they tend to bring a huge portion, and there’s always my favourite, the cheese plate with no crackers.  Celebrity usually has some really good cheese.

[bdrmeister]

On 2/12/2020 at 4:48 PM, lisiamc said:

Yes, there’s at least one flavour every day, although I don’t think it’s particularly Keto-friendly.  I think there are still quite a few carbs from lactose and other things.  You’d have to ask on board to get the full info, probably.  They will bring you berries if you ask, although they tend to bring a huge portion, and there’s always my favourite, the cheese plate with no crackers.  Celebrity usually has some really good cheese.

Thanks!